Why does my God allow children to die? Is he evil?

[gilligan8914]

This was brought out many times by Atheists and agnostics, I would like to discuss it with you in a rational and respectful manner. My disclaimer is I am a true 5 point Calvinist and If that is offensive to you,You are free to close the thread now. If I may suggest , we leave out all slander against My God in the process of this discussion, slander being pre-defined as name calling as If he were real and present.Questioning scriptures depiction of God however you interpret is allowed. Example: Is God evil? Fair enough?

Here is my premise,
this is my belief based upon my scriptures.
God not only allows children to die, He has pre-ordained them to die. Hard for us to fathom, granted, but True nevertheless in Scripture. If we say he did not cause it and only allowed it to happen then God would be reacting to free will of man to accomplish their own destruction, thus putting too much power in men and essentially tying God's hands. God ordained for this latest tragedy for his own purposes, we cannot know them, we are not our creator, so The bible tells us we must accept that their is a divine plan and God is in control completely.

So you have asked, where is the comfort in that? Why do religious peoples comfort families of these tragedies with this premise of a God in control? Well let me ask you Atheists would you attempt to comfort these mothers with your precept that there is no God? No heaven and no hell? That their children are reduced to dust as they came? That the man who murdered them who took his life is also Dust and there is no justice for them either? Both parties cease to exist, one guilty, one innocent, both have the same fate in the end.

Or could it be more comforting that a God in control is with their babies now, that they know no suffering,feel no pain have no more tears and the man that took their life will be punished by a Just and perfect God. Where is the evil in my premise and the lack of evil in yours? I find evil in evildoing going unpunished.I find evil in a life given for no purpose but to die and cease to exist.
What say you?

Yes he is evil. Anything else?

 

[1robin]

Sorry again robin. I assigned gender to your name without checking. I will edit my post to fix that

Now I am lost but good. I thought you used she in connection with them not me. No apology necessary (or at least I am so confused that I saw no foul anyway).

 

[1robin]

If having the ability to merely will something without having the capacity to make it happen satisfies "free will", then your argument fails.

Before we get to this supposed failure it is important to note that the ability to carry out an action has nothing to do with freewill but many other issues like power, authority, time, availability. I would have thought the will in freewill was enough to dictate that simple truth. Freewill is the ability to freely chose a mental concept or construct. I may will that Obama get lost in Martha's vineyard but I cannot make it happen. One is will the other is capability.

Suffering - at least deliberate suffering inflicted on others - is the result of not just will, but also capacity to carry out that will.

I agree.

If a murderer's "free will" is preserved by merely making sure that he can want to kill people, then taking away his physical capacity to kill people doesn't do anything to his free will at all. He could ineffectually wish all sorts of evil on everyone around him, but he wouldn't make anyone actually suffer at all.

I agree. Where is this going?

It would probably do you some good to think about it, then, because whichever way you decide the question should be answered, it undercuts your argument:

- if there's free will in Heaven, then it's possible to have free will without suffering.
- if there's no free will in Heaven, then God's not actually worried about preserving free will.

I have never said whether there is freewill in heaven or not. I have no idea nor can I. Why are we in heaven when we can't understand what occurs here and now?

So who would be responsible for the negative results that aren't the result of bad choices by humans except for God? The responsibility for suffering would still fall on him.

In the Biblical view the negative results are all because on sin. Sin has a corporate as well as individual impact. For example it was sin that caused God to leave tornados up to natural law instead of directly controlling them. The people the tornados kill did not necessarily cause it to happen by their sin but man's in general has. God said you want to be your own God's? Fine, you got it idiots. Then when a tornado shows up we are so stupid as to claim God is evil for not preventing what we have caused. If you trying to blame God for punishing sin directly and indirectly then I feel sure he would accept the responsibility but not the blame. Do you feel you have done anything even if you wind up charging God with being the judge he has always claimed to be?

Your argument seemed to use common Christian talking points about the responsibility for salvation/damnation. If that wasn't what you were going for, then I guess I misread your intention.

I do not know what any talking points are unless you mean the Bible. Logic coherence that has been coherent for over 5000 years can be called talking points if you wish but they remain as coherent as ever.

 

[1robin]

Apparently it becomes quite distorted to anyone who reads it. How many Christian sects are there now?

Thousands but almost all agree on over 90% of the central claims of the Bible. You may think that opinion over transubstantiation and music in Church are game enders I do not. I know of no scientific concept that does not have its detractors. Shall we condemn science as well? I see the double standards are in full effect.

Sorry, that's the story I read from the words on paper. God put a tree holding the knowledge of good and evil in front of people who had knowledge of neither and expected them to make a "good" choice. I don't see anything good or fair about it.

I guess allegory and symbolism were too much to ask for your understanding of Biblical literature.

I think they're all made up stories, so we sort of agree on one thing, I suppose.

