Why have Christians forgotten the fourth Commandment?

[AK4]

+++++++++++++++

Use your commonsense and think. One is condemned by breaking the Law. Jesus comes and expands the transgression into the realm of the spirit. Now, if one even thinks about breaking the Law, he has broken it. He is condemned for just thinking in his mind. So, what's the use for this so-called new covenant? We are better off the old fashion way, when condenation was accounted only for the deed and not the
thought. Viva Judaism that as long as we don't act upon our thought there is no harm done.

Ben :clap

Wow what an easy way out! No wonder why most Jews just think of Him as just another prophet or teacher----but yet STILL dont listen to another prophet or teacher.

Amazing absolutely amazing:thud::thud::thud:

 

[AK4]

Me to AK4. We all are seeking the same exact thing. I hope i see you in the Kingdom new buddy.

You will and so will everyone else. (but thats another thread) I cant wait!!!!

 

[Scuba Pete]

Use your commonsense and think. One is condemned by breaking the Law.

The other is saved by Grace and forgiveness. You should shop for some better sense.

As for living the life: with man this is impossible, yet with God, all things are possible!

 

[Heneni]

Q1: If you want to be a part of the promise of eternal life, then this is a choice that you make. We have a relationship with God. NO relationship is one-sided. He is our Father. Just like our earthly parents, they expect things from us. They will love us no matter what, but when we do not obey, they are not happy, and constant defiance weakens the bond with your parents (enter the teen-ager). Can we honestly love our parents with all our hearts, yet walk around their house, breaking their rules, and think that we will always remain there by the grace of their love for us? As long as you live in my house, you will follow my rules.. ever hear that from a parent? So the teen (assume he is 18 of course) leaves. Parent's love is still there, teen's love can still be there, but the bond is weak, and the parents protection and daily guidance is now gone. Flip side; can the teen be there and follow every rule, and never show affection and love towards the parent, and please them? If they don't have a real love for their parent, chances are, though they are technically following rules, they fall short of what a parent expects from a child. This would weaken the bond of the relationship as well. The action and the love are both needed for a happy and healthy relationship and bond. If you want to be born of this relationship with your Father, then you are required to do your part. With love in your heart, it shouldn't feel like you are just trying to meet a requirement.

Gal 3.26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

If you choose this relationship with God, then you choose to be a part of the whole thing.

Q2: No, you wouldn't have to obey my parent's rules. But in the bible, there are only two families to choose from, the god of this age, and the one true God. You only need to follow the rules of the one that you choose.

mik

Ok okk....stop right there...i read the first few lines of your post and i stopped, because the rules and regulations (the law) were given to the isrealites not the gentiles. And so IF it is binding it is only binding on the isrealites.

I understand the whole...you have to obey your parents...thing you have got going here. But there is not a rule book for the gentiles. And the relationship that you say we should have with god, is not based on rules and regulations either, but on love.

Clearly the rules and regulations based relationship that the isrealites had with god was not successfull, and now you are saying that the gentiles should follow rules and regulations as well in order for their relationship with god to be successfulll.

Having said that ...obedience to god is important and i am not shoving that to the side...but its not obeying rules and regulations that draws us closer to god, its getting to know him, in spirit and in truth. Before the only way the isrealites knew what god wanted was to look at what the rules and regulations say. But the gentiles can come to know god without a rule book. They have complete freedom to do what they want. However, even though they are free to do what they want, and they are completely free from any rules, the bible says that everything is permissable but not everything is good for you.

Having been set free litteraly from the constaints that a rule book would place on a relationship, the gentiles are free to explore god and to get to know god, without the fear of being 'left out in the cold' for not obeying the law which was given to the isrealites.

The law (well the ten commandments) are still usefull to help us understand what is right and what is wrong...but honestly most of us if we think about it..KNOW that murder is wrong.

So the law of god, is written on our hearts now...its not the same law as those of the isrealites, its not even clearly definable. The law is really only one thing..LOVE GOD, and for the rest, god writes on our heart love letters, not rules and regulations. And my love letter and yours are different.

If someone is really in love with god, the first thing that will be on their mind everyday, is what can i do to please god? And if you are an isrealite, i suppose that would mean obeying the law, but if you are a gentile, it could mean helping a bee stuck between the window and the curtain, to get out into freedom. Or it could mean giving your brother a hug.

 

[BrasenWall]

lol.. Wow, BW.. I didn't see your post until after I posted my last one, but they really say the same thing. Hey, can a person state that they keep the Sabbath as a statement of fact, and not be attempting to sound self-righteous?

mik

Hi mikmik
Yeah. A person cannot only say they keep the sabbath as a statement of fact but as a statement of faith. Theres really nothing self righteous in doing what God commands you to do.

Matthew 5:19
Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

 

[Ben Masada]

The other is saved by Grace and forgiveness. You should shop for some better sense.

