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Featured Why I believe Jesus is the I AM

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Teritos, Feb 25, 2021.

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  1. Teritos

    Teritos Active Member

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    Exodus 3:13-14
    And Moses said to God, What is your name? Then God said to Moses, Ehyeh asher Ehyeh. And he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel EHYEH has sent me to you.

    In Hebrew the letter E is a prefix which means "I". The word HYEH means "to be". Combined, "EHYEH" means "I AM", translated into greek: EGO EIMI.

    John 8:57-59
    Then said the Jews to him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast seen Abraham? Jesus said to them: Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, EGO EIMI. Then they took up stones to stone him.
     
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  2. Nakosis

    Nakosis crystal soldier
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    EGO EIMI is not a code word for God.

    John equates Jesus as the Word made flesh and maybe Jesus did too. Jesus does seem to be saying he existed before Abraham. Doesn't necessarily mean he is claiming to be God.

    Jesus never directly claims to be God. Why beat around the burning bush?
     
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  3. Teritos

    Teritos Active Member

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    Very often Jesus said that he is God, just not in the way you imagine. But the Jews understood, they realized what Jesus claimed. If you want to recognize it, you need to have the mind of an ancient Jew.
     
  4. Rival

    Rival Ankh, Wedja, Seneb
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    This:

    Numbers 23:19,
    God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

    Hoshea 11:9,
    I will not execute my burning anger; I will not again destroy Ephraim; for I am God and not a man, the Holy One in your midst, and I will not come in wrath.
     
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  5. Nakosis

    Nakosis crystal soldier
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    Then why did so many of them reject him?
    Jews most of all, shouldn't Jesus have met their expectation? These were God's chosen people. Shouldn't they have been prepared for the coming of the one who chose them?
     
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  6. Teritos

    Teritos Active Member

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    Jesus is not an ordinary man, he is God's Image, he is the Incarnation of God, he is the only man who is Perfect.


    1 Kings 8:46
    For there is no man who does not sin.

    1 Peter 2:21-22
    Christ did no sin, neither was deception found in his mouth.
     
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  7. Rival

    Rival Ankh, Wedja, Seneb
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    I can count sins that Jesus did:

    He dishonoured his parents.

    He broke the Shabbat and taught others to do like.

    He used needless violence (whip in the Temple).
     
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  8. Hockeycowboy

    Hockeycowboy Well-Known Member
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    No, they did not.

    If they had, they would have accused him at his Sanhedrin trial of saying he was God.
    But never once, in any of the four Gospel accounts, did they accuse him of that! And they were looking for even false witnesses! No such ‘understanding’ was ever thought of. The Jews only accused him of saying he was “the Christ, the Son of God.”

    I’m really tired of this “I Am” abuse of interpretation, to further an agenda. At John 8:58, Jesus was simply saying he was alive before Abraham was born. The immediate context and the gospel contexts of the trial reveal it.

    Take care.

    BTW, welcome to RF!
     
    #8 Hockeycowboy, Feb 25, 2021
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  9. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Sorry...not so. The first part is correct as the Tanakh shows....

    "13 And Moses said to God, "Behold I come to the children of Israel, and I say to them, 'The God of your fathers has sent me to you,' and they say to me, 'What is His name?' what shall I say to them?" יגוַיֹּ֨אמֶר משֶׁ֜ה אֶל־הָֽאֱלֹהִ֗ים הִנֵּ֨ה אָֽנֹכִ֣י בָא֘ אֶל־בְּנֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵל֒ וְאָֽמַרְתִּ֣י לָהֶ֔ם אֱלֹהֵ֥י אֲבֽוֹתֵיכֶ֖ם שְׁלָחַ֣נִי אֲלֵיכֶ֑ם וְאָֽמְרוּ־לִ֣י מַה־שְּׁמ֔וֹ מָ֥ה אֹמַ֖ר אֲלֵהֶֽם:

    14 God said to Moses, "Ehyeh asher ehyeh (I will be what I will be)," and He said, "So shall you say to the children of Israel, 'Ehyeh (I will be) has sent me to you.'" ידוַיֹּ֤אמֶר אֱלֹהִים֙ אֶל־משֶׁ֔ה אֶֽהְיֶ֖ה אֲשֶׁ֣ר אֶֽהְיֶ֑ה וַיֹּ֗אמֶר כֹּ֤ה תֹאמַר֙ לִבְנֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵ֔ל אֶֽהְיֶ֖ה שְׁלָחַ֥נִי אֲלֵיכֶֽם:

    15 And God said further to Moses, "So shall you say to the children of Israel, 'The Lord God of your forefathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.' This is My name forever, and this is how I should be mentioned in every generation. טווַיֹּ֩אמֶר֩ ע֨וֹד אֱלֹהִ֜ים אֶל־משֶׁ֗ה כֹּ֣ה תֹאמַר֘ אֶל־בְּנֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵל֒ יְהֹוָ֞ה אֱלֹהֵ֣י אֲבֹֽתֵיכֶ֗ם אֱלֹהֵ֨י אַבְרָהָ֜ם אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִצְחָ֛ק וֵֽאלֹהֵ֥י יַֽעֲקֹ֖ב שְׁלָחַ֣נִי אֲלֵיכֶ֑ם זֶה־שְּׁמִ֣י לְעֹלָ֔ם וְזֶ֥ה זִכְרִ֖י לְדֹ֥ר דֹּֽר:"


    Please note that "Ehyeh asher ehyeh" means "I will be what I will be"....not "I AM". God's name never was "I AM", so Exodus 3:13-15 has no connection whatsoever to John 8:57-50...as has already been demonstrated to you, Jesus was answering a question about his age, not whether he was God or not. The Jews were trying to bring a blasphemy charge against him, but no one accused him of claiming to be God or Jesus would have been guilty as charged....but even by claiming God as his Father, to them he would be blaspheming. Jesus died as an innocent man.....not guilty of any breach of God's law...it would have been unthinkable!

