Why Didn't God Leave Huge Quantities of Secular Evidence For Jesus?

[SeekingAllTruth]

It solves your conundrum though, does it not?

Well, yeah, it does. But then saying, "Just give up belief in Jesus and pursue your own agenda" solves my conundrum too.

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

Paul knew Peter and the Apostles. Plus, seeing a light that blinded him as he heard the voice of Jesus isn't a "vision". Even those around him heard things.

Is it a contradiction that Paul's companions both “heard a voice” (Acts 9:7) and “did not hear the voice” (Acts 22:9)?

 

[Eddi]

Well, look, Eddi--what you call a fact and what I call a fact may be two entirely different things. IF you say "It's a fact Jesus rose from the dead" that's not really a fact, is it?

It can be assumed to be a fact within a certain belief system

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

Why would I put aside accounts that were recorded? Which scholars are you quoting? The ones I read say it was history. As a matter of fact, Acts is so full of verified statements, people, places, traveling times, historical names et al it can only be historical and not declarations of faith.

Tombs have been around way before the time period. And they still are discovering them.

The number could have been rounded off... at some point after 100, why would exact numbers be that important?

Besides it being recorded? They still happen.

What do you mean, "....were recorded"? Who recorded them, the apostles or Greek scholars living almost a hundred years after Jesus? And where are the originals? Did you know the first complete copy of the Bible that we have is 400 years after Jesus, the Codex Sinaiticus? In between were thousands of copies of copies of copies of copies of copies of copies of the first writings. How many times did the scribes change a verse here and tweak a verse there in order to conform it with his biases? Trust me, you don't have the original words of Jesus. You have someone's interpretation of them.

 

[stvdv]

Yes, but isn't it God's job to show us the path and make sure we stay on it? I mean who's the parent here, God or his child?????????

Below is my opinion/view/experience.

From Hindu POV you get as many chances/lifes as needed to reach the goal. In the West patience is not easy. Then there is Free choice for humans. So, I don't see the problem you see. And the Saints/Wise give instructions to get there and how to hear His Voice etc. What more you need? There is one thing needed ... work hard, spiritually speaking. IF you want to pass worldly exams, you need do the work, and the same, even more so, is true for the spiritual life. All accept the fact "work hard to get university degree". But when it comes to "spiritual exam", they want God to just give it to them. I never understood this attitude.

When we get onto the wrong path we don't hear, "Boo!" from God

Takes practice again, to hear God calling

He's totally silent--totally absent from the scene

That is your experience. God is very much present in my life. And definitely NOT silent nor absent from the scene. Sometimes too present.

 

[stvdv]

Christians like to say "He tells us what to do in His word, the Bible" but come on, folks

Humans were given: Common Sense, Discrimination Power, Memory Power + Introspection, Concentration, Contemplation, Meditation.
Together with inspiration from Scriptures that does the trick for me. And if Bible does not work for you, there are plenty other Scriptures

That 3,000 year old musty relic is so out of touch with today's modern world it's not even funny

Discrimination and Common Sense takes care of that for me. I only need a few verses to know what I need to know, I can skip the rest.

I mean it says we must stone to death homosexuals, blasphemers and even people who work on Sundays and who disobey their parents

I just use Common Sense, I just skip such verses

 

[stvdv]

Ridiculous! If God is going to be AWOL in people's lives what good is He?

You speak for yourself. This does not apply to me

Might as well just write Him off and go about your life doing what you know is best for you

Seems to me, that this is what you already have done, so I am not surprised that you have no connection with God. And that is no problem. I believe that God can be found inside. Once found inside you see him everywhere, also in the Bible or other Scriptures (that is my experience)

You're certainly not going to get any advice or guidance from God.

False. I get advice and guidance from God. You should not speak for me, just speak for yourself

All the above is my own experience

 

[firedragon]

I can' seem to find answers for these questions that constantly pop into my mind. I lost my Christian faith because of the complete lack of evidence for Jesus outside the Bible.

So are you a mythicist?

 

[danieldemol]

Yes! We shouldn't take eye witnesses as fact. Got it!

I doubt the scribes in question were an eyewitness to the resurrected physical body of Jesus, in fact 1 Corinthians 15:3 seems to suggest Paul is just passing on what he heard,

'For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance'

In other words Paul was not amongst the 500 which makes it the tall claims of one scribe and not 500 witnesses as you appear to be trying to imply.

 

[Kenny]

Is it a contradiction that Paul's companions both “heard a voice” (Acts 9:7) and “did not hear the voice” (Acts 22:9)?

Not at all... not different than 6 people viewing the same accident will have 6 different stories but a common thread... the thread being "it wasn't a vision and something supernatural happened".

Paul, however, heard the voice

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I can' seem to find answers for these questions that constantly pop into my mind. I lost my Christian faith because of the complete lack of evidence for Jesus outside the Bible.

The evidence is spiritual, based on material events.

Christ said it is the Spirit that gives Life and the Flesh amounts to nothing.

God only wants our hearts. To be one people on one planet under One God.

Both the Quran and the Baha'i Writings confirm Jesus as the Christ.

