Why does my God allow children to die? Is he evil?

[Lady B]

This was brought out many times by Atheists and agnostics, I would like to discuss it with you in a rational and respectful manner. My disclaimer is I am a true 5 point Calvinist and If that is offensive to you,You are free to close the thread now. If I may suggest , we leave out all slander against My God in the process of this discussion, slander being pre-defined as name calling as If he were real and present.Questioning scriptures depiction of God however you interpret is allowed. Example: Is God evil? Fair enough?

Here is my premise,
this is my belief based upon my scriptures.
God not only allows children to die, He has pre-ordained them to die. Hard for us to fathom, granted, but True nevertheless in Scripture. If we say he did not cause it and only allowed it to happen then God would be reacting to free will of man to accomplish their own destruction, thus putting too much power in men and essentially tying God's hands. God ordained for this latest tragedy for his own purposes, we cannot know them, we are not our creator, so The bible tells us we must accept that their is a divine plan and God is in control completely.

So you have asked, where is the comfort in that? Why do religious peoples comfort families of these tragedies with this premise of a God in control? Well let me ask you Atheists would you attempt to comfort these mothers with your precept that there is no God? No heaven and no hell? That their children are reduced to dust as they came? That the man who murdered them who took his life is also Dust and there is no justice for them either? Both parties cease to exist, one guilty, one innocent, both have the same fate in the end.

Or could it be more comforting that a God in control is with their babies now, that they know no suffering,feel no pain have no more tears and the man that took their life will be punished by a Just and perfect God. Where is the evil in my premise and the lack of evil in yours? I find evil in evildoing going unpunished.I find evil in a life given for no purpose but to die and cease to exist.
What say you?

 

[dolphin910]

My explanation for this has always been that God created the universe, but gave people free will. This free will can cause evil people to do evil things, and god does not come down and intervene when say 13 children die. There are murders deaths and atrocities committed everyday throughout the world. People have their own free will, which we take for granted. As the question for why would a good god let evil things happen? It is exactly that. In the religious sense, the death of an innocent is not necessarily an evil thing. They are taken from their families and cause grief for others in their life, but they are in a better place now.

 

[no-body]

My explanation for this has always been that God created the universe, but gave people free will. This free will can cause evil people to do evil things, and god does not come down and intervene when say 13 children die. There are murders deaths and atrocities committed everyday throughout the world. People have their own free will, which we take for granted. As the question for why would a good god let evil things happen? It is exactly that. In the religious sense, the death of an innocent is not necessarily an evil thing. They are taken from their families and cause grief for others in their life, but they are in a better place now.

What scriptural verses support this argument? It's been a while since I read the bible but I don't remember free will or original sin anywhere in there.

If anything everything is preordained, which makes God even more evil.

 

[truseeker]

Mankind turned it's back on God and so God turned His back on mankind. When we try to live without God we must face the consequences. We do not allow God in school so how can He protect children there. God allows thing to happen because people do not allow Him to control things His way.

 

[rusra02]

This was brought out many times by Atheists and agnostics, I would like to discuss it with you in a rational and respectful manner. My disclaimer is I am a true 5 point Calvinist and If that is offensive to you,You are free to close the thread now. If I may suggest , we leave out all slander against My God in the process of this discussion, slander being pre-defined as name calling as If he were real and present.Questioning scriptures depiction of God however you interpret is allowed. Example: Is God evil? Fair enough?

Here is my premise,
this is my belief based upon my scriptures.
God not only allows children to die, He causes them to die. Hard for us to fathom, granted, but True nevertheless in Scripture. If we say he did not cause it and only allowed it to happen then God would be reacting to free will of man to accomplish their own destruction, thus putting too much power in men and essentially tying God's hands. God ordained for this latest tragedy for his own purposes, we cannot know them, we are not our creator, so The bible tells us we must accept that their is a divine plan and God is in control completely.

So you have asked, where is the comfort in that? Why do religious peoples comfort families of these tragedies with this premise of a God in control? Well let me ask you Atheists would you attempt to comfort these mothers with your precept that there is no God? No heaven and no hell? That their children are reduced to dust as they came? That the man who murdered them who took his life is also Dust and there is no justice for them either? Both parties cease to exist, one guilty, one innocent, both have the same fate in the end.