    Do you know how many times Jesus said "I am" (ego eimi) without once claiming to be God? Seriously mate, you need to do your homework.

    By placing Jesus on the same level as his Father, Christendom has put another god in the Father's place....that is the greatest blasphemy of all....a clear breach of the first Commandment. (Exodus 20:3)

    Think about it....
     
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  10. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Nope...he did not do any of those things. This is the Jewish version, not what actually happened.

    He did not dishonor his parents, even though he did cause them some consternation. Trips to Jerusalem for festivals and such were a yearly event for him and his family. At the age of 12 Jesus was a mature young man who felt the need to question the teachers at the Temple, and to listen to their replies. His parents did not even miss him until well into their return journey. When they finally found him three days later, his reply to their concerns was "Why were you looking for me? Did you not know that I must be in the house of my Father?” (Luke 2:49) His parents knew that he was no ordinary 12 year old....so did the teachers at the Temple.

    He did not break the Sabbath....he broke the Pharisees rigid interpretation of God's law, like they did with all the rest, taking them to ridiculous extremes. As Jesus said, they 'taught the commands of men as doctrines'. (Mark 2:27)

    When he drove out the money changers with a whip, it wasn't used on the men but on the animals. They were selling livestock right there in the Temple area, and extorting money for the overpriced animals that they were selling for sacrifice, which is why Jesus called it a "den of thieves". He had every right to be angry.
     
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  11. Brian2

    Brian2 Well-Known Member

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    That does not mean that the Son of God, even though not a man, cannot become a man.
     
  12. Brian2

    Brian2 Well-Known Member

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    It is interesting that the Jews must have known that the Messiah would be and claim to be the Son of God, but that they still used that as a charge against Him.

    Wasn't it Jesus who claimed equality with God by calling Himself the Son of God. Surely the Jews knew what He meant, and Jesus did not deny it, but usually got Himself in deeper by elaborating on what He meant.
    The Jews should have honoured Him as they honoured the Father according to John 5.
    Thomas called Jesus his Lord and his God. Jesus did not correct him. The God of Thomas is our God and it would have been blasphemy for Thomas to call Jesus "my God".
    The Son of God is the God of Thomas.
    The Son of God has been given the name above all names. (Phil 2:9)
    Christians don't change the Bible and put in the word "other" before "names" so that the Bible agrees with their doctrine.
    Jesus is the stone of stumbling (1Peter 2:8) and this OT quote applies to God.
    There is no breaking of the first commandment except in the eyes of Jews and JWs.
    God is One, a compound One.
    Jesus is not another God and He does not take the place of the Father,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,that is a JW lie. It is JWs who are not monotheistic when it comes to Jesus.
    I think it is called Henotheism.
     
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  13. Teritos

    Teritos Active Member

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  14. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Since the Tanakh is the Jewish translation of their own scripture, I think I’ll take their word over any other translator, especially those biased towards the trinity. The KJV is very biased that way.
    Would you like to look at John 1:1 and tell me why “theos” is translated “God” there, but “Son” in verse 18?

    Jesus was answering a question about his age in John 8:56-59...
    I believe a more accurate rendering is....
    “Abraham your father rejoiced greatly at the prospect of seeing my day, and he saw it and rejoiced.” 57 Then the Jews said to him: “You are not yet 50 years old, and still you have seen Abraham?58 Jesus said to them: “Most truly I say to you, before Abraham came into existence, I have been.” 59 So they picked up stones to throw at him, but Jesus hid and went out of the temple.”

    He was plainly telling the Jews that he existed before Abraham.
     
    #14 Deeje, Feb 26, 2021
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2021
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  15. Teritos

    Teritos Active Member

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  16. Kelly of the Phoenix

    Kelly of the Phoenix Well-Known Member

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    But he does. Lots of times. Vandalism. Racism. Dishonoring his parents. Breaking the Sabbath. Assault. The Bible is bad about making claims and not backing it up.
     
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  17. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    Not really. It is "Ho On" that should be because the septuagint of exodus says "Egw eimi ho on" and obviously Ho On is the translation of what you are looking for. Just because John says "Egw Eimi" does not mean Exodus used that as Gods calling name. It is Ho on.

    Too much of inference here.
     
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  18. Teritos

    Teritos Active Member

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    EHYEH consists of the Prefix E which means "I" and of the word HYEH which means "to be"
    EHYEH means therefore "I AM".
    In greek the word for "I" is "Ego" and "Eimi" for "to be".

    E-HYEH
    EGO EIMI
    I AM

    We should use the Hebrew Scriptures as source and not the Septuagint, which even partially contradicts the Hebrew Scriptures.
     
  19. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    Thanks.

    But you didnt understand what I said.

    Please read the septuagint and you will understand what I am saying. I perfectly agree that you should use the Hebrew source, but to understand what I said you have to read the septuagint. You missed the point altogether.

    If you wish to discard anything that contradicts the Hebrew scripture, the septuagint, and most of the Bible translations, contradict the Hebrew scripture.

    Have a good day.
     
  20. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    You know what. I thought Ill just ask you.

    Since you said that you dont want to go to the septuagint, but you are using Egw Eimi form the NT, I have two questions.

    1. How would you translate Ehye Asher Ehye in to Koine Greek?
    2. Do you call God as Egw Eimi?
     
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