As for living the life: with man this is impossible, yet with God, all things are possible!

++++++++++++++++++++++++++

"And the other is saved by grace and forgiveness!" What's the difference between this method and the one in Isaiah 1:18,19? All your sins will be forgiven if you repent and obey. I insist that this method is better than be condemned only for thinking about doing evil.

Ben

 

[Ben Masada]

Wow what an easy way out! No wonder why most Jews just think of Him as just another prophet or teacher----but yet STILL dont listen to another prophet or teacher.

Amazing absolutely amazing:thud::thud::thud:

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Do you? Do you listen to him at least as a Prophet or Teacher? If you did you would practise his faith, which was Judaism. Read Matthew 5:17-19. He came to confirm Judaism to the letter, but you prefer the faith of Paul which was Christianity, a man
who preached against the faith of Jesus. Read Acts 21:21.

Ben

 

[Heneni]

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Do you? Do you listen to him at least as a Prophet or Teacher? If you did you would practise his faith, which was Judaism. Read Matthew 5:17-19. He came to confirm Judaism to the letter, but you prefer the faith of Paul which was Christianity, a man
who preached against the faith of Jesus. Read Acts 21:21.

Ben

But ben, paul and those guys were sent for the gentiles....which you are not hun, you are a jew. So you shouldnt get upset about what paul and them folks say, because they were not sent to do what they did for the jews, they were sent for the gentiles. That is me.

If as a jew you try to follow the teachings of paul, it wont make sense to you! And if as a gentile i try and follow the way of the jews and convert to judiasm, i would be in over my head completely.

You must feel that the gentiles think they can 'dare ' to stand where isreal once stood.

Somewhere ....i cant remember where...i think the bible says that the isrealites can only be saved by observing the law. I'll try to get it for you. So you should relax. Your not suppose to become a 'christian' ben. You just be a jew, and let us be gentiles. It just seems like the type of relationship that the isrealites can have with god is different to the type of relatioship the gentiles have with god.

As i said before, i think god changed the gentiles into his beloved israel, and israel he changed into the gentiles.

 

[Ben Masada]

But ben, paul and those guys were sent for the gentiles....which you are not hun, you are a jew. So you shouldnt get upset about what paul and them folks say, because they were not sent to do what they did for the jews, they were sent for the gentiles. That is me.

+++Ben: - Again, who said that Paul had been sent to the Gentiles, himself? His word
had no credibility. Take a look at Acts 15:7. Peter said that he had been the one sent to the Gentiles and not Paul. Besides, if Paul was sent to the Gentiles, when did
he go to the Gentiles? Gentiles are not in the Synagogues of the Jews.

If as a jew you try to follow the teachings of paul, it wont make sense to you! And if as a gentile i try and follow the way of the jews and convert to judiasm, i would be in over my head completely.

+++Ben: - Sorry, but I don't agree with you. Thousands of Jews have become Christians and follow the teachings of Paul. Hundreds of Gentiles have converted to
Judaism and follow the teachings of Moses. That's perfectly natural.

You must feel that the gentiles think they can 'dare ' to stand where isreal once stood.

+++Ben: - What are you talking about? Israel still stands in the same position they always stood. Gentiles yes, they can't stand in the position of Israel without conversion to Judaism. (Isa. 56:1-8)

Somewhere ....i cant remember where...i think the bible says that the isrealites can only be saved by observing the law. I'll try to get it for you. So you should relax. Your not suppose to become a 'christian' ben. You just be a jew, and let us be gentiles. It just seems like the type of relationship that the isrealites can have with god is different to the type of relatioship the gentiles have with god.

+++Ben: - Psalm 119:155 I guess, must be something like what you need for salvation by observing the Law.

As i said before, i think god changed the gentiles into his beloved israel, and israel he changed into the gentiles.

+++Ben: - Have you ever heard about "Replacement Theology?" That's what you have stated above in your last sentence. Pope John 23rd recognized it as an antisemitic statement and asked forgiveness from the Jews in the name of Christianity.

Ben:no:

 

[BrasenWall]

Ok okk....stop right there...i read the first few lines of your post and i stopped, because the rules and regulations (the law) were given to the isrealites not the gentiles. And so IF it is binding it is only binding on the isrealites.

Hello Heneni
Do you believe John 16 is written for the gentiles?

JOHN 3 [16] For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that WHOSOEVER BELIEVETH in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. [17] For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him MIGHT BE SAVED. [18] He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. [19] And this is the condemnation, THAT LIGHT IS COME INTO THE WORLD, AND MEN LOVED DARKNESS RATHER THAN LIGHT, because their deeds were evil. [20] For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. [21] But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

Many gentiles will quote John 3[16-18]. But if you go on to read the next 3 verses in John (19-21) you will see that unbelievers have NO LIGHT IN THEM because they prefer darkness. Could it be there are some that say they believe and think they believe, but actually believe not due to their deeds? Their works?