Or could it be more comforting that a God in control is with their babies now, that they know no suffering,feel no pain have no more tears and the man that took their life will be punished by a Just and perfect God. Where is the evil in my premise and the lack of evil in yours? I find evil in evildoing going unpunished.I find evil in a life given for no purpose but to die and cease to exist.
What say you?

God is not responsible for the deaths of children at the hands of a murderer. As the Bible explains at James 1:13; "With evil things God cannot be tried nor does he himself try anyone." I believe the true God hates the wicked acts of men who are responsible for so much suffering. Genesis 6:7 says that "God felt hurt at his heart" over the badness and violence that filled the earth in Noah's day.
The bible explains that the first human murderer "originated with the wicked one (Satan the Devil)." 1 John 3:4. The Bible assures us that God will soon destroy the wicked, and resurrect back to life those in his memory. (Acts 24:15) So, IMO, God is not to blame for the wicked acts of men who ignore and disobey his commands. (Deuteronomy 32:4-6)

 

[LuisDantas]

Well let me ask you Atheists would you attempt to comfort these mothers with your precept that there is no God?

It really depends a lot on the person. Generaly speaking, I would try to remind the mother that her love and dedication counted for real. And, quite possibly, that her misfortune was not meant to happen.

For the most part, I would try to understand that she suffered a terrible, irreparable loss and needs to express her sorrow. And maybe remind her that it won't last forever.

No heaven and no hell? That their children are reduced to dust as they came? That the man who murdered them who took his life is also Dust and there is no justice for them either?

Pretty much. I don't see that as being much of a problem.

Both parties cease to exist, one guilty, one innocent, both have the same fate in the end.

Yes.

Or could it be more comforting that a God in control is with their babies now, that they know no suffering, feel no pain have no more tears and the man that took their life will be punished by a Just and perfect God.

I don't know that I can bring myself to encourage such a belief.

Where is the evil in my premise and the lack of evil in yours? I find evil in evildoing going unpunished. I find evil in a life given for no purpose but to die and cease to exist.
What say you?

Far as we can truly know, life has no inherent purpose, but that does not make it any less precious. If anything, we should value it that much more because it has an end and is so fragile.

 

[Lady B]

My explanation for this has always been that God created the universe, but gave people free will. This free will can cause evil people to do evil things, and god does not come down and intervene when say 13 children die. There are murders deaths and atrocities committed everyday throughout the world. People have their own free will, which we take for granted. As the question for why would a good god let evil things happen? It is exactly that. In the religious sense, the death of an innocent is not necessarily an evil thing. They are taken from their families and cause grief for others in their life, but they are in a better place now.

Apart from some non essential difference, I agree. Evil is relative to mans interpretation

 

[Lady B]

Mankind turned it's back on God and so God turned His back on mankind. When we try to live without God we must face the consequences. We do not allow God in school so how can He protect children there. God allows thing to happen because people do not allow Him to control things His way.

We have no power to allow or dissallow God to control things his way, God still has control whether we try to bann him or not.

 

[dolphin910]

What scriptural verses support this argument? It's been a while since I read the bible but I don't remember free will or original sin anywhere in there.

If anything everything is preordained, which makes God even more evil.

Why do you assume I am pertaining to the Christian Bible? Or Christianity in general?

 

[Lady B]

God is not responsible for the deaths of children at the hands of a murderer. As the Bible explains at James 1:13; "With evil things God cannot be tried nor does he himself try anyone." I believe the true God hates the wicked acts of men who are responsible for so much suffering. Genesis 6:7 says that "God felt hurt at his heart" over the badness and violence that filled the earth in Noah's day.
The bible explains that the first human murderer "originated with the wicked one (Satan the Devil)." 1 John 3:4. The Bible assures us that God will soon destroy the wicked, and resurrect back to life those in his memory. (Acts 24:15) So, IMO, God is not to blame for the wicked acts of men who ignore and disobey his commands. (Deuteronomy 32:4-6)

Did you read where I blamed God? saying he ordained or caused tragedy is not blaming him or attribiting to him evil intent. This is indeed a complicated doctrine and I agree with your supposition that the man who commited the act bears the blame entirely.

 

[Lady B]

It really depends a lot on the person. Generaly speaking, I would try to remind the mother that her love and dedication counted for real. And, quite possibly, that her misfortune was not meant to happen.

For the most part, I would try to understand that she suffered a terrible, irreparable loss and needs to express her sorrow. And maybe remind her that it won't last forever.




Pretty much. I don't see that as being much of a problem.




Yes.




I don't know that I can bring myself to encourage such a belief.




Far as we can truly know, life has no inherent purpose, but that does not make it any less precious. If anything, we should value it that much more because it has an end and is so fragile.

That is a fair assumption, As for me, I find no hope in life without purpose, I find no hope in this system of justice you have either. I would like to explore this more and try to understand your side. Lets put it into a courtroom scenario, one man takes anothers life, what to you would be justice? I have to make some dinner, but take your time and show me how justice plays out fairly for you

 

[Falvlun]

Interesting OP. I hope we can debate it civilly.

Here is my premise,
this is my belief based upon my scriptures.
God not only allows children to die, He causes them to die. Hard for us to fathom, granted, but True nevertheless in Scripture. If we say he did not cause it and only allowed it to happen then God would be reacting to free will of man to accomplish their own destruction, thus putting too much power in men and essentially tying God's hands. God ordained for this latest tragedy for his own purposes, we cannot know them, we are not our creator, so The bible tells us we must accept that their is a divine plan and God is in control completely.

I'm with you so far. While free-will can account for much evil done by people, it doesn't account for all, and at the end of the day, if God is omnipotent, the buck stops with Him.

So you have asked, where is the comfort in that? Why do religious peoples comfort families of these tragedies with this premise of a God in control? Well let me ask you Atheists would you attempt to comfort these mothers with your precept that there is no God? No heaven and no hell? That their children are reduced to dust as they came? That the man who murdered them who took his life is also Dust and there is no justice for them either? Both parties cease to exist, one guilty, one innocent, both have the same fate in the end.

Or could it be more comforting that a God in control is with their babies now, that they know no suffering,feel no pain have no more tears and the man that took their life will be punished by a Just and perfect God.

In many ways, religious beliefs do provide comfort and solace in difficult times. There have been many times when I hear of my friends' and family's heartbreaks, I wish I could say to them "You are in my prayers" or other such religious platitudes from my youth.

But I think it is important to remember that simply because we'd prefer something, just because a particular belief is more comforting or desirable, does not equate to its being true. For example, the existence of a real Santa Claus who really does bring presents to all children, whether they be rich or poor, would be a wonderful thing. But that doesn't make Santa real.

Where is the evil in my premise and the lack of evil in yours? I find evil in evildoing going unpunished. I find evil in a life given for no purpose but to die and cease to exist.
What say you?

Is it sad and unfortunate and uncomfortable that people die, and that bad people go unpunished? Sure. But I think it is difficult to call that evil. Evil to me implies intent, it implies a will behind it. If God doesn't exist, who is to blame for this evil? No one. It is just how things are. It is just nature. We can personify nature and call her cruel, but the fact is that nature's not intending, willing, purposefully doing anything. It's just existing.

You are free to call nature evil, but then again, nobody is particularly arguing that nature is benevolent.

Contrast this with an omnipotent God. Not only does this Being purposefully and willfully make decisions, but He has the power to enact His will in whatever way he desires.

Creation reflects the Creator. There are many beautiful aspects about the universe, as well as much suffering. This tells us that God, even though he is capable of eliminating suffering and was capable of creating a universe that never had any in the first place, chose not to. Some people would label this as evil, and indeed, we would probably judge most people who caused or allowed suffering to continue to be a bit twisted.

As for me, I'm not a fan of considering it evil. I think it displays that, apparently, lack of suffering was not high on God's priority list. This could mean two things: either something else is more important to God or else He's just not that great of a planner. If the former, then that makes God not omnibenevolent, but that doesn't automatically make someone evil. If the latter, then He is just incompetent, which again, isn't evil.

 

[Lady B]

Interesting OP. I hope we can debate it civilly.


I'm with you so far. While free-will can account for much evil done by people, it doesn't account for all, and at the end of the day, if God is omnipotent, the buck stops with Him.


In many ways, religious beliefs do provide comfort and solace in difficult times. There have been many times when I hear of my friends' and family's heartbreaks, I wish I could say to them "You are in my prayers" or other such religious platitudes from my youth.

But I think it is important to remember that simply because we'd prefer something, just because a particular belief is more comforting or desirable, does not equate to its being true. For example, the existence of a real Santa Claus who really does bring presents to all children, whether they be rich or poor, would be a wonderful thing. But that doesn't make Santa real.


