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Why does my God allow children to die? Is he evil?

adi2d

Active Member
The old God gave us free will because He loves us so much reasoning again

He gave us free will then punished everyone who has ever lived the first time Adam and Eve used their free will. Makes no sense to me. God knew what was going to happen before he made A and E but made them anyway so all that happened. All the misery and suffering is the way He planned it

I mean if the angels could not follow Him how could we be expected to?
 
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1robin

Christian/Baptist
No, he doesn't. Our free will is limited in countless ways. There are plenty of things that we might want to do that we can't do. If you disagree, use the power of your thoughts to write "you're wrong, Penguin!" in the sky over my house.
No it is not. You are making the same mistake that in atheism appears to be an epidemic. Your confusing the capacity to carry an action out with the ability to will it. I have already willed the message but had no capacity to send it because I have no idea where your house is. Is the fact I have no idea where your house is evidence I did not will the message?


Does it? Is there free will in Heaven?
I have never thought about it. Heaven is not laid out in detail in the Bible. I have no idea.

There are undesirable consequences in the world that have nothing to do with free will. For instance, think of all the people who have been killed by choking; exactly which person's "wrong choice" produced the "undesirable consequence" that we use the same tube to breathe as to swallow food?
I never said al negative results come from bad choices. I said bad choices are allowed to cause bad results. You so far have not even dented anything I have said and have been very confused on the issue in general.

This makes no sense. God withholding information from humanity does nothing to protect human "free will". The mere fact that one choice out of many is obviously the best doesn't mean that we have no choice.
I did not say anything about withholding information. I tell you what you may want to start over. You have not ever discussed anything relevant to anything I said.
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
If one can do anything and loves everyone, then by simple deduction, we can conclude that it would stop a rapist from raping a child.
No you cant. You keep asserting this idea and it is not true. Instead of simply claiming it please demonstrate that it is true.


That's true, only if it is incapable of stopping suffering and/or calamities.
It is also true if that being is omnipotent but his purpose has moral justification for temporarily allowing suffering. Have you never allowed an action you could have prevented to be chosen and the negative consequences enacted for teaching purposes?

If there were some children playing on the railroad tracks, while a train was approaching, would you save those children if you could?
I would, however what I would do has nothing to do with what God would. I do not know if those kids will grow up and Nuke Canada for example. I did not create both this universe and those kids with a specific purpose in mind. God did and that purpose makes temporary suffering morally justifiable.

If God can do anything, then he could remove any morally justified reason for preventing Hitler from slaughtering millions of Jews - allowing the Jews to continue with their lives free of suffering.
That is true and also irrelevant.

1. God can do anything.
2. God is all good. More accurately always right.

Please demonstrate (not simply assume) that those two facts mean God must do as you claim. Those two facts do not mean that. Ones capacity and ones quality. Neither are will or purpose. I can easily see you did not look into the link I gave you or the argument as given by the professionals.

Your making two mistakes (one a optimization fallacy) in one claim. I have already covered you assumptions about capacity and quality. As for optimization. You seem to say God should have stopped Hitler. Then what? At what point has he reached the arbitrary amount of good that would satisfy you? Why stop there? On what basis are you God's judge? Based on your dynamic that God should stop evil then if we keep going the only action God could take is to create redundant God's exactly like himself as you have omnisciently determined he should remove all imperfection.

You are making an emotion based claim and trying to force fit logic into it and those that have made a career of logic and philosophy (one of the best at he link I gave) know very well that is not possible.

How can one deny a being that is inert?
What? Are you having trouble following the simple point I made? If so DR Craig may have been too much for you. I mentioned a theoretical being that enforced compliance and you responded with a claim about a inert being to my statement. Why? If for some reason you just missed what I said and were instead railing against the actual God who sent his only son to die for you then in what way is that inert either?

By that logic, if god can do anything, then he made the wrong choice to not stop Hitler from slaughtering the Jews.
Not given purpose. His purpose is to allow this world to run almost without his intervention until we make it so bad here (and we are well on our way) that he must stop it. At that point he will end all suffering. Only if you dismiss and ignore purpose is your argument even applicable (though it would still be wrong).


