I prefer the witness of those of that time rather that your viewpoint. They have a better handle on what happened IMONeither of them wrote what they saw so far as I know.
As far as the empty tomb goes, as I explained earlier
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I prefer the witness of those of that time rather that your viewpoint. They have a better handle on what happened IMONeither of them wrote what they saw so far as I know.
As far as the empty tomb goes, as I explained earlier
You would like to believe that but not really. You haven't provided substantive refutations of who wrote it. People more intelligent than you or I have researched it and came to the conclusion of its veracity.I
The reason that you resist the fact that the Gospels were written by random people is because the foundations of your religious doctrine would be undermined.
You would like to believe that but not really. You haven't provided substantive refutations of who wrote it.
LOL. That like the "top men" from the end of the first Indiana Jones movie?People more intelligent than you or I have researched it and came to the conclusion of its veracity.
You would like to believe that but not really. You haven't provided substantive refutations of who wrote it. People more intelligent than you or I have researched it and came to the conclusion of its veracity.
Some say "scholars say"... as if those scholars have greater import that others... but we still have the historical support of those of their times and/or soon after as well as modern scholars.
Yes, the total lack of rational historic evidence for Jesus means that he, like us one day, is no more than dust blowing around in the winds of the Middle East. There is no heaven, no afterlife. The earth will burn out one day when our sun supernovas. The universe itself is dying one day at a time and in some countless eon trillions upon trillions of years from now it will go dark and silent and that will be the end of it--of everything actually. So folks enjoy what little time this life has granted you. It is very fleeting.What does a human claim lives on ?
Recorded speaking voice. Consciousness.
Teaching Christ consciousness life recorded never died. Body however did. Memory lives on image voice recorded.
The actual scientific teaching.
I support and will fight for your right to have a personal opinion.Like I said, that is just you resisting. For me this doesn't matter. The fact that the gospels were written anonymously by random people later in time is just a side-show. If you were able to produce signed and witnessed affidavits from all 12 apostles, plus Jesus of his existence and of his alleged miracles. It would not make your case that Jesus is the child of a god.
LOL. That like the "top men" from the end of the first Indiana Jones movie?
More relevantly, the consensus view among new Testament historians is that the Gospels were not written by the names assigned to them by the Church.
Since most new Testament historians are also Christians, again like I said, this is just you resisting.
Like who exactly? Christian theologians who fancy themselves Bible scholars, like Lane Craig and Mike Licona?????
The vast majority of scholars who have no biases the way Christian "scholars" with an agenda to push do, all say the gospels were written anonymously and that it was Irenaeus of Lyon who gave them their names of Matthew, Mark etc. Ever wonder why only 4 gospels chosen for the Bible when about 50 exist? It's because Irenaeus liked the number 4-- because in those days there were 4 corners of the flat earth and 4 pillars to hold up that flat earth. Pretty Holy Spirit-inspired, ain't it?
You'll soon find that blustering claims count for very little. The fact is:All right, you tell me which historian calls Jesus by name--and please don't haul out that old canard Josephus. His works have been so doctored with edits and interpolations by Eusebius that we can't trust a thing he writes. Nothing from Josephus survives until after Eusebius gets his greasy fingers on it.
You'll soon find that blustering claims count for very little. The fact is:
The first and most extensive reference to Jesus in the Antiquities, found in Book 18, states that Jesus was the Messiah and a wise teacher who was crucified by Pontius Pilate. It is commonly called the Testimonium Flavianum.[1][3][4] Almost all modern scholars reject the authenticity of this passage in its present form, while the majority of scholars nevertheless hold that it contains an authentic nucleus referencing the execution of Jesus by Pilate, which was then subject to Christian interpolation and/or alteration.[3][4][5][6][7][8][9][10] The exact nature and extent of the Christian redaction remains unclear, however.[11][12]
Modern scholarship has largely acknowledged the authenticity of the second reference to Jesus in the Antiquities, found in Book 20, Chapter 9, which mentions "the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James."[13] This reference is considered to be more authentic than the Testimonium.[14][1][15][16][17][18] [19]
[ source ]
But you claim to know better and strut your "old canard" with comical certainty.
Since we are not talking about my personal opinion, but the professional, scholarly findings of the community of New Testament scholars, what you are really doing is pretending it is my opinion so as to dishonestly ignore the academic consensus of mostly Christian historians. It's not that you do not have a need to answer, but that you have no answer.I support and will fight for your right to have a personal opinion.
Since that is all I find here, there is no need to answer.
