Why does my God allow children to die? Is he evil?

[Ingledsva]

It is this idea that most of you Christians have, - that people are born sinners, - that is so absolutely ridiculous.

That is probably the most obvious fact there could ever be. We have something dreadfully wrong with us and yes we all screw up constantly and the trail of damage from those mistakes or intentional wrongs is beyond our capacity to even see and ripples through human history like a disease. Nothing short of the spiritual explains our capacity for immorality. Lions may kill a few more gazelles than needed for food but what lion has ever tried to kill off all gazelles like we have done with each other. Apparently secularists have no solution either because we just keep getting worse. As Nietzsche said since poets and philosophers killed God in the 18th century then the 19th century will be the bloodiest in history, and a general madness will prevail. Not only was it the bloodiest it was bloodier than all previous centuries combined and not only are we mad but Nietzsche literally went insane. If you wish to claim the sun does not exist, up is down, left is right, and we are not immoral for convenience sake, then have at it, as Nietzsche predicted the madness that would produce such a claim.

And nothing you said had to do with the idea of being born sinners.

The reason people do these things, and most animals don't, is because of our higher brain function. We can think dark and sneaky. We can make real choices for ourselves, including bad ones.

*

 

[FranklinMichaelV.3]

[/FONT]


And nothing you said had to do with the idea of being born sinners.

The reason people do these things, and most animals don't, is because of our higher brain function. We can think dark and sneaky. We can make real choices for ourselves, including bad ones.

*

Dolphins Rape, have been known to kill porpoises for no reason.

Killer Whales beat up and take out chunks of Great White sharks, yet they don't eat them.

Ducks Rape

Lions will kill cubs to keep from having competition and at times will rape females.

The chimpanzee is also an extremely violent animal unlike it's cousin the Bonobo Chimp.

Lamprey have been responsible for at least two species of fish if I remember correctly.

 

[SkepticThinker]

God has promised a resurrection to judgement--- The children who died by the hand of God, now wont have lived totally wicked lives that their own parents would have taught them to do( false god worship-pagan practices) thus will be given the opportunity in Gods kingdom to learn and apply truth--if they do they will live forever.
One of satans very manipulative ways--getting parents to hand wickedness to their own children. its always been 99% mislead.

Wow. Just wow. So why don't we just kill all the babies now then, and save them this fall into wickedness followed by eternal torment that surely awaits then if we let them live to adulthood. Sounds like we'd be doing them a favor.

Sheesh.

 

[1robin]

[/font]
And nothing you said had to do with the idea of being born sinners.

So you agree we are sinners but your hang up is that we are born that way? That is a claim which all evidence that exists refutes but it seems to be a difference without a distinction so I will not argue it.

The reason people do these things, and most animals don't, is because of our higher brain function. We can think dark and sneaky. We can make real choices for ourselves, including bad ones.

Then there ought to be a brain capacity verses evil correlation in all of nature that is not there. Are Dolphins far more evil than jelly fish? In fact it is many times the stupidest of all of us or even a brain that is very damaged or dysfunctional that is responsible for the greatest evil. Neither Hitler nor Stalin were or above average intelligence yet created the greatest evils anyone has. The point you made apparently stemmed from desperation and the need to say something no matter how irrational to counter an very inconvenient claim I had made.

BTW Skeptical thinker made the bizarre argument that we are not more intelligent that animals when that was convenient. The mutually exclusive claims made by atheists are an argument against atheism even if it was true. You guys will say anything. As Chesterton said God could not be both a white mask on a black world and a black mask on a white world.

 

[1robin]

Wow. Just wow. So why don't we just kill all the babies now then, and save them this fall into wickedness followed by eternal torment that surely awaits then if we let them live to adulthood. Sounds like we'd be doing them a favor.

Sheesh.

Talk about Wow. This is simply ridiculous. There are a few minor issues that distinguish these two examples. I have never figured out what you see in equating two things that can't possibly be more unequal.

1. We are not God. We did not create the lives we actually do actually take by the millions for no good reason. We do not have any sovereignty that gives us any rights what so ever over another persons life unless a serious crime has been committed. IOW we have not one single characteristic that enables God to exercise judgment in these cases.

2. We have an infinitely (in comparison) small amount of knowledge by which to make decisions upon. God has all the knowledge that can potentially exist. We could and probably have killed innocent lives that would have cured cancer or obesity in the womb without any justification. God would know the future of each person and the consequences of his actions. We do not and yet justify killing the innocent for the mistakes of the guilty, yet we deny God the right to something infinitely more justifiable. That is not only just wrong it is morally delusional.

3. We are not living in a world completely corrupted by man. It is very off track but not every kid will be warped by their parents. Not every thought of every man is continuously evil as it was before the flood. There are a few bright spots left of Christian sanity and light. However as the Bible says the end times will be like the times before the flood. So like I have said we are heading that direction again but are not there yet, so even if we created life, even if we were omniscient, even if we were morally perfect (instead of morally insane, in general), your entire argument would still be invalid. Those that kill unborn human life in the womb on an industrial scale for no justifiable reason are wholly unqualified to judge anything much less God and your argument is evidence of that. It is like an insane child shooting his mother because they claimed the time out they were given was unfair.

I would say WOW to your statements but no word in English can convey how invalid they are so I will leave it there.

 

[adi2d]

Talk about Wow. This is simply ridiculous. There are a few minor issues that distinguish these two examples. I have never figured out what you see in equating two things that can't possibly be more unequal.

1. We are not God. We did not create the lives we actually do actually take by the millions for no good reason. We do not have any sovereignty that gives us any rights what so ever over another persons life unless a serious crime has been committed. IOW we have not one single characteristic that enables God to exercise judgment in these cases.

2. We have an infinitely (in comparison) small amount of knowledge by which to make decisions upon. God has all the knowledge that can potentially exist. We could and probably have killed innocent lives that would have cured cancer or obesity in the womb without any justification. God would know the future of each person and the consequences of his actions. We do not and yet justify killing the innocent for the mistakes of the guilty, yet we deny God the right to something infinitely more justifiable. That is not only just wrong it is morally delusional.

3. We are not living in a world completely corrupted by man. It is very off track but not every kid will be warped by their parents. Not every thought of every man is continuously evil as it was before the flood. There are a few bright spots left of Christian sanity and light. However as the Bible says the end times will be like the times before the flood. So like I have said we are heading that direction again but are not there yet, so even if we created life, even if we were omniscient, even if we were morally perfect (instead of morally insane, in general), your entire argument would still be invalid. Those that kill unborn human life in the womb on an industrial scale for no justifiable reason are wholly unqualified to judge anything much less God and your argument is evidence of that. It is like an insane child shooting his mother because they claimed the time out they were given was unfair.

I would say WOW to your statements but no word in English can convey how invalid they are so I will leave it there.

Can you try to stay on topic? This isn't an abortion thread. This is about children suffering. I realize we differ on when a child is a child.

Why does God allow children to suffer and die?

 

[SkepticThinker]

BTW Skeptical thinker made the bizarre argument that we are not more intelligent that animals when that was convenient. The mutually exclusive claims made by atheists are an argument against atheism even if it was true. You guys will say anything. As Chesterton said God could not be both a white mask on a black world and a black mask on a white world.

Uh, no I didn't. We were talking about evolution and who's "more evolved" and I was pointing out that we're all equally evolved.

Just because you still apparently do not understand that whole discussion, please don't misrepresent what I said. Thanks.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Talk about Wow. This is simply ridiculous. There are a few minor issues that distinguish these two examples. I have never figured out what you see in equating two things that can't possibly be more unequal.

1. We are not God. We did not create the lives we actually do actually take by the millions for no good reason. We do not have any sovereignty that gives us any rights what so ever over another persons life unless a serious crime has been committed. IOW we have not one single characteristic that enables God to exercise judgment in these cases.

2. We have an infinitely (in comparison) small amount of knowledge by which to make decisions upon. God has all the knowledge that can potentially exist. We could and probably have killed innocent lives that would have cured cancer or obesity in the womb without any justification. God would know the future of each person and the consequences of his actions. We do not and yet justify killing the innocent for the mistakes of the guilty, yet we deny God the right to something infinitely more justifiable. That is not only just wrong it is morally delusional.

3. We are not living in a world completely corrupted by man. It is very off track but not every kid will be warped by their parents. Not every thought of every man is continuously evil as it was before the flood. There are a few bright spots left of Christian sanity and light. However as the Bible says the end times will be like the times before the flood. So like I have said we are heading that direction again but are not there yet, so even if we created life, even if we were omniscient, even if we were morally perfect (instead of morally insane, in general), your entire argument would still be invalid. Those that kill unborn human life in the womb on an industrial scale for no justifiable reason are wholly unqualified to judge anything much less God and your argument is evidence of that. It is like an insane child shooting his mother because they claimed the time out they were given was unfair.

I would say WOW to your statements but no word in English can convey how invalid they are so I will leave it there.

Maybe you should read what I was responding to and save the "god is so much better than us" stuff for someone else:

God has promised a resurrection to judgement--- The children who died by the hand of God, now wont have lived totally wicked lives that their own parents would have taught them to do( false god worship-pagan practices) thus will be given the opportunity in Gods kingdom to learn and apply truth--if they do they will live forever.
One of satans very manipulative ways--getting parents to hand wickedness to their own children. its always been 99% mislead.