Is it sad and unfortunate and uncomfortable that people die, and that bad people go unpunished? Sure. But I think it is difficult to call that evil. Evil to me implies intent, it implies a will behind it. If God doesn't exist, who is to blame for this evil? No one. It is just how things are. It is just nature. We can personify nature and call her cruel, but the fact is that nature's not intending, willing, purposefully doing anything. It's just existing.

You are free to call nature evil, but then again, nobody is particularly arguing that nature is benevolent.

Contrast this with an omnipotent God. Not only does this Being purposefully and willfully make decisions, but He has the power to enact His will in whatever way he desires.

Creation reflects the Creator. There are many beautiful aspects about the universe, as well as much suffering. This tells us that God, even though he is capable of eliminating suffering and was capable of creating a universe that never had any in the first place, chose not to. Some people would label this as evil, and indeed, we would probably judge most people who caused or allowed suffering to continue to be a bit twisted.

As for me, I'm not a fan of considering it evil. I think it displays that, apparently, lack of suffering was not high on God's priority list. This could mean two things: either something else is more important to God or else He's just not that great of a planner. If the former, then that makes God not omnibenevolent, but that doesn't automatically make someone evil. If the latter, then He is just incompetent, which again, isn't evil.

I can't find one part here to pick apart Yes I believe we can debate respectfully after all.....

 

[no-body]

Why do you assume I am pertaining to the Christian Bible? Or Christianity in general?

The OP is referring to the biblical Abrahamic God. If we are going to reference other versions of God we could get into all sorts of different philosophy and beliefs.

What it comes down to is that God lets unimaginable evil and suffering happen just to prove a point and then tells us we don't get to judge him.

 

[Falvlun]

Mankind turned it's back on God and so God turned His back on mankind. When we try to live without God we must face the consequences. We do not allow God in school so how can He protect children there. God allows thing to happen because people do not allow Him to control things His way.

This makes God seem to be rather petty and vengeful, though. Especially so, since it's not like he's gone out of his way to make himself and his desires easily understandable, accessible, and obvious to everyone. (If this is so important to him, why would he rely on really old manuscripts, subject to different interpretations, unintelligible to people raised in different cultures, and riddled with translation errors? Why would he rely on people to convey his message, when people are notoriously prone to getting things wrong, mental instabilities, and lying in order to obtain power and wealth? etc, etc?)

Not to mention, the expectation is entirely too high. I mean, in comparison to God, we would be like bacteria. Less than, actually. Do you expect a bacteria to comprehend and follow all of your desires? Do you even expect your dog to perfectly obey you? (And your dog has pretty concrete evidence of your existence!)

It also doesn't address the injustice of punishing innocent people for the crimes of others, and particularly children. Would you kill your dog's puppies because she stole food off the table? Is that fair?

And lastly, the free-will defense can only really reasonably be used to explain suffering caused by other people. It does not explain natural sources of suffering, such as natural disasters, disease, biological infirmity, etc.

 

[Lady B]

The OP is referring to the biblical Abrahamic God. If we are going to reference other versions of God we could get into all sorts of different philosophy and beliefs.

What it comes down to is that God lets unimaginable evil and suffering happen just to prove a point and then tells us we don't get to judge him.

Yes This thread is about My God, My beliefs of My God based on my scripture ,however anyone can contribute to their own beliefs as well ,I would be happy to hear them

 

[9Westy9]

Here is my premise,
this is my belief based upon my scriptures.
God not only allows children to die, He causes them to die. Hard for us to fathom, granted, but True nevertheless in Scripture. If we say he did not cause it and only allowed it to happen then God would be reacting to free will of man to accomplish their own destruction, thus putting too much power in men and essentially tying God's hands. God ordained for this latest tragedy for his own purposes, we cannot know them, we are not our creator, so The bible tells us we must accept that their is a divine plan and God is in control completely.

No real problems so far. Just wondering what you think of determinism vs free will. Do we have any free will or is everything determined by God?

So you have asked, where is the comfort in that? Why do religious peoples comfort families of these tragedies with this premise of a God in control? Well let me ask you Atheists would you attempt to comfort these mothers with your precept that there is no God? No heaven and no hell? That their children are reduced to dust as they came? That the man who murdered them who took his life is also Dust and there is no justice for them either? Both parties cease to exist, one guilty, one innocent, both have the same fate in the end.