Why didn't God leave behind a huge trove of secular evidence for Jesus having lived on earth, dying on the cross and all the supernatural events
I don't know if you're still participating in the thread (since page 7 is kind of long in my opinion), but in addition to my other answer I have another. Evidence based faith is (my opinion) not Christian. In other words I think what you actually left was idolatry and a con rather than faith. The lack of evidence that you cite supports what I am saying here. None of the ancient material is designed in such a way that it can fool anybody by itself. There are endless clues directly in the Christian and Jewish texts that these are not to be read literally, and there are caveats, and there are signs of edits, and there are previous works upon which these are based. Those who manufactured evidence to fool you were most to blame, but you fell for it. It was your own error which allowed for that for a time, and it was to your shame, not that it was your plan or intent. Cons are everywhere, and they seize upon whatever materials they can find to make promises they can't keep. I think you fell for the con. Then as the con artist designed you blamed the bank for your loss. You thought you were leaving 'God'. You weren't actually in the Christian faith at all, putting your faith into proofs. This was not at all Christian. The same goes for a lot of other people...lots and lots. There is a huge industry out there selling proofs, and there are plenty of buyers.I can' seem to find answers for these questions that constantly pop into my mind. I lost my Christian faith because of the complete lack of evidence for Jesus outside the Bible.
Why didn't God leave behind a huge trove of secular evidence for Jesus having lived on earth, dying on the cross and all the supernatural events accompanying the crucifixion like dead bodies rising from the grave and walking around Jerusalem? If God really wanted us all to believe Jesus is His son ...
Since your quotes are so scarc, at this time, it is an opinion. Just making a declaration and then pretend that is true doesn't make it soSince we are not talking about my personal opinion, but the professional, scholarly findings of the community of New Testament scholars, what you are really doing is pretending it is my opinion so as to dishonestly ignore the academic consensus of mostly Christian historians. It's not that you do not have a need to answer, but that you have no answer.
I support and will fight for your right to have a personal opinion.
Since that is all I find here, there is no need to answer.
First, take the mote out of your own eyes, @KenS. You do not provide support for your claims.Since your quotes are so scarc, at this time, it is an opinion. Just making a declaration and then pretend that is true doesn't make it so
In defence of @Jayhawker Soule , he is probably only asking you to believe in the historical Jesus as opposed to the dogmatic Jesus.So what you have is you asking us to believe Jesus is doing these fabulous miracles, then causing all these dead bodies to come out of their graves like the Walking Dead AMC tv show and walking into Jerusalem, and dozens, maybe hundreds of people seeing them and getting the bejezuz scared out of them. But nobody writes any of this down. Then there is 65 years of absolute silence in the historic record before Josephus MAYBE writes down something about a Jesus that is pure hearsay and of no historic significance for proving Jesus was actually the son of God.
Brick, I honestly don't know what you're saying here. Something about me falling for a con or something. I'm basically saying one thing: the Christian community has been lying to people for centuries telling them there is more evidence for Jesus than there is for Julius Caesar. This is a bald faced lie on its face. It's plainly evident there is much more evidence for Caesar--there's is absolutely none for Jesus when you put the gospels aside. The gospels were anonymous, we don't know who wrote them (could have been little green men from Mars for all we know); they were written up to a century and maybe more after Jesus crucifixion. We have zero evidence for the apostles. Christians are always saying the apostles died martyrdom for their faith. How do we know? There aren't any accounts in secular history or even in the Bible for 10 of them.I don't know if you're still participating in the thread (since page 7 is kind of long in my opinion), but in addition to my other answer I have another. Evidence based faith is (my opinion) not Christian. In other words I think what you actually left was idolatry and a con rather than faith. The lack of evidence that you cite supports what I am saying here. None of the ancient material is designed in such a way that it can fool anybody by itself. There are endless clues directly in the Christian and Jewish texts that these are not to be read literally, and there are caveats, and there are signs of edits, and there are previous works upon which these are based. Those who manufactured evidence to fool you were most to blame, but you fell for it. It was your own error which allowed for that for a time, and it was to your shame, not that it was your plan or intent. Cons are everywhere, and they seize upon whatever materials they can find to make promises they can't keep. I think you fell for the con. Then as the con artist designed you blamed the bank for your loss. You thought you were leaving 'God'. You weren't actually in the Christian faith at all, putting your faith into proofs. This was not at all Christian. The same goes for a lot of other people...lots and lots. There is a huge industry out there selling proofs, and there are plenty of buyers.