I doubt it.

And thank you. It's nice to be back. I was off sinning in fabulous Las Vegas! I met some very nice people with signs telling me that I'm going to hell. Fun times!

If you consider the highpoint of entertainment in Las Vegas claims your going to Hell then you are truly bizarre. I do not think theological signs are what Las Vegas advertises most of the time. However your distaste for all things theological may explain your enjoyment of being condemned by signs. I have never understood gambling (not from a right or wrong standpoint). I had to do a project in a probability class and became so incensed by games that guaranty my failure if played long enough that I lost any incentive to throw my money away. I gambled once just to say I had done so but felt like a sucker. If you want I can get some Christmas lights, watered down margaritas, and throw some cards around and you can just give me your money instead. Long before I was a Christian I would never do what all the sheeple were doing.

 

[1robin]

You are right.

I have no idea what criteria my subconscious uses when it instantly assigns gender to a poster but I think I am about 70% correct so far.

 

[1robin]

Yes he is evil. Anything else?

Apparently I missed the memo about Gilligan being the arbiter of al truth and the one about asserting truth into existence.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Thousands but almost all agree on over 90% of the central claims of the Bible. You may think that opinion over transubstantiation and music in Church are game enders I do not. I know of no scientific concept that does not have its detractors. Shall we condemn science as well? I see the double standards are in full effect.

You can claim the differences are as miniscule as you like, but the fact of the matter is, there are thousands of different sects of Christianity that disagree with each other. We're not talking about "detractors," we're talking about followers of a religion that disagree on what that religion claims.

So obviously, there's more than one way to read the Bible.

I guess allegory and symbolism were too much to ask for your understanding of Biblical literature.

Some people read it literally. Whose view am I to take on it? I'm just reading the words on paper.

If you consider the highpoint of entertainment in Las Vegas claims your going to Hell then you are truly bizarre. I do not think theological signs are what Las Vegas advertises most of the time. However your distaste for all things theological may explain your enjoyment of being condemned by signs. I have never understood gambling (not from a right or wrong standpoint). I had to do a project in a probability class and became so incensed by games that guaranty my failure if played long enough that I lost any incentive to throw my money away. I gambled once just to say I had done so but felt like a sucker. If you want I can get some Christmas lights, watered down margaritas, and throw some cards around and you can just give me your money instead. Long before I was a Christian I would never do what all the sheeple were doing.

It certainly wasn’t the highpoint of the trip. That would have to be when my boyfriend won a bunch of money. It was just another interesting part of the trip that in all honesty, I expected to happen. I’ve seen religious people with signs just about everywhere I’ve been and considering that some Christians consider gambling to be sinful, I fully expected to see such people in Vegas as well. And I did. J

Vegas is a ton of fun. There are endless shows (Penn & Teller are really good), endless things to eat and to look at. I’d recommend it to everyone, gamblers and non-gamblers alike (Personally, I’m not much of a gambler, but it’s fun once in a while).

 

[SkepticThinker]

I have no idea what criteria my subconscious uses when it instantly assigns gender to a poster but I think I am about 70% correct so far.

Which way are you leaning?

 

[kjw47]

Yes he is evil. Anything else?

Actually God is a God of justice-- when mankind rejects the laws of God they deserve what they get--he has forewarned all--the problem is--there are too many false religions on the earth that do not have a clue--99% of all religion is false.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Actually God is a God of justice-- when mankind rejects the laws of God they deserve what they get--he has forewarned all--the problem is--there are too many false religions on the earth that do not have a clue--99% of all religion is false.

How do you know yours is the real one?

 

[CG Didymus]

Actually God is a God of justice-- when mankind rejects the laws of God they deserve what they get--he has forewarned all--the problem is--there are too many false religions on the earth that do not have a clue--99% of all religion is false.

What are the true "Laws" of God? 99% of Christians disregard the commandment about the Sabbath? And, what about all that stony that God ordered for disobedience?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Actually God is a God of justice-- when mankind rejects the laws of God they deserve what they get--he has forewarned all--the problem is--there are too many false religions on the earth that do not have a clue--99% of all religion is false.

So... simply warning someone of what you're going to do necessarily renders what you do just?

 

[I.S.L.A.M617]

So... simply warning someone of what you're going to do necessarily renders what you do just?

Sweet!! Hey everybody! I'm gonna go rob a liquor store, get wasted on whatever I grab from it, then pee in the pots at a soup kitchen. You've been warned.

 

[CG Didymus]

Sweet!! Hey everybody! I'm gonna go rob a liquor store, get wasted on whatever I grab from it, then pee in the pots at a soup kitchen. You've been warned.