How can one choose someone who doesn't even appear to exist?
That statement is either the result of ignorance or intentionally used to justify a preference. He produced the most studied and cherished book in human history. The most influential person in history. He gave 2500 prophecies (which no human explanation exists for). He recorded miracles in multiply attested works so accurate the greatest expert on testimony and evidence in human history (Simon Greenleaf) said it meets every standard of modern law and the historical method. It has 25,000 historical corroborations. He even intervenes in human affairs beyond the Bible and billions claim to have experienced him directly. He even produced a universe that can't even exist unless he does. On what planet is there no evidence of God? Great scholars like Lewis and Chesterton literally began the process of disproving God and gave it up and became Christians because the volume of evidence is overwhelming.

Just to be sure we're on the same page, please provide three examples of evil.
That's a strange question and I think it leading but will answer anyway.

1. Taking human life without justification.
2. Knowingly increasing human suffering with justification.
3. Chattel slavery.

William Lane Craig is highly disingenuous. See [youtube]VgxUTJmcWsM[/youtube]
'Unbelieving' WLC - William Lane Craig exposed by Lawrence Krauss - YouTube
That's ridiculous. He is on the staff at several legendary secular institutions. Give arguments to what he says not personal commentary you find from those that hate what he says. Or even try Ravi Zacharias. He has at least 3 earned degrees beyond a bachelors and I think 6 honorary doctorates and is IMO the greatest theological philosopher who ever lived. Or try the legendary Aquinas. They all say the same thing and are far more qualified to know that most in their field. Give rigorous proof not personal opinion and assertions. Did you even listen to Craig's argument or simply look for anyone who dislikes what he says?
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
The old God gave us free will because He loves us so much reasoning again
Is the use of a point tat has never been refuted again invalid for some reason. Is 1 + 1 no longer = 2 once stated?

He gave us free will then punished everyone who has ever lived the first time Adam and Eve used their free will. Makes no sense to me.
Probably makes no sense because you have no way of knowing it. What do you mean by punish? Even among the most vile of moral monsters there is no evident punishment in many cases. Even if true your argument is only an argument if right action was specifically punished. The worst form of evil possible is to not punish evil. In fact that too is an atheist complaint. As Chesterton pointed out. It was the incoherence of atheisms arguments that made him give up his own atheism. Heads God losses tails you win is not a argument it is propaganda. God can't be wrong for punishing us all and letting evil thrive. He can't be too violent and too passive. He is not to demanding and too permissive. He is not too intrusive and too remote. He can't be a white mask on a black world and a black mask of a white world.

God knew what was going to happen before he made A and E but made them anyway so all that happened.
When you can see the future your self then you can bring up logical laws associated with it.

All the misery and suffering is the way He planned it
Is that why he warned us against it, sent his son to die to save us out of it, and promised to end it all together? Is it liberal spending policy or God that is bankrupting the country? Was it God or Stalin's hatred of all religion that led to his killing 20 million? Is God spreading aids by homosexual activity that he warned against or us? Did American slaves in the old south blame God or appeal to him for deliverance (which his followers provided with their lives)? Did God give us the weapons to wipe ourselves out of existence or our own insanity (which almost actually did it at least twice)? Funny I don't see God doing what you blame on him, only us. It is he that said do not murder, do not steal, and provided the greatest act of self sacrifice in human history, and us who steal, murder, and provide the greatest acts of evil in human history and yet the race that does them blames it on God. By doing so is that no evidence of why we are doomed without him?




I mean if the angels could not follow Him how could we be expected to?
This is a very good example of the lack of merit in all these arguments. 1/3 of the angels followed Satan, 2/3 stuck with God. Your drawing lesson from the exception and ignoring the rule.

The entire argument concerning evil (in all of it's various and grotesque forms) is primarily and irrational and emotional complaint and has not actual philosophical merit at all. Please stop ranting and prove what you claim with philosophical principle or logical law.
 

adi2d

Active Member
Is the use of a point tat has never been refuted again invalid for some reason. Is 1 + 1 no longer = 2 once stated?