ISAIAH 8 [20] TO THE LAW AND TO THE TESTIMONY: IF THEY SPEAK NOT ACCORDING TO THIS WORD, IT IS BECAUSE THERE IS NO LIGHT IN THEM.[21] And they shall pass through it, hardly bestead and hungry: and it shall come to pass, that when they shall be hungry, they shall fret themselves, and curse their king and their God, and look upward.[22] And they shall look unto the earth; and behold trouble and darkness, dimness of anguish; and they shall be driven to darkness.

As you can see this scripture from Isaiah is not about ancient Israel. In fact it has not yet come to pass. It will come to pass on “The Day of the Lord”. The day Jesus returns to this earth. To the law (10 commandments) and the testimony (Jesus) If they speak not according to these words THERE IS NO LIGHT IN THEM. Just as the WORD says in John 3.

ACTS 17 [10] And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews. [11] These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and SEARCHED THE SCRIPTURES DAILY, whether those things were so. [12] Therefore many of them believed; also of honourable women which were Greeks, and of men, not a few.

Many will claim that Isaiah 8 is old testament and may be ignored. Im not sure where the many came up with that train of thought. The old testament scriptures were the only scriptures around during the time of Paul. In Acts 17 you find a people who searched the old testament scriptures daily to see if Paul was telling the truth. By testing Pauls words in this way, many came to believe. Nothings changed since Pauls time. Scripture should be of no private interpretation. Scripture will interpret scripture.

 

[BrasenWall]

Heres another scripture that mirrors Isaiah 8

Rev. 12:17
And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

The law and the testimony

Who-rah

 

[Ben Masada]

Heres another scripture that mirrors Isaiah 8

Rev. 12:17
And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

The law and the testimony

Who-rah

++++++++++++++++++++++++

Now, compare what you found with Revelation 14:12. "Here is the patience of the saints; those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus." Now, what was the faith of Jesus? Judaism, did I hear that? Therefore, the saints are those who keep the commandments of God and Judaism. It's written and so be it.

Ben :clap

 

[Scuba Pete]

++++++++++++++++++++++++++

"And the other is saved by grace and forgiveness!" What's the difference between this method and the one in Isaiah 1:18,19? All your sins will be forgiven if you repent and obey. I insist that this method is better than be condemned only for thinking about doing evil.

Ben

How's that working for you? You can insist on a lot of things and that simply doesn't make it true.

Unlike goats and lambs, Jesus was the perfect sacrifice. You have to keep seeking forgiveness after every sin: I already have it.

 

[Ben Masada]

How's that working for you? You can insist on a lot of things and that simply doesn't make it true.

Unlike goats and lambs, Jesus was the perfect sacrifice. You have to keep seeking forgiveness after every sin: I already have it.

+++++++++++++++++++

How about the other thousands of Jews who ended up on the cross just as Jesus did?
They don't count? Theirs was not a sacrifice too? Christians speak of Jesus death on the cross as if he was the only Jew crucified by the Romans.

Ben :sorry1:

 

[Scuba Pete]

That's inaccurate... he was the only one without ANY sin.

Hebrews 4:

14 Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has gone through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold firmly to the faith we profess. 15 For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet was without sin. 16 Let us then approach the throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need. NIV

Romans 5

6 You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. 7 Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous man, though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die. 8 But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. NIV

Perhaps your understanding of Christianity is not what you think it is? These are basic tenets that are held by most every Christian and we see this as the main difference from all other religions: the perfect sacrifice of the Christ.

 

[Heneni]

Hello Heneni
Do you believe John 16 is written for the gentiles?

JOHN 3 [16] For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that WHOSOEVER BELIEVETH in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. [17] For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him MIGHT BE SAVED. [18] He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. [19] And this is the condemnation, THAT LIGHT IS COME INTO THE WORLD, AND MEN LOVED DARKNESS RATHER THAN LIGHT, because their deeds were evil. [20] For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. [21] But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

Many gentiles will quote John 3[16-18]. But if you go on to read the next 3 verses in John (19-21) you will see that unbelievers have NO LIGHT IN THEM because they prefer darkness. Could it be there are some that say they believe and think they believe, but actually believe not due to their deeds? Their works?

ISAIAH 8 [20] TO THE LAW AND TO THE TESTIMONY: IF THEY SPEAK NOT ACCORDING TO THIS WORD, IT IS BECAUSE THERE IS NO LIGHT IN THEM.[21] And they shall pass through it, hardly bestead and hungry: and it shall come to pass, that when they shall be hungry, they shall fret themselves, and curse their king and their God, and look upward.[22] And they shall look unto the earth; and behold trouble and darkness, dimness of anguish; and they shall be driven to darkness.