No, do you make the rules? Only God can tell people to kill everybody in a city, send fire down on other cities and kill everyone and flood the whole Earth and kill every living thing except Noah's gang. He's perfectly just to do that because we've been bad. But we can't do good, because he's the only one that is good. All we can do is accept his free gift of salvation. Then, he is faithful and true to forgive us for being so bad. But we still can and will do some bad things because it's our nature to be bad, because only he is good. So if he makes us suffer a little with diseases and disasters, it's only him trying to get our attention and reminding us that we have to be good. And he's perfectly justified in doing so, because we're so bad. Wait, why in the hell did he make us this way? Oh yeah, he did make us perfect, but then we rebelled and caused him to have to curse us and all of creation. And who can blame him for doing that?

 

[I.S.L.A.M617]

No, do you make the rules? Only God can tell people to kill everybody in a city, send fire down on other cities and kill everyone and flood the whole Earth and kill every living thing except Noah's gang. He's perfectly just to do that because we've been bad. But we can't do good, because he's the only one that is good. All we can do is accept his free gift of salvation. Then, he is faithful and true to forgive us for being so bad. But we still can and will do some bad things because it's our nature to be bad, because only he is good. So if he makes us suffer a little with diseases and disasters, it's only him trying to get our attention and reminding us that we have to be good. And he's perfectly justified in doing so, because we're so bad. Wait, why in the hell did he make us this way? Oh yeah, he did make us perfect, but then we rebelled and caused him to have to curse us and all of creation. And who can blame him for doing that?

Oh, of course. Forgive me, God

 

[SkepticThinker]

No, do you make the rules? Only God can tell people to kill everybody in a city, send fire down on other cities and kill everyone and flood the whole Earth and kill every living thing except Noah's gang. He's perfectly just to do that because we've been bad. But we can't do good, because he's the only one that is good. All we can do is accept his free gift of salvation. Then, he is faithful and true to forgive us for being so bad. But we still can and will do some bad things because it's our nature to be bad, because only he is good. So if he makes us suffer a little with diseases and disasters, it's only him trying to get our attention and reminding us that we have to be good. And he's perfectly justified in doing so, because we're so bad. Wait, why in the hell did he make us this way? Oh yeah, he did make us perfect, but then we rebelled and caused him to have to curse us and all of creation. And who can blame him for doing that?

Well, that makes perfect sense!

 

[kjw47]

What are the true "Laws" of God? 99% of Christians disregard the commandment about the Sabbath? And, what about all that stony that God ordered for disobedience?

Jesus came and made a new covenant-- That covenant is love-- Love for God and ones fellow man. Not such an easy task in a satan ruled world.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Jesus came and made a new covenant-- That covenant is love-- Love for God and ones fellow man.

... except for money-changers. And fig trees.

Not such an easy task in a satan ruled world.

Indeed. Whoever left Satan in charge really dropped the ball, didn't he?

 

[1robin]

... except for money-changers. And fig trees.


Indeed. Whoever left Satan in charge really dropped the ball, didn't he?

This is like a bunch of convicted mass murderers sitting around complaining how the warden is unjust.

A species who after at least 40 centuries has only increased it's evil is not a good judge of anything moral much less God. Not only do we kill and take life we had no right to but do it many times for the fun of it. We even use it and immorality of every sort as popular entertainment. God takes a life he created, with full knowledge of the total impact, and completely within his justifiable sovereignty and those that take lives they did not create, knew nothing of the total cost, and within no justifiable realm call him evil, then we televise it into every home in almost every nation. If that were not enough we will pretend like we kill people and commit every form of immorality our distorted imagination can devise. After all that we will call the only being in this sad circus that has given exhaustive explanation and sources for our immorality, methods to limit it, and a promise to illuminate it the bad guy. The most wicked species in all of known history calling the being most universally associated with good and love as being evil is just about the best proof the Bible could have of our moral insanity.

Maybe you thought how the creator of nature treated a piece of the shrubbery a meaningful point but I don't see it.

 

[TheMusicTheory]

This is like a bunch of convicted mass murderers sitting around complaining how the warden is unjust.

Except in your premise this particular warden created the murderers, instilled in them the capacity to do evil things, and then somehow became surprised when bad things happened.

A species who after at least 40 centuries has only increased it's evil

On what basis do you make this claim?

After all that we will call the only being in this sad circus that has given exhaustive explanation and sources for our immorality, methods to limit it, and a promise to illuminate it the bad guy. The most wicked species in all of known history calling the being most universally associated with good and love as being evil is just about the best proof the Bible could have of our moral insanity.

Let's pretend, for a moment, that your ludicrously hyperbolic statement "the most wicked species in all of known history" is accurate and 100 percent factual. The idea that we somehow did this to ourselves is laughable. If your god created us, then he knew full well going in what he was doing and how it would turn out...and did it anyway. He is *absolutely* culpable for it. If I set my hand on fire, knowing that it will hurt and burn, I cannot then blame the fire for hurting me. That would be patently ridiculous.