Probably makes no sense because you have no way of knowing it. What do you mean by punish? Even among the most vile of moral monsters there is no evident punishment in many cases. Even if true your argument is only an argument if right action was specifically punished. The worst form of evil possible is to not punish evil. In fact that too is an atheist complaint. As Chesterton pointed out. It was the incoherence of atheisms arguments that made him give up his own atheism. Heads God losses tails you win is not a argument it is propaganda. God can't be wrong for punishing us all and letting evil thrive. He can't be too violent and too passive. He is not to demanding and too permissive. He is not too intrusive and too remote. He can't be a white mask on a black world and a black mask of a white world.

When you can see the future your self then you can bring up logical laws associated with it.

Is that why he warned us against it, sent his son to die to save us out of it, and promised to end it all together? Is it liberal spending policy or God that is bankrupting the country? Was it God or Stalin's hatred of all religion that led to his killing 20 million? Is God spreading aids by homosexual activity that he warned against or us? Did American slaves in the old south blame God or appeal to him for deliverance (which his followers provided with their lives)? Did God give us the weapons to wipe ourselves out of existence or our own insanity (which almost actually did it at least twice)? Funny I don't see God doing what you blame on him, only us. It is he that said do not murder, do not steal, and provided the greatest act of self sacrifice in human history, and us who steal, murder, and provide the greatest acts of evil in human history and yet the race that does them blames it on God. By doing so is that no evidence of why we are doomed without him?




This is a very good example of the lack of merit in all these arguments. 1/3 of the angels followed Satan, 2/3 stuck with God. Your drawing lesson from the exception and ignoring the rule.

The entire argument concerning evil (in all of it's various and grotesque forms) is primarily and irrational and emotional complaint and has not actual philosophical merit at all. Please stop ranting and prove what you claim with philosophical principle or logical law.


Not sure why you think I was ranting.
My thoughts were about the garen of Eden story. The angels (one third) rebelled against God prior to Adam and Eve. God made them without the knowledge of good and evil. Told them not to eat a certain tree that he put in center of garden. They were tricked by a fallen angel. An omnipotent God would have known they would. My question is why? God put guards around tree of life so they wouldn't become as gods. Why not just guard the tree of knowledge ?

All the bad things you mentioned wouldn't have happened and Jesus sacrifice would not have been needed.

I'm not a great debater just trying to reason out the story
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
Not sure why you think I was ranting.
I can't remember. I think I got you and some one else confused.

My thoughts were about the garen of Eden story. The angels (one third) rebelled against God prior to Adam and Eve. God made them without the knowledge of good and evil. Told them not to eat a certain tree that he put in center of garden. They were tricked by a fallen angel. An omnipotent God would have known they would. My question is why? God put guards around tree of life so they wouldn't become as gods. Why not just guard the tree of knowledge ?
All these things involve choice and freewill. Do not think of apples and trees. They are allegory. He gave Angels and man choice. He does not want forced labor and you can't force love. Choice is mandated by true love. What choice does not involve the ability to choose wrong?

All the bad things you mentioned wouldn't have happened and Jesus sacrifice would not have been needed.
Choice was needed. The ability to choose wrong was needed. The fix for wrong choices was needed as well. This is not a good analogy but it is as if his purpose required eggs to be broken because omelets were desired. He did not want automatons who could not choice otherwise than to believe and follow him. He wanted followers who freely chose him and that nor omelets can't be gained without eggs being broken.


I'm not a great debater just trying to reason out the story
Judging from this post I must have had you confused with someone else. Sorry.
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
1. God is so loving he grants freewill. If he forced compliance or love you would cite that as a reason to deny him.
2. Freewill necessitates choosing poorly.
3. Choosing poorly and God's ultimate purpose both dictate that the wrong choice produce undesirable consequences. Both as proof it was wrong and evidence of an objective moral framework that can't even exist unless God does.
4. This is all so we may have evidence of both God, our being free moral agents, actual moral truth, and enables us to freely choose him and an eternity of contentment.

What about the free will of the person being raped?
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
I can't remember. I think I got you and some one else confused.