As you can see this scripture from Isaiah is not about ancient Israel. In fact it has not yet come to pass. It will come to pass on “The Day of the Lord”. The day Jesus returns to this earth. To the law (10 commandments) and the testimony (Jesus) If they speak not according to these words THERE IS NO LIGHT IN THEM. Just as the WORD says in John 3.

ACTS 17 [10] And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews. [11] These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and SEARCHED THE SCRIPTURES DAILY, whether those things were so. [12] Therefore many of them believed; also of honourable women which were Greeks, and of men, not a few.

Many will claim that Isaiah 8 is old testament and may be ignored. Im not sure where the many came up with that train of thought. The old testament scriptures were the only scriptures around during the time of Paul. In Acts 17 you find a people who searched the old testament scriptures daily to see if Paul was telling the truth. By testing Pauls words in this way, many came to believe. Nothings changed since Pauls time. Scripture should be of no private interpretation. Scripture will interpret scripture.

Hi Brasenwall...I was talking about the OT LAW, not the entire OT. I certainly dont think the OT should be ignored. Neither do i think the OT laws should be ignored. The OT law is just not binding on the gentiles.

 

[AK4]

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Do you? Do you listen to him at least as a Prophet or Teacher? If you did you would practise his faith, which was Judaism. Read Matthew 5:17-19. He came to confirm Judaism to the letter, but you prefer the faith of Paul which was Christianity, a man
who preached against the faith of Jesus. Read Acts 21:21.

Ben

OH boy, nothing he preached was contrary to Jesus. Peter, Paul, John and all the apostles were in agreement. See you pick and chose what is scripture so why argue with you.

What you fail to realise and see everytime i prove you false is....

Mt 16:19 - I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."
Mt 18:18 - "I tell you the truth, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.

He gave Peter the keys and i do believe in another post you accepted these verses to be true...

Acts 15:7 After much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them: "Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe. 8 God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. 9 He made no distinction between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith. 10 Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of the disciples a yoke that neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear? 11 No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are."

And this is what Paul preached FROM Peter. Jesus came to fufill all the law and by doing this He lifted the yoke off mankinds neck

Mt 11:29 - Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.
Peter preached what Jesus taught. Paul preached what was taught by Peter and the Holy Spirit. You dont know what Grace is so of course you wouldnt understand

 

[BrasenWall]

++++++++++++++++++++++++

Now, compare what you found with Revelation 14:12. "Here is the patience of the saints; those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus." Now, what was the faith of Jesus? Judaism, did I hear that? Therefore, the saints are those who keep the commandments of God and Judaism. It's written and so be it.

Ben :clap

Sorry Ben, you lost me. Ohhhhh....i see what your saying now. Thats funny

 

[Ben Masada]

OH boy, nothing he preached was contrary to Jesus. Peter, Paul, John and all the apostles were in agreement. See you pick and chose what is scripture so why argue with you.

+++Ben: - Oh! I should have told you up front that I believe only 20 percent of the NT. I consider 80 percent as interpolations by the writers and editors. Did you hear about the Jesus' Seminar? Those Schollars also arrived to the same conclusion.

What you fail to realise and see everytime i prove you false is....

Mt 16:19 - I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."
Mt 18:18 - "I tell you the truth, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.

+++Ben: - Jesus never said those things to Peter. Those things are part of the 80 percent.

He gave Peter the keys and i do believe in another post you accepted these verses to be true...

+++Ben: - Never! Check it out if you want.

Acts 15:7 After much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them: "Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe.

+++Ben: - That's true. That's part of the 20 percent. It means that Peter was the one
assigned to the Gentiles and not Paul.

8 God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. 9 He made no distinction between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith. 10 Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of the disciples a yoke that neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear? 11 No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are."

+++Ben: - This is Pauline, and it had nothing to do with Peter.

And this is what Paul preached FROM Peter. Jesus came to fufill all the law and by doing this He lifted the yoke off mankinds neck

+++Ben: - Now, read Matthew 5:17-19, especially verse 19. He came to fulfill, to confirm and to warn that we all must do the same. It means nothing was abolished
on the cross as Paul claimed.

Mt 11:29 - Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.
Peter preached what Jesus taught. Paul preached what was taught by Peter and the Holy Spirit. You dont know what Grace is so of course you wouldnt understand

+++Ben: - What are you talking about? I do understand what grace is. Read Isaiah 43:11. "It's I, I the Lord and there is no Savior but Me."

Ben:rainbow1:

 

[Ben Masada]

Hi Brasenwall...I was talking about the OT LAW, not the entire OT. I certainly dont think the OT should be ignored. Neither do i think the OT laws should be ignored. The OT law is just not binding on the gentiles.

+++++++++++++++++++++

And I agree with you 101 percent. What's binding upon the Gentiles are the Noahite
laws.

Ben :yes: