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Featured Why Didn't God Leave Huge Quantities of Secular Evidence For Jesus?

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by SeekingAllTruth, Dec 25, 2020.

  1. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    As a self-proclaimed authority on what is significant you may wish to consider the fact that I'm Jewish and have nowhere suggested that Jesus "was actually the son of God" or anything close. :D
     
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  2. SeekingAllTruth

    SeekingAllTruth Well-Known Member

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    I realize that. Being Jewish you wouldn't see Jesus as anything other than a prophet like the Moslems. I probably didn't state my position clearly. My position is that when you look at the historic record (the Bible doesn't count as a historic record) you don't see any evidence for a Jesus Christ or the 12 apostles. I think it's possible a prototype for Jesus probably lived, perhaps dozens that all got amalgamated into a single avatar by the end of the 1st century. So if we haven't a single piece of authentic writing outside the Bible that even mentions him then why should people devote their lives to serving him. The gospel accounts of the birth and resurrection are all so contradictory it'd be madness to take them as truthful. Certainly if God were Jesus' father he'd have made certain that the evidence was consistent and so overwhelming that we'd have no way to rationally deny he was the son of God. But just the opposite happened. So God obviously couldn't give a tinker's dam about whether people believed in Jesus. Even today with churches shutting down by the thousands because of Coronavirus and bad finances it's obvious God couldn't care less whether Christianity completely disappeared or not. He's oblivious to their plight. Would you agree with that much?
     
  3. SeekingAllTruth

    SeekingAllTruth Well-Known Member

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    Wasn't Paul wrong about Jesus returning in his lifetime? How could Paul be wrong if he was getting guidance directly from God? Even Jesus said he'd return in the lifetimes of his apostles. He never did. Jesus was wrong too. How could the son of God be wrong?

    “Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.”

    Matthew 16:28
     
  4. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    I doubt it, not even close, and almost certainly.

    My position is that you have an impoverished understanding of what constitutes evidence (as opposed to proof).

    Ahh - it's "possible" that it's "probable." Great. We agree (sort of).

    The Josephus reference in Book 20 Chapter 9 is widely considered authentic, and you've yet to demonstrate that your haughty dismissal is anything other than zealous obstinance.

    I don't know. Why should you ridicule them for doing so?
     
  5. cOLTER

    cOLTER Well-Known Member

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    The Kingdom taught by Jesus was a spiritual fellowship of believers. Its been here since he established it 2000 years ago.

    “The kingdom of God is within you” (Luke 17:21, KJV)?

    v20 When asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, “The kingdom of God will not come with observable signs. 21Nor will people say, ‘Look, here it is,’ or ‘There it is.’ For you see, the kingdom of God is in your midst.”

    36Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world; if it were, My servants would fight to prevent My arrest by the Jews. But now My kingdom is not of this realm.”



    When Jesus taught about the coming into his spiritual kingdom he was talking about the spirit of truth. Jesus is now present in spirit with us and has been so since the day of Pentecost.
     
  6. SeekingAllTruth

    SeekingAllTruth Well-Known Member

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    Yes, this 'spiritual return" thing has been the default position of the church for the last 2000 since Jesus physically failed to return as his followers expected him to. Now it IS possible this is what Jesus was referring to when he said he would return, but that is beside the point. The point is that his followers believed his return would be physical, Paul included. That's why we have Paul writing in Thessolonians

    16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:


    17 Then
    we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


    Now I don't care how much to try to twist this into a spiritual return, cOLTER, Paul is obviously talking about a physical return of Jesus to the earth to raise the dead and then catch up the living with them into the air. It is unmistakable. And it never happened. And if Paul was communicating directly with God and God told him, "No, my son Jesus was wrong. His return will be physical" you have a problem somewhere along the chain of command with someone being wrong--either Paul, or Jesus, or God. Pick your poison. Any way you choose it, Christianity fails because it got a message from God wrong. The Holy Spirit clearly goofed somewhere along the line with either Jesus or Paul. It's impossible to escape that.
     
  7. alypius

    alypius Member

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    Are ancient texts the only acceptable form of evidence for Jesus?
     
  8. cOLTER

    cOLTER Well-Known Member

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    Still a simple non issue, Jesus ALSO said he would physically return in the future. The church has been 100% correct in how they answer the false claim against Jesus.

    It must be remembered that Jesus said a number of things that weren’t immediately understood in light of how those pronouncements sounded.
     
  9. SeekingAllTruth

    SeekingAllTruth Well-Known Member

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    I can't get your point, cOLTER. Paul thought Jesus' return was physical. That's a fact. You can't escape that. Paul got it wrong. Doesn't matter whether Jesus' return is 2000 years from Paul or 2 million. Doesn't matter. Paul got it wrong. He was a false prophet.
     
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  10. SeekingAllTruth

    SeekingAllTruth Well-Known Member

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    What else have we got? Certainly not as biased a thing as the gospels. We don't know who wrote them nor do we know when. We don't have any authentic manuscripts of them earlier than 200 CE. Fine job God did if He really wanted us to believe Jesus was His son.
     
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  11. alypius

    alypius Member

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    Is textual evidence the only acceptable form of evidence (apart from whether such evidence exists)?
     
  12. cOLTER

    cOLTER Well-Known Member

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    Oh I see, yes, that’s correct. And it wasn’t just Paul, the general sense among his followers seemed to be that Jesus’ literal return was eminent.

    Matthew 24:36

    36 “But concerning that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only.
     
    #152 cOLTER, Dec 29, 2020
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2020
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  13. cOLTER

    cOLTER Well-Known Member

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    Jesus and Judaism in the first century were like Communist China and truth tellers from Wuhan! After his death believers were persecuted, they met in secret. When Jerusalem fell they were scattered. Any manuscripts about Jesus would have been contraband. And the Jews weren't going to write glowing reviews about Jesus! So what we have in the gospels is predictable.
     