All these things involve choice and freewill. Do not think of apples and trees. They are allegory. He gave Angels and man choice. He does not want forced labor and you can't force love. Choice is mandated by true love. What choice does not involve the ability to choose wrong?

Choice was needed. The ability to choose wrong was needed. The fix for wrong choices was needed as well. This is not a good analogy but it is as if his purpose required eggs to be broken because omelets were desired. He did not want automatons who could not choice otherwise than to believe and follow him. He wanted followers who freely chose him and that nor omelets can't be gained without eggs being broken.


Judging from this post I must have had you confused with someone else. Sorry.
Yes, two people who had no knowledge of good and evil were supposed to make a wise choice about good and evil. :rolleyes: That's fair.
 

kjw47

Well-Known Member
Not sure why you think I was ranting.
My thoughts were about the garen of Eden story. The angels (one third) rebelled against God prior to Adam and Eve. God made them without the knowledge of good and evil. Told them not to eat a certain tree that he put in center of garden. They were tricked by a fallen angel. An omnipotent God would have known they would. My question is why? God put guards around tree of life so they wouldn't become as gods. Why not just guard the tree of knowledge ?

All the bad things you mentioned wouldn't have happened and Jesus sacrifice would not have been needed.

I'm not a great debater just trying to reason out the story


Not one angel rebelled prior to satan--this occurred after his rebellion--satan didn't rebel until he lied to Eve. satan wasn't telling Eve they would become like God( almighty powerful) he was telling Eve that with the knowledge of good and bad( instead of just good) they could make decisions on their own without God directing their steps to find true happiness. This brought Gods universal sovereignty into question before the eyes of all creation( angels)-- so now it is being proved beyond the shadow of a doubt, once and for all time, --was God right?--or was satan right? Its almost done.
 

adi2d

Active Member
Yes, two people who had no knowledge of good and evil were supposed to make a wise choice about good and evil. :rolleyes: That's fair.


That's what I had aproblem with but it seems s/he is saying A and E story is not to be taken literally. But I have said that and was scolded if its not literal the Jesus wouldn't have to die for Adams sins.

Seems like an omni God would have known how to create without all these problems
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
Not one angel rebelled prior to satan--this occurred after his rebellion--satan didn't rebel until he lied to Eve. satan wasn't telling Eve they would become like God( almighty powerful) he was telling Eve that with the knowledge of good and bad( instead of just good) they could make decisions on their own without God directing their steps to find true happiness. This brought Gods universal sovereignty into question before the eyes of all creation( angels)-- so now it is being proved beyond the shadow of a doubt, once and for all time, --was God right?--or was satan right? Its almost done.
He didn't actually lie to Eve though, did he? He actually told her the truth.
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
That's what I had aproblem with but it seems s/he is saying A and E story is not to be taken literally. But I have said that and was scolded if its not literal the Jesus wouldn't have to die for Adams sins.

Depends what kind of Christian you're talking to, I guess.

Seems like an omni God would have known how to create without all these problems
Yes, it certainly does.
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
Yes, two people who had no knowledge of good and evil were supposed to make a wise choice about good and evil. :rolleyes: That's fair.
It is quite remarkable how distorted the Bible becomes in the hands of those that need it to be. It was not a choice between good and evil. It was a choice concerning the knowledge of good and evil. God said they would not want it and would regret it and so they immediately got some of it. It is really silly to imagine two people arguing over fruit with a snake. I think this an allegory about all sin, all rebellion, all disobedience and perfectly representative and everyone who has ever lived except Christ. I am glad to see your back, nothing makes me appreciate coherence more than incoherence.
 

adi2d

Active Member
. I am glad to see your back, nothing makes me appreciate coherence more than incoherence.


If HE(Robin) is glad to see your back turn around. Probably love your front

:D

Sorry. Just joking. Couldn't resist it: D
 
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1robin

Christian/Baptist
If she is glad to see your back turn around. Probably love your front

:D

Sorry. Just joking. Couldn't resist it: D
How did you know they are a she. For some reason I instantly assign a gender to every poster. I have no idea what it is based on but I assigned a she to them and was curious if I was right.
 

adi2d

Active Member
How did you know they are a she. For some reason I instantly assign a gender to every poster. I have no idea what it is based on but I assigned a she to them and was curious if I was right.


Sorry again robin. I assigned gender to your name without checking. I will edit my post to fix that
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
No it is not. You are making the same mistake that in atheism appears to be an epidemic. Your confusing the capacity to carry an action out with the ability to will it. I have already willed the message but had no capacity to send it because I have no idea where your house is. Is the fact I have no idea where your house is evidence I did not will the message?
If having the ability to merely will something without having the capacity to make it happen satisfies "free will", then your argument fails. Suffering - at least deliberate suffering inflicted on others - is the result of not just will, but also capacity to carry out that will.

If a murderer's "free will" is preserved by merely making sure that he can want to kill people, then taking away his physical capacity to kill people doesn't do anything to his free will at all. He could ineffectually wish all sorts of evil on everyone around him, but he wouldn't make anyone actually suffer at all.

I have never thought about it. Heaven is not laid out in detail in the Bible. I have no idea.
It would probably do you some good to think about it, then, because whichever way you decide the question should be answered, it undercuts your argument:

- if there's free will in Heaven, then it's possible to have free will without suffering.
- if there's no free will in Heaven, then God's not actually worried about preserving free will.

I never said al negative results come from bad choices. I said bad choices are allowed to cause bad results. You so far have not even dented anything I have said and have been very confused on the issue in general.
So who would be responsible for the negative results that aren't the result of bad choices by humans except for God? The responsibility for suffering would still fall on him.

I did not say anything about withholding information. I tell you what you may want to start over. You have not ever discussed anything relevant to anything I said.
Your argument seemed to use common Christian talking points about the responsibility for salvation/damnation. If that wasn't what you were going for, then I guess I misread your intention.
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
It is quite remarkable how distorted the Bible becomes in the hands of those that need it to be. It was not a choice between good and evil. It was a choice concerning the knowledge of good and evil. God said they would not want it and would regret it and so they immediately got some of it. It is really silly to imagine two people arguing over fruit with a snake. I think this an allegory about all sin, all rebellion, all disobedience and perfectly representative and everyone who has ever lived except Christ. I am glad to see your back, nothing makes me appreciate coherence more than incoherence.
Apparently it becomes quite distorted to anyone who reads it. How many Christian sects are there now?

Sorry, that's the story I read from the words on paper. God put a tree holding the knowledge of good and evil in front of people who had knowledge of neither and expected them to make a "good" choice. I don't see anything good or fair about it.

I think they're all made up stories, so we sort of agree on one thing, I suppose. ;)

And thank you. It's nice to be back. I was off sinning in fabulous Las Vegas! :D I met some very nice people with signs telling me that I'm going to hell. Fun times!
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
- if there's free will in Heaven, then it's possible to have free will without suffering.
- if there's no free will in Heaven, then God's not actually worried about preserving free will.
Good questions. But apparently there was free will in heaven at one time, since one third of God's messengers followed the one real bad angel. So they had enough free will to make a choice there, a real stupid choice, but they still made it. However, since the fall, has God put a stop to free will for angels so that no more will turn away? I wonder if God and the devil planted a few double agents? Good angels posing as bad ones and bad ones posing as good? God could have his guys spy on the devil to see what he's up to next? Because obviously, God had no idea what kind of mischief Satan was going to cause in the garden, right? Or he would have stopped it? Right?

But also, what about some of the supposedly good angels, like Gabriel for instance? After he spoke will Mary, he went and told Mohammad a bunch of stuff, wrong stuff, misleading stuff. Like Jesus is not God and that he didn't die on the cross. Can Gabriel really be trusted? Can any of the angels be trusted? Since the Satan can disguise himself as a good guy, how can we know if these "messengers" are really from God and telling us the truth? Oh yes, by comparing it what the unambiguous, clear as a bell written Word says. After all, it was given to us by God's Holy angels. So I guess there's nothing to worry about.
 
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