Why does god need to test us?

[SigurdReginson]

Man’s main test I believe, is to trust that God knows what is best for us and to follow His counsels and advice whenever He sends His Manifestation.

In this age He has said that what is best for humanity is to unite as one family and put aside all racial, national and religious hatreds and replace these with love for all humanity.

What do you think about the tests of god placed on man kind on a personal level, though? Especially in terms of personal suffering?

 

[Trailblazer]

What do you think about the tests of god placed on man kind on a personal level, though? Especially in terms of personal suffering?

I do not agree with the quote below but I may as well prepare you for the typical Baha'i answer.
To put it bluntly, I am tired of hastening to battlefields, and I won't do it with joy and gladness, although I will do it because I never once ran away from a test since I am not a coward.

“Thou hast written concerning the tests that have come upon thee. To the sincere ones, tests are as a gift from God, the Exalted, for a heroic person hasteneth, with the utmost joy and gladness, to the tests of a violent battlefield, but the coward is afraid and trembles and utters moaning and lamentation. Likewise, an expert student prepareth and memorizeth his lessons and exercises with the utmost effort, and in the day of examination he appeareth with infinite joy before the master. Likewise, the pure gold shineth radiantly in the fire of test. Consequently, it is made clear that for holy souls, trials are as the gift of God, the Exalted; but for weak souls they are an unexpected calamity. This test is just as thou hast written: it removeth the rust of egotism from the mirror of the heart until the Sun of Truth may shine therein. For, no veil is greater than egotism and no matter how thin that covering may be, yet it will finally veil man entirely and prevent him from receiving a portion from the eternal bounty.”
Bahá’í World Faith, pp. 371-372

It is easy for other people to say we should hasten to the tests of a violent battlefield with joy and gladness if they are not the ones who have been subjected to violent tests, but no man can know what another man suffers unless he has walked a mile in his moccasins, so they have no right to judge other people.

 

[SigurdReginson]

I do not agree with the quote below but I may as well prepare you for the typical Baha'i answer.
To put it bluntly, I am tired of hastening to battlefields, and I won't do it with joy and gladness, although I will do it because I never once ran away from a test since I am not a coward.

“Thou hast written concerning the tests that have come upon thee. To the sincere ones, tests are as a gift from God, the Exalted, for a heroic person hasteneth, with the utmost joy and gladness, to the tests of a violent battlefield, but the coward is afraid and trembles and utters moaning and lamentation. Likewise, an expert student prepareth and memorizeth his lessons and exercises with the utmost effort, and in the day of examination he appeareth with infinite joy before the master. Likewise, the pure gold shineth radiantly in the fire of test. Consequently, it is made clear that for holy souls, trials are as the gift of God, the Exalted; but for weak souls they are an unexpected calamity. This test is just as thou hast written: it removeth the rust of egotism from the mirror of the heart until the Sun of Truth may shine therein. For, no veil is greater than egotism and no matter how thin that covering may be, yet it will finally veil man entirely and prevent him from receiving a portion from the eternal bounty.”
Bahá’í World Faith, pp. 371-372

It is easy for other people to say we should hasten to the tests of a violent battlefield with joy and gladness if they are not the ones who have been subjected to violent tests, but no man can know what another man suffers unless he has walked a mile in his moccasins, so they have no right to judge other people.

Yah... I'm kind of with you on this, @Trailblazer.

My dad was of drafting age when our country was drafting people into the Vietnam War. He actually joined the Air Force willingly. We have a long line of military service in our family dating at least a hundred years, so why not?

Here's the thing, though... They sent him to a new program of theirs, instead. See, the Air Force wasn't supposed to have ground units during that time, but they needed people to "guard" their air bases in the sense Vietnamese jungles.

So my dad got Ranger training, and they shipped em out to root through those jungles and kill the locals who were secret Vietcong. Some of these people included the folks who waited his table or gave him a haircut in town the day before.

Now, since they wanted to keep their new recruits tight lipped about the whole unit they were in that wasn't supposed to exist, they'd give those who questioned the processes rifle butts to the face. My dad got a few - he's someone with a questioning mind like mine. It worked, though... After the war was over, the unit "went away" and was disbanded without incident; nothing was heard about it for quite a while. They reactivated it later on above board, though. When he goes to his 822nd reunions, the new soldiers in the unit shower the older generation like my dad with praise since they were the trail blazers... They don't really bring up the whole physical intimidation part, but I guess that's not why they're all there.

822 Base Defense Squadron (ACC) > Air Force Historical Research Agency > Display

As for my dad, he got a lifetime of PTSD that wasn't treated until me and my siblings were well into adulthood. It nearly tore my family apart, but after dad figured out what was happening, or what PTSD even was, he was able to heal. Like I said, though, PTSD is a lifelong thing.

What was the point of that war again? Seems like a lot of suffering for no reason to me...

 

[1213]

...
So if we live for self and the worldly things we gain the whole world but we lose our soul because our soul will not gain eternal life, it will lose eternal life.

I don’t think there is much difference in losing soul, or destroying soul, in any case it is lost. But, because Bible tells God can destroy soul, I believe it can happen and I believe it will also happen in some cases.

 

[The_Fisher_King]

I've heard it said that god tests us with the challenges we face in life... But why? What's the point? What's the end goal of this test?

In known nordic mythologies, Odin takes the best warriors with him to Valhalla to train and get ready to fight in Ragnarok. Their test in life shows their fighting skill so they can be of actual use to the gods in that apocalyptic war. That makes sense to me...

What about Yahweh, though? What possible reason is there for testing us? What's this test for, and why does he need/want for us to pass it? Why does he care whether or not we pass this test, and why did he even make the test in the first place?

Maybe God doesn't need to test us. Maybe the tests are for our own benefit alone. To try our claims to faith in God, whether those claims can stand up to the trials of life. And if our faith remains strong despite those trials and indeed despite the blessings that God gives us, for those can also be trials, we will be rewarded, perhaps with some good things in this life, but certainly with good things in the Afterlife.

 

[InChrist]

I've heard it said that god tests us with the challenges we face in life... But why? What's the point? What's the end goal of this test?

In known nordic mythologies, Odin takes the best warriors with him to Valhalla to train and get ready to fight in Ragnarok. Their test in life shows their fighting skill so they can be of actual use to the gods in that apocalyptic war. That makes sense to me...

What about Yahweh, though? What possible reason is there for testing us? What's this test for, and why does he need/want for us to pass it? Why does he care whether or not we pass this test, and why did he even make the test in the first place?

I think God tests each person through the challenges of life here in this temporal fallen world to see whether we chose good or evil, right or wrong, self or others, God or satan and who wants freedom freedom sin and transformation to live with their Creator in the eternal new heaven and earth.

 

[SigurdReginson]

I think God tests each person through the challenges of life here in this temporal fallen world to see whether we chose good or evil, right or wrong, self or others, God or satan and who wants freedom freedom sin and transformation to live with their Creator in the eternal new heaven and earth.

Hmmm.... Do you think people would make better choices if they had irrefutable proof that good existed?

The only reason I'm an atheist is because I haven't found enough evidence for each religion I've seen. It seem to me as though those religions are a product of man.

Speaking for myself, I'm not closed off to the idea of god(s), and I actively try and educate myself on all that I come across. I can be convinced if I feel there's enough evidence.

 

[SigurdReginson]

Maybe God doesn't need to test us. Maybe the tests are for our own benefit alone. To try our claims to faith in God, whether those claims can stand up to the trials of life. And if our faith remains strong despite those trials and indeed despite the blessings that God gives us, for those can also be trials, we will be rewarded, perhaps with some good things in this life, but certainly with good things in the Afterlife.

Why does god care more that we have faith than, say, beliefs based on hard, tangible evidence?

 

[InChrist]

Hmmm.... Do you think people would make better choices if they had irrefutable proof that good existed?

The only reason I'm an atheist is because I haven't found enough evidence for each religion I've seen. It seem to me as though those religions are a product of man.

Speaking for myself, I'm not closed off to the idea of god(s), and I actively try and educate myself on all that I come across. I can be convinced if I feel there's enough evidence.

Your post is very thoughtful and sincerely written. I appreciate your response.
Did you mean would people make better choices if they had irrefutable proof of “good or God”?
Either way, I don’t think so, at least according to the scriptures and what human nature reveals. In the beginning, in the garden, it says everything was good and the first humans had direct contact with God, yet still chose wrong. The scriptures also indicate that Jesus Christ will rule the earth for 1000 years, bringing restoration and peace, but at the end of the 1000 years many will rebel and choose evil and violence.

 

[SigurdReginson]

Your post is very thoughtful and sincerely written. I appreciate your response.
Did you mean would people make better choices if they had irrefutable proof of “good or God”?
Either way, I don’t think so, at least according to the scriptures and what human nature reveals. In the beginning, in the garden, it says everything was good and the first humans had direct contact with God, yet still chose wrong. The scriptures also indicate that Jesus Christ will rule the earth for 1000 years, bringing restoration and peace, but at the end of the 1000 years many will rebel and choose evil and violence.

I see! Thanks for your insight.

Oh, and yes I did mean god, though I guess by the same extent "good", which is gods will. If I knew god existed, and that he was good, I would seek to serve him I feel.

 

[InChrist]

I see! Thanks for your insight.

Oh, and yes I did mean god, though I guess by the same extent "good", which is gods will. If I knew god existed, and that he was good, I would seek to serve him I feel.

I think since you seem quite sincere in your desire to know whether God exists, I have no doubt that God will reveal Himself to you with all the evidence you need. I don’t know how or when, but it will be in a way that makes sense to you personally.

 

[Bird123]

Who said anything about using pain and punishment to alter the actions of others?

Who said anything about payback, condemning, judging, intimidating, coercing?

What is best is rewarding good behavior and punishing bad behavior. That is what good parents do and that is what God does.

Who said anything about revenge? Deserved punishment is not revenge. Just punishment is not hate.

Who said anything spreading hate? Just punishment is not hate. The problem can still be solved.

It is called justice, ever heard of it? That is what the entire court system is based upon.

You do not know how God handles anything because you have no way to know, so you make things up to suit your own fancy and create God in your own image.

Right, and that is why the world is in such a mess. Intelligence made the Best choices.

Sure they will, just like they are doing now. You live in a complete fantasy world.

God loves unconditionally but doles out rewards and punishments because that is justice.

Quite the contrary, when the ‘appropriate punishment’ is not applied, the problem is ignored and the perpetrator continues in his ways.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

You really have no clue do you? This world is not a mess. This world is a Masterpiece.When you can see that perhaps you might be starting to have a clue of what I speak of.

You are blind to so very much. Since you do not understand those petty things I speak of that you value so much, the lessons will teach you. There is much yet for you to understand.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

 

[The_Fisher_King]

Why does god care more that we have faith than, say, beliefs based on hard, tangible evidence?

When I say that I have faith in God I am saying that I love God, that accompanying that love is trust in God, and complete trust in God. If God wants anything it is that we love Them with this kind of complete devotion.

EDIT: And it is that love, that trust, that devotion that God values more than a total reliance on beliefs based on hard evidence, so I believe.

 

[Trailblazer]

As for my dad, he got a lifetime of PTSD that wasn't treated until me and my siblings were well into adulthood. It nearly tore my family apart, but after dad figured out what was happening, or what PTSD even was, he was able to heal. Like I said, though, PTSD is a lifelong thing.

Funny you mention PTSD. I have PTSD big-time and I never recovered from it, although I have been in counseling for it for over 20 years, since I discovered I had it. Previous to those days I was in counseling for depression and anxiety and I got over those, but I never got over the PTSD. My PTSD originated when I was 12 years old with the sudden death of my father, and then it was triggered every time a cat died. Then it goes into hiding until something else triggers it. Now it is back with a vengeance because I just found out that my husband has some very serious medical issues and I know he could die. I cannot even imagine living through that but if it happens I will have to live through it because God does not give an f how many tests He sends us or how much we suffer as a result. Now God can send me to hell for feeling that way and I do not give a f because I am already in hell.

 

[Trailblazer]

I don’t think there is much difference in losing soul, or destroying soul, in any case it is lost. But, because Bible tells God can destroy soul, I believe it can happen and I believe it will also happen in some cases.

Yes, in any case it is lost, and that is why it is referred to as a lost soul.

 

[Trailblazer]

You really have no clue do you? This world is not a mess. This world is a Masterpiece.When you can see that perhaps you might be starting to have a clue of what I speak of.

There is no Masterpiece except in your own head. There is just constant suffering for many people. Just because you escaped that suffering that does not mean that everyone can escape it, and if you say they can escape it that is sheer arrogance because it is based upon what you were able to do.

You are blind to so very much. Since you do not understand those petty things I speak of that you value so much, the lessons will teach you. There is much yet for you to understand.

I understand more than you will ever know because I have been forced to learn many lessons. I hold nothing petty dear, as justice is not petty.

 

[SigurdReginson]

When I say that I have faith in God I am saying that I love God, that accompanying that love is trust in God, and complete trust in God. If God wants anything it is that we love Them with this kind of complete devotion.

EDIT: And it is that love, that trust, that devotion that God values more than a total reliance on beliefs based on hard evidence, so I believe.

Why should people love and trust in god?

 

[Trailblazer]

OK, that is what the Bible says, and that is what seems apparent regarding the status of the human race. So I think it's worthwhile to discuss what Adam's sin was and why and how he passed on sin and what type of sin it was. Since we, unlike Adam, were not born without sin. Adam was different. He was made sinless and then he sinned. We have inherited sin. Adam did not. Perhaps we can talk more about this later. If I miss your response, please message me so I look for it. Thanks. Unfortunately I don't have time to read everything and so miss some posts. Thanks again.
P.S. OK, I just noted that you think the account of Adam and Eve is an allegory and not actual. Thus the discussion can be over at that point.

I do not believe in Adam and Eve, but I believe in Adam and I believe He was born sinless because He was a Prophet/Manifestation of God.

I believe that we inherited the propensity to sin from Adam, but not because Adam ate an apple from a tree. Rather, when Adam was born he entered into the world of good and evil, the material world... The attachment to the material world, which is sin, was inherited by the descendants of Adam... It is because of this attachment that men have been deprived of essential spirituality and instead have the propensity to sin.

 

[The_Fisher_King]

Why should people love and trust in god?

Because God loves us, and They will reward our love in turn with yet greater love for us.

 

[Trailblazer]

Because God loves us, and They will reward our love in turn with yet greater love for us.

Who is They?