I just took this odd statement to it's logical conclusion. It sounds to me, like justification to kill children, which I find disturbing. Sorry.

 

[1robin]

Can you try to stay on topic? This isn't an abortion thread. This is about children suffering. I realize we differ on when a child is a child.

Why does God allow children to suffer and die?

The statements I made were all relevant, even if inconvenient for you. However you could have removed them all and my point would still be just as valid. Those that kill with little knowledge and even less reason and in far higher numbers are poor judges of a being with all knowledge, total justification, who actually created the life he took, put that life in eternal contentment without risking almost sure disqualification if left on Earth, and has done so in far smaller numbers.

Before you can even make a poor case, you must first show your are even remotely capable of doing so. First things first.

 

[1robin]

Uh, no I didn't. We were talking about evolution and who's "more evolved" and I was pointing out that we're all equally evolved.

That is not true either but it was intelligence we were discussing.

Just because you still apparently do not understand that whole discussion, please don't misrepresent what I said. Thanks.

I didn't and if I find time I will go get the clear statements for twisting, equivocating, and warping at your convenience.

 

[1robin]

Maybe you should read what I was responding to and save the "god is so much better than us" stuff for someone else:

Think I will keep it. The utter incapacity of the person making the judgment is just a little important.

God has promised a resurrection to judgement--- The children who died by the hand of God, now wont have lived totally wicked lives that their own parents would have taught them to do( false god worship-pagan practices) thus will be given the opportunity in Gods kingdom to learn and apply truth--if they do they will live forever.

One of satans very manipulative ways--getting parents to hand wickedness to their own children. its always been 99% mislead.



I just took this odd statement to it's logical conclusion. It sounds to me, like justification to kill children, which I find disturbing. Sorry.

My statements (including the ones that showed our lack of qualification to judge, plus others of many types) illustrated exactly why that was a ridiculous thing to equate. If you think beings that can't even remember the past are equally qualified to do as a being that knows the future does then I give up.

 

[michel]

I haven't read through this thread - apart from anything, I'd be too tired to post after doing so...

The basis (Fellow Christians please correct me if I am wrong) of our lives here upon Earth is to give us the opportunity to make a choice as to how we are to live our lives.

The last time I heard, God kicked Satan out of heaven for trying to take over as boss; Satan was then free to come and pester us lowly mortals here upon earth, and to recruit.

God -ultimately- will not and cannot (I believe) "interfere" with what goes on here, because, in doing so, he would, in effect, be meddling with our lives - during which we are free to make choices as to how we live our lives.

To equate the concept of God not allowing children to die - in a purely logical sense would be as near as expecting humans never to kill any form of living creature - and yet we do so - every day. that sounds harsh, and yet the nearest palatable way I can think of comparing this is in the case of the dictum of the scientists who watch and learn from the animal kingdom. they cannot and will not allow themselves to become emotionally involved with the carnage they are watching - when one animal catches and kills prey - even though I'll bet that most humans - as I do - cringe when we see videos of a lion (for example) catching, killing, and devouring an impala.

For one :Ecclesiastes - Wikiquote

I the Preacher was king over Israel in Jerusalem. And I gave my heart to seek and search out by wisdom concerning all things that are done under heaven: this sore travail hath God given to the sons of man to be exercised therewith. I have seen all the works that are done under the sun; and, behold, all is vanity and vexation of spirit. That which is crooked cannot be made straight: and that which is wanting cannot be numbered.

This, to me, is -in essence - what life here upon Earth is about-vexation of the spirit- for (as far as I am concerned and understand life to be so)- life is basically made up of every possible opportunity to fall foul of God's laws.

It is almost as if, the more one realises what God wants of us, the more impossible it becomes to live without sinning - and sinning is hurting God, by making him sad.

perhaps those little children who die in such dreadful conditions are actually better off than we, because they are "with God" in heaven soon after their short and brutal lives.

I realise that I have written this in an awfully "crude" manner, but I have tried to express the "bare bones" of the system, as I see it; the more I know of God, the more I realise how much I sin......... I almost wish I was ignorant - it would not be so painful...

 

[1robin]

I haven't read through this thread - apart from anything, I'd be too tired to post after doing so...

The basis (Fellow Christians please correct me if I am wrong) of our lives here upon Earth is to give us the opportunity to make a choice as to how we are to live our lives.

The last time I heard, God kicked Satan out of heaven for trying to take over as boss; Satan was then free to come and pester us lowly mortals here upon earth, and to recruit.

God -ultimately- will not and cannot (I believe) "interfere" with what goes on here, because, in doing so, he would, in effect, be meddling with our lives - during which we are free to make choices as to how we live our lives.

I can't claim to know I am right but my version of Christianity is orthodox, Biblical, and logical and I differ on a few points here.

1. I believe we live here to determine our allegiance. That will determine how we live or should do so but the latter is a derivative of the former primary reason God created us. We will never act perfectly in this life and perfection is the standard. We gain a perfect record on Christ's merits by faith not by acting well.

2. Agree about Satan though that is a course description.

3. God can and has interfered here, constantly. That is why were are theists not deists. Though he does as a result of sin not regulate with perfection natural events as he once did and will do again.

This, to me, is -in essence - what life here upon Earth is about-vexation of the spirit- for (as far as I am concerned and understand life to be so)- life is basically made up of every possible opportunity to fall foul of God's laws.

I do not believe life is about vexation though it is a constant part of it. Life is about discovering God and vexation can and does help in that effort.

perhaps those little children who die in such dreadful conditions are actually better off than we, because they are "with God" in heaven soon after their short and brutal lives.

That was a component of my argument but only one of many.

I realise that I have written this in an awfully "crude" manner, but I have tried to express the "bare bones" of the system, as I see it; the more I know of God, the more I realise how much I sin......... I almost wish I was ignorant - it would not be so painful...

Being ignorant might be less painful in this world but far more destructive concerning the next. Like pain it is regretfully necessary.

 

[SkepticThinker]

The statements I made were all relevant, even if inconvenient for you. However you could have removed them all and my point would still be just as valid. Those that kill with little knowledge and even less reason and in far higher numbers are poor judges of a being with all knowledge, total justification, who actually created the life he took, put that life in eternal contentment without risking almost sure disqualification if left on Earth, and has done so in far smaller numbers.

Before you can even make a poor case, you must first show your are even remotely capable of doing so. First things first.

Wait, so if you create a life you can take it?

 

[SkepticThinker]

That is not true either but it was intelligence we were discussing.

No, we were talking about being "more evolved" or "less evolved." You kept trying to make it about intelligence, and if you'll recall, I kept saying evolution is about a lot more than intelligence.

I didn't and if I find time I will go get the clear statements for twisting, equivocating, and warping at your convenience.

Do what you like.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Think I will keep it. The utter incapacity of the person making the judgment is just a little important.

My statements (including the ones that showed our lack of qualification to judge, plus others of many types) illustrated exactly why that was a ridiculous thing to equate. If you think beings that can't even remember the past are equally qualified to do as a being that knows the future does then I give up.

What? I'm qualified to judge whatever I like. I read the statement, followed it to its logical conclusion and responded.

Who are the beings who can't remember the past??

 

[SkepticThinker]

I can't claim to know I am right but my version of Christianity is orthodox, Biblical, and logical and I differ on a few points here.

1. I believe we live here to determine our allegiance. That will determine how we live or should do so but the latter is a derivative of the former primary reason God created us. We will never act perfectly in this life and perfection is the standard. We gain a perfect record on Christ's merits by faith not by acting well.

And that's one of the reasons I think it's immoral and not a system of morality in any sense of the word.

 

[michel]

I can't claim to know I am right but my version of Christianity is orthodox, Biblical, and logical and I differ on a few points here.

1. I believe we live here to determine our allegiance. That will determine how we live or should do so but the latter is a derivative of the former primary reason God created us. We will never act perfectly in this life and perfection is the standard. We gain a perfect record on Christ's merits by faith not by acting well.

Actually, I agree with what you say - despite my wording my post the way I did. I suppose my reason for posting what I did is that I cannot seem to forgive myself my sins even though I know that Jesus Christ can forgive me so long as I am truly repentant, and have faith in him. The trouble is that I also realise that my attitude (about not being able to forgive myself) is a sin in itself because I am denying Christ's sacrifice by my attitude - and that (presumably) shows that my faith is weak.. So I am a loser whichever way the coin drops - that is how I see it.

2. Agree about Satan though that is a course description.

Perhaps you are right - I don't know; maybe that is immaterial.

3. God can and has interfered here, constantly. That is why were are theists not deists. Though he does as a result of sin not regulate with perfection natural events as he once did and will do again.

Can you point me to scripture to help me understand that? (I am not dismissing what you say, but I would be interested to know from whence your belief comes.

I do not believe life is about vexation though it is a constant part of it. Life is about discovering God and vexation can and does help in that effort.

I have heard this same belief, that vexation makes us turn more to Christ (those of us who believe in him) for help - is that what you mean?

Being ignorant might be less painful in this world but far more destructive concerning the next. Like pain it is regretfully necessary.

Which seems to me to mean that life here has to be pretty awful for us to deserve any hope of salvation - which is a really depressing thought.

 

[McBell]

Wait, so if you create a life you can take it?

Yes.
But only if you are god.

Because whatever god does is right. Period.

 

[1robin]

Wait, so if you create a life you can take it?

I would not say there is a one to one ration there but the creation of the life plus a few more factors make the taking of it justifiable.