Or could it be more comforting that a God in control is with their babies now, that they know no suffering,feel no pain have no more tears and the man that took their life will be punished by a Just and perfect God.

I'll admit that a belief that there exists a perfect afterlife is more comforting than the view that there is nothing after death.

Where is the evil in my premise and the lack of evil in yours? I find evil in evildoing going unpunished.I find evil in a life given for no purpose but to die and cease to exist.
What say you?

1) I can hardly see how atheism can be evil. Sure there's no "justice" but because atheism doesn't have any sort of "judge" it's unfair to call it evil because it doesn't punish murderers after they die on Earth

2) Not sure if this applies to you but doesn't God save anyone who is "truly repentant"? This would allow mass murderers to be saved and good people to go to hell.

3) I don't think a lack of punishment or a lack of justice is evil. I think Jesus would agree (John 3:16, Matthew 5:39)

 

[Lady B]

No real problems so far. Just wondering what you think of determinism vs free will. Do we have any free will or is everything determined by God?



I'll admit that a belief that there exists a perfect afterlife is more comforting than the view that there is nothing after death.



1) I can hardly see how atheism can be evil. Sure there's no "justice" but because atheism doesn't have any sort of "judge" it's unfair to call it evil because it doesn't punish murderers after they die on Earth

2) Not sure if this applies to you but doesn't God save anyone who is "truly repentant"? This would allow mass murderers to be saved and good people to go to hell.

3) I don't think a lack of punishment or a lack of justice is evil. I think Jesus would agree (John 3:16, Matthew 5:39)

I am cooking, but will respond to this as soon as I can, Thx.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Here is my premise,
this is my belief based upon my scriptures.
God not only allows children to die, He causes them to die. Hard for us to fathom, granted, but True nevertheless in Scripture.

That's my interpretation as well.

If we say he did not cause it and only allowed it to happen then God would be reacting to free will of man to accomplish their own destruction, thus putting too much power in men and essentially tying God's hands. God ordained for this latest tragedy for his own purposes, we cannot know them, we are not our creator, so The bible tells us we must accept that their is a divine plan and God is in control completely.

I think that in the model given by the Bible, ultimately, God's responsible. Personally, I don't feel any particular need to argue whether he knowingly allows people to act the way they do or whether he compels them to do it. Either way, God's culpable for what humans do.

So you have asked, where is the comfort in that? Why do religious peoples comfort families of these tragedies with this premise of a God in control? Well let me ask you Atheists would you attempt to comfort these mothers with your precept that there is no God? No heaven and no hell? That their children are reduced to dust as they came? That the man who murdered them who took his life is also Dust and there is no justice for them either? Both parties cease to exist, one guilty, one innocent, both have the same fate in the end.

How is this relevant? In the other thread, you were the one who suggested that belief in God is a comfort. Not that it's more of a comfort than atheism; that it's a comfort in its own right.

I think it's painfully obvious that sometimes things happen that aren't comforting. They're tragedies. They motivate us to make things better in the future.

Or could it be more comforting that a God in control is with their babies now, that they know no suffering,feel no pain have no more tears and the man that took their life will be punished by a Just and perfect God.

Why would they believe that? I mean, are you sure that all the children who were killed in the Sandy Hook shooting were part of the "elect"? Are you sure that the shooter isn't?

What if God saw fit to send Adam Lanza to Heaven and the children to Hell? Given your theology, can you say for sure that this didn't happen?

Where is the evil in my premise and the lack of evil in yours? I find evil in evildoing going unpunished.I find evil in a life given for no purpose but to die and cease to exist.
What say you?

I say that the morality of what you're doing depends on whether your beliefs are true. If you leave it up to God to comfort the afflicted and punish the evil, then if you're wrong, the afflicted go uncomforted and the evil go unpunished. I think it's much better to try to comfort the afflicted and punish evil as best we can in the here and now.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I'll admit that a belief that there exists a perfect afterlife is more comforting than the view that there is nothing after death.

... in the short term.

It's more comforting to think that you have a million dollars in the bank to think that you're broke, too. But if you actually don't have any money, will you be happier in the end if you live as if you're a millionaire until you've run up your credit cards and don't have any way to pay them off?