Regards Tony

 

[ppp]

For Jesus...and the 12 apostles...and Paul....and Mark for starts.

Not at all... not different than 6 people viewing the same accident will have 6 different stories but a common thread... the thread being "it wasn't a vision and something supernatural happened".

Paul, however, heard the voice

A lot of people hear voices. Even people without mental health issues.

 

[Kenny]

What do you mean, "....were recorded"? Who recorded them, the apostles or Greek scholars living almost a hundred years after Jesus?

Matthew, Luke, John, Mark, James, Jude et al. They recorded it.

And where are the originals?

Where is the original Shakespeare? Where is the original Iliad by Homer? Do we still ascribe their writing from them?

The copies and fragments we have are between 60 and 110 AD. We know that they didn't start writing them until 40 AD and maybe even 50 AD - close enough.

There are over 5,800 complete or fragmented Greek manuscripts catalogued, 10,000 Latin manuscripts and 9,300 manuscripts in various other ancient languages including Syriac, Slavic, Gothic, Ethiopic, Coptic and Armenian.

If they weren't from the original, there would be humongous differences in the later years and in the different languages. But there isn't. Much more and much earlier than Shakespeare.

Did you know the first complete copy of the Bible that we have is 400 years after Jesus, the Codex Sinaiticus?

Does when they compiled them matter?

In between were thousands of copies of copies of copies of copies of copies of copies of the first writings. How many times did the scribes change a verse here and tweak a verse there in order to conform it with his biases? Trust me, you don't have the original words of Jesus. You have someone's interpretation of them.

As I noted before, very little difference. I'm sure you can find some... but none that make the difference.

So.. we are pretty sure of what Jesus said.

 

[Kenny]

I doubt the scribes in question were an eyewitness to the resurrected physical body of Jesus, in fact 1 Corinthians 15:3 seems to suggest Paul is just passing on what he heard,

'For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance'

In other words Paul was not amongst the 500 which makes it the tall claims of one scribe and not 500 witnesses as you appear to be trying to imply.

No... John was there, Peter was there. Matthew was there. Paul categorically said Jesus resurrected and even persecuted the church for what he thought was heresy. Obviously when Peter made his first sermon where 3,000 believed, no one said "I DON'T BELIEVE HE WAS RAISED FROM THE DEAD AND HIS BODY IS IN THE TOMB AS EVIDENCE".

No... all 3,000 said, "OMG, what are we going to do now?" (paraphrased)

 

[Kenny]

A lot of people hear voices. Even people without mental health issues.

But the fallacy is that just because people with mental issues hear voices means that when someone hears a voice, it isn't real. Who knows? Maybe they are listening to demons?

But when I hear my wife's voice... I KNOW she is talking.

 

[ppp]

Where is the original Shakespeare? Where is the original Iliad by Homer? Do we still ascribe their writing from them?

If you had paid attention in school, you would remember that Homer is just the name ascribed to the author of those works. No one knows anything about him, her or them. And there is no small amount of controversy as to whether or not Shakespeare wrote those plays.

But truly, for the works ascribed tp Homer, Shakespeare, and Socrates...it doesn't matter if they wrote them

 

[Kenny]

If you had paid attention in school, you would remember that Homer is just the name ascribed to the author of those works. No one knows anything about him, her or them. And there is no small amount of controversy as to whether or not Shakespeare wrote those plays.

But truly, for the works ascribed tp Homer, Shakespeare, and Socrates...it doesn't matter if they wrote them

Goal post movement here IMO.

And if it didn't matter... why do they teach that Shakespeare wrote his plays?

 

[ppp]

But the fallacy is that just because people with mental issues hear voices means that when someone hears a voice, it isn't real. When I hear my wife's voice... I KNOW she is talking.

How do you know that when you hear your wife's voice that your wife is talking?

 

[Kenny]

How do you know that when you hear your wife's voice that your wife is talking?

Because of the consequences when I don't answer the voice.

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

Why would I put aside accounts that were recorded? Which scholars are you quoting? The ones I read say it was history. As a matter of fact, Acts is so full of verified statements, people, places, traveling times, historical names et al it can only be historical and not declarations of faith.

Tombs have been around way before the time period. And they still are discovering them.

The number could have been rounded off... at some point after 100, why would exact numbers be that important?

Besides it being recorded? They still happen.

Ken, you're spreading so much disinformation it's getting really quite upsetting. Nothing--I mean absolutely NOTHING was recorded by anyone having anything to do with Jesus or the apostles in the first 70 years of the 1st Century. Scholars are being very kind when they date the gospels to between 70 and 95 CE. In truth the first scrap of manuscript from the gospels doesn't show up until between 125 and 175 with Ryland P52 which is a small fragment of manuscript from John's gospel, although scholars are now dating to about 200 CE. It looks like this and is about the size of a credit card:

This is the first original anything we have from the gospels, so how do we know by evidence WHEN these gospels appeared? They could have appeared as late as 125-150 CE and there's no way to verify factually when they were written because nothing survives earlier than 200 CE, fully 170 years after Christ.

There's so much more to address in your post but I want you to just dwell on that bit of FACTUAL information for awhile.