  14. SeekingAllTruth

    SeekingAllTruth Well-Known Member

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    The earliest Christians were Gnostic Jews. cOLTER, you may be engaging in confirmation bias. If you are looking to strengthen your faith by talking here I'm happy to have a conversation, but if you really want to get at the truth you have to be willing to step into the shoes of a skeptic and look at all you've been taught from the outside in, not the inside out. That's what I did. I was willing to put my faith on pause and investigate with an open mind. When I found the nefarious truth about how Jesus was shaped and reshaped and reshaped again from a prophet, to a semi-deified figure to a fully deified figure almost identical to Dionysius, Romulus and Hercules and Zalmoxis I couldn't believe in him anymore. What the church has taught you are mostly lies and exaggerations. Examples:
    1) the gospels are authentic written by eyewitnesses. LIE. They are not authentic nor do they agree in pertinent details. The resurrection accounts all contradict each other. Which is the truthful one, if indeed any of the accounts are truthful and accurate?
    2) there is more evidence for Jesus than there is for Caesar. LIE. We have vast more amounts of evidence Caesar than we do Jesus, for whom we have absolutely NO evidence he was a real person outside the biased faith testaments called the gospels.
    3) The apostles were willing to suffer and die for their faith. GROSS EXAGGERATION. How do we know that? The apostles, even Peter and Paul are not mentioned in a single secular historic document so how do historians know what happened to them or if they were even real?

    You see, cOLTER, this is what you have to do--reexamine everything you've been taught by your pastors and church scholars. They are desperate. They have a financial interest in keeping Christianity alive because otherwise they will be out of jobs. They have families to support and if Christians keep dropping out of the faith they will lose their base of support and their churches will close their doors for lack of funds. This is literally life and death for thousands of pastors who have devoted their lives to serving Jesus, having gone to Bible colleges and not having any other skills to earn a living other than preaching in a pulpit. It may be that Jesus all along was just a figurehead propped up by the church over the centuries to keep Christianity alive. Who knows?
     
    #154 SeekingAllTruth, Dec 29, 2020
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2020
  15. cOLTER

    cOLTER Well-Known Member

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    You assume a lot. I was born again 35 years ago. I'm well aware that the books of the Bible are as imperfect as we should expect them to be. The rewritten and redacted OT is vastly exaggerated and reflects a God created largely in the image of the people who wrote the OT scripture. The NT isn't perfect either but its all we have. I've never had a problem with Jesus the man or God as a Loving Father. I have had great difficulty with other things attached to Christianity.
     
  16. SeekingAllTruth

    SeekingAllTruth Well-Known Member

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    But isn't that what we would demand of a perfect God--a PERFECT record chronicling His Perfect Son which would give us no doubt he died and rose? I've made these points elsewhere but they bear repeating: our accepting Jesus shouldn't have to depend on our free will action. The responsibility should be God's to see we are saved from hell. And God doesn't give you a free will choice. He puts a gun to your head and says, "Sure, you can refuse my gift but then I'm going to burn you in hell forever because my justice demands payment for your sins." cOLTER, does it make sense that God is a slave to His own will. He wants to forgive you but His sense of justice will not allow Him to. So with tears in His eyes He sends you to hell to burn for eternity. God is God. He's omnipotent. He shouldn't need payment in the form of us having to believe in Jesus in order to forgive someone.Doesn't that sound a tad suspicious? "Believe in My son or I will send you to hell." He should just be able to say "You're forgiven" just like He tells us to forgive without payment. So what's the deal--He can demand a ransom payment for forgiveness but we can't?

    The church is trying to cram a square peg into a round hole. Our job is not to try to figure out why none of it makes sense; The church leaders want us to just blindly accept all this on faith and not ask any questions. That's how Christianity has managed to survive for so many centuries.

    But the Internet allows people to investigate how the doctrine of salvation came about. What you will find if you search for the truth of how the early Christian church developed is that belief in Jesus became a central tenant of the faith. Pre-1600 the Church could torture you like in the Spanish Inquisition with the most awful forms of torture imaginable, like jamming a steel rod up your anus until it came out the other end if you didn't confess Jesus was your Lord and savior. Over the centuries 7 theories of atonement came into existence:

    #1 The Moral Influence Theory
    #2 The Ransom Theory
    #3 Christus Victor Theory
    #4 The Satisfaction Theory (St. Anselm)
    #5 The Penal Substitutionary Theory
    #6 The Governmental Theory
    #7 The Scapegoat Theory


    Does God really need 7 different competing ways for us to accept Jesus? Or was this whole doctrine of needing Jesus in order for God to be able to forgive your sins and escape fiery hell just a lot of propaganda in order to increase the growing church's wealth and power? Look at how wealthy such nonsense can make a clever televangelist

    1. Kenneth Copeland

    Net Worth $760 Million

    Top 15 Richest and most Successful Pastors In the World (We promise that #1 will shock you) - ETInside
     
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  17. rational experiences

    rational experiences Well-Known Member

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    Fact. Jesus a human baby was born.

    You all discuss just the adult scientific human phenomena preaching. False preaching. Even says so.

    O maths human thoughts design by man brothers human.

    The lie.

    Babies mutated exodus DNA. Genesis.

    From Moses mutation nuclear event returned healed.

    Discussing thinking is discussing thinking about topics.

    Why topics owned separated books.

    Attack came again. Second time male life sacrificed.

    Baha'i teachings. Males kept the star records earth attack. Observed.

    Then correlation re written claiming all proof real. No argument.
     
  18. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    Is this some Urantia inspired antisemitic vitriