Should a poor person be tested the same as a rich person? Should a man be tested the same way as a woman? Different tests imo are a form of justice to the individual.
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Why does god need to test us?
- Thread starter SigurdReginson
- Start date
Should a poor person be tested the same as a rich person? Should a man be tested the same way as a woman? Different tests imo are a form of justice to the individual.
YoursTrue
Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Not all sins are like Adam's sin. So we didn't inherit sins of Adam and Eve, but we did inherit sin from them.
Are you suggesting that I was born in Australia, as a white male because that's a tailored test for me, whilst some other poor schmuck was born in war-torn Croatia?
Really?
in general, yes i am. You live a completely different life than the poor schmuck in war torn Croatia, he might have to make some questions decisions and choices to stay alive while you don't. You might have to worry about how you will provide a food and shelter for your family while the poor schmuck needs to worry about how he can kill the next person that tries to kill his family or rapes his daughter (sorry for the graphic imagery). Different lives, different tests.
Are you suggesting you and him should both be given the same test even though your lives are completely different?
No, more that he's been tested in much more extreme ways than I am, and all via circumstance outside his control. Seems completely unfair on him.
Consider the commandment to not kill. That is much simpler for me to comply with than him.
Perhaps your version of God is more contextual and nuanced than that, and would judge his actions in the context in which they were taken. But even then, I wonder why baby A and baby B would get such radically different tests right from birth, but then be compared at death.
Please note, your beliefs on this might be quite different from this generalisation. Just trying to pose my question clearly, but happy to listen and learn about your particular perspective too.
Huh.
That's an interesting conclusion to jump to. What do you think the motivation or goal in asking my question is?
Well I do not subscribe to any official religion but, the short, sweet and general answer from me would be is if everyone is born into the exact same situation, upbringing and belief system, what kind of world would that be? Just take a moment and imagine if 100% of the world "was born in Australia, as a white male". You see where I am going with this?
I am trying to use a very general version of the God of the 3 Abrahamic faiths (if that's possible). Some will say the Christian version is a lot different but, in some Christian sects its the same so that's what i am going with.
See my reply to the first quote above.
Had we been speaking about a specific religion then it might be but as i said i am being as general as i can
Because I honestly find it hard to take anyone that's comparing Nordic Mythology to an "official religion". Whatever your motive might be, imo it does not seem like a genuine one otherwise, less mythology and more focus on the religion and a show of real interest. Your questions are very general and basic which comes off as very lazy and little to zero research done prior to asking. No effort = lack of sincerity imo. But hey, I am just some random dude on a random site.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
No, I don't believe that. O believe that Adam and Eve were mythical figures and that the story of Adam and Eve is an allegory. The full explanation of what I believe about the allegory is in this chapter: 30: ADAM AND EVE
I believe that there was a real man called Adam and that He was the first Prophet of the Adamic Cycle of religion. I also believe we inherited the sins of Adam, but not because he ate an apple from a tree. This is how I believe the descendants of Adam inherited the sins of Adam:
“For the spirit and the soul of Adam, when they were attached to the human world, passed from the world of freedom into the world of bondage, and His descendants continued in bondage. This attachment of the soul and spirit to the human world, which is sin, was inherited by the descendants of Adam, and is the serpent which is always in the midst of, and at enmity with, the spirits and the descendants of Adam. That enmity continues and endures. For attachment to the world has become the cause of the bondage of spirits, and this bondage is identical with sin, which has been transmitted from Adam to His posterity. It is because of this attachment that men have been deprived of essential spirituality and exalted position.”
Abdu'l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, pp. 124-125
The following is what I believe the story of Adam and Eve means and how Jesus freed us from sin.
“Adam is the spirit of Adam, and Eve is His soul; the tree is the human world, and the serpent is that attachment to this world which constitutes sin, and which has infected the descendants of Adam. Christ by His holy breezes saved men from this attachment and freed them from this sin. The sin in Adam is relative to His position. Although from this attachment there proceed results, nevertheless, attachment to the earthly world, in relation to attachment to the spiritual world, is considered as a sin. The good deeds of the righteous are the sins of the Near Ones. This is established. So bodily power is not only defective in relation to spiritual power; it is weakness in comparison. In the same way, physical life, in comparison with eternal life in the Kingdom, is considered as death. So Christ called the physical life death, and said: “Let the dead bury their dead.” 8 Though those souls possessed physical life, yet in His eyes that life was death.”
Some Answered Questions, p. 126
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Trailblazer
Veteran Member
No, I do not believe we did because Satan is not a real person. I believe we were made in the image of God so we were born good, but after we are born we "Fall" from our high spiritual position as I described it in the previous post.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I believe we inherited sin from Adam, as I just described two posts above.
Neuropteron
Active Member
Hi,
Not everything is Satan's fault.
The discussion was about God testing us.
Revelation 2:10 states the Devil will keep on throwing some of you into prison that you may be fully put to the test and that you may have tribulation.
Hebrew 2:18 shows that Jesus helped those being put to the test" he is able to come to the aid of those who are being put to the test".
Nonetheless God does have a part since He permits the testing. I'm stating the obvious here since he is almighty. The reasons for this is another subject entirely.
On the other hand James explains in Ja 1:13 "When under trial, let no one say:""I am being tried by God." For with evil things God cannot be tried nor does he himself try anyone.
However as I mentioned, there are scriptures that indicate that God put some to the test.
ex. Psalm 20:2 "Examine me, O Jehovah, and put me to the test.Refine my kidneys and my heart."
It seems that the Bible makes a distinction between a test that has the objective of helping a person in some way and a trial that has the intention of harming a person and making him fail in his devotion to God.
Our discussion has helped to fine tune my understanding of this subject.
Thank you.
I don’t know how many hold the belief, but I think it is what the Bible tells. But, maybe I have misunderstood. Here are the scriptures so that you can look for yourself and think what is the correct meaning.
1. Everything was good at the beginning:
God saw everything that he had made, and, behold, it was very good.
Gen. 1:31
2. People rejected God by listening the serpent rather than God:
When the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit of it, and ate; and she gave some to her husband with her, and he ate.
Gen. 3:6
3. People were expelled:
Therefore Yahweh God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
Gen. 3:23
4. People are in death:
Most assuredly I tell you, he who hears my word, and believes him who sent me, has eternal life, and doesn't come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
John 5:24
5. Only God can destroy soul:
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Matt. 10:28
The only think I've ever understood by the notion of God "testing us," is that it is our faith that is being tested. I believe many have said that the Abraham/Isaac near-sacrifice was such a test, for example.
Of course, if God does need to do this, then it stands to reason that His supposed omniscience goes out the window. There's no need to test for what you already know.
Of course, if God does need to do this, then it stands to reason that His supposed omniscience goes out the window. There's no need to test for what you already know.
Bird123
Well-Known Member
What do you get when you attempt to use pain or punishment to alter the actions of others? You teach them if you want to control the actions of others, you hurt them. Is this really what you want to teach your children? Is this really an intelligent way? Can you not conceive of any other way?
Clearly, that holy book, along with yourself, value so many petty things like payback, condemning, judging, intimidating, coercing, and punishing all in what you excuse as justice.
Will you teach your children that in order to make people do what you want to judge, condemn, hurt, control, intimidate and coerce to get your way?
What is more important? Payback, Revenge, and punishment OR doing what is Best for the one making those bad choices??
Isn't payback, revenge and punishment just a form of Hate?? Instead of generating more hate from hate, SOLVE THE PROBLEM!! Solving the problem is surely a much better choice than teaching or spreading hate.
Lots of people want payback and revenge. Religions use this and feed your need in the name of justice. This is Not God!! Why is it important to you that Those making bad choices PAY??
Let's look how God really handles this. God returns all our actions back to us in time. This includes the good as well as the bad choices. When one, through living those lessons, understands all sides, Intelligence will make the Best choices.
There is no need to hate, condemn, punish, payback, revenge or teach others to do those petty things. There is not even a need to define good or evil since, in the end, Everyone will be making the Best choices!!
With Intelligence, Everything can be done through Unconditional Love. Like I said, the only intelligent choice is to work at Solving the Real Problems instead of payback. Everyone wins if you do.
God's learning system works through free choices. If you demand payback, revenge and punishment, these things will return to teach you what these things actually are. If the problem is ignored instead of solved, the problem will never go away. The choice is in each of our hands. What do you want? Choose what lessons you want to learn.
You will never create a Heavenly state valuing petty things. This is something each must learn for themselves. No one can do it for you.
That's what I see. It's very clear!!
Man’s main test I believe, is to trust that God knows what is best for us and to follow His counsels and advice whenever He sends His Manifestation.
In this age He has said that what is best for humanity is to unite as one family and put aside all racial, national and religious hatreds and replace these with love for all humanity.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Who said anything about using pain and punishment to alter the actions of others?
Who said anything about payback, condemning, judging, intimidating, coercing?
What is best is rewarding good behavior and punishing bad behavior. That is what good parents do and that is what God does.
Who said anything about revenge? Deserved punishment is not revenge. Just punishment is not hate.
Who said anything spreading hate? Just punishment is not hate. The problem can still be solved.
It is called justice, ever heard of it? That is what the entire court system is based upon.
You do not know how God handles anything because you have no way to know, so you make things up to suit your own fancy and create God in your own image.
Right, and that is why the world is in such a mess. Intelligence made the Best choices.
Sure they will, just like they are doing now.
You live in a complete fantasy world.God loves unconditionally but doles out rewards and punishments because that is justice.
Quite the contrary, when the ‘appropriate punishment’ is not applied, the problem is ignored and the perpetrator continues in his ways.
That's what I see. It's very clear!!
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I can agree with that as I believe that everything that God created was good.
I believe that the story of Adam and Eve is an allegory, not a true story. I believe that the story of Adam and Eve who ate from the tree, and their expulsion from Paradise is a symbol. The story contains divine mysteries and universal meanings, and it is capable of many explanations.
I believe that there was a real man called Adam and that He was the first Prophet of the Adamic Cycle of religion. I also believe we inherited the sins of Adam, but not because he ate an apple from a tree. This is how I believe the descendants of Adam inherited the sins of Adam:
The meaning of the serpent is attachment to the human world. This attachment of the spirit to the human world led the soul and spirit of Adam from the world of freedom to the world of bondage and caused Him to turn from the Kingdom of God to the human world. When the soul and spirit of Adam entered the human world, He came out from the paradise of freedom and fell into the world of bondage. From the height of purity and absolute goodness, He entered into the world of good and evil.
So the “fall” of man is man’s attachment to the world and that has become the cause of the bondage of spirits. This bondage is identical with sin, which has been transmitted from Adam to His posterity. It is because of this attachment that men have been deprived of essential spirituality and exalted position.
The full explanation of what I believe is in this chapter: 30: ADAM AND EVE
People who do not have eternal life are spiritually dead. That is why Jesus said “Let the dead bury their own dead, but you go and preach the kingdom of God.” I believe John 5:24 refers to passing from spiritual death to spiritual life, which is eternal life, a state of the soul that is near to God. He who hears the Word of Jesus and believes in God who sent Him has eternal life.
(John 3:16, John 3:36, John 17:3, 1 John 5:13, John 5:24, John 11:25-26, John 4:13-14)
I believe that the soul is a creation of God and God would never destroy what He created. I do not believe that the soul can be destroyed but rather a person can lose their soul in which case they will not have eternal life. Such a person is spiritually dead even though their soul continues to live in the spiritual world. I guess you could liken this to hell.
Matthew 16:24-26 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?
Jesus was saying to deny our selfish desires, things we want that are not of God, and to follow in His Way. For whoever will live for self shall lose his eternal life, but whoever will sacrifice his life for the sake of Jesus and God shall gain eternal life. It is the soul that gains eternal life, not the body.
So if we live for self and the worldly things we gain the whole world but we lose our soul because our soul will not gain eternal life, it will lose eternal life.
YoursTrue
Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
OK, that is what the Bible says, and that is what seems apparent regarding the status of the human race. So I think it's worthwhile to discuss what Adam's sin was and why and how he passed on sin and what type of sin it was. Since we, unlike Adam, were not born without sin. Adam was different. He was made sinless and then he sinned. We have inherited sin. Adam did not. Perhaps we can talk more about this later. If I miss your response, please message me so I look for it. Thanks. Unfortunately I don't have time to read everything and so miss some posts. Thanks again.
P.S. OK, I just noted that you think the account of Adam and Eve is an allegory and not actual. Thus the discussion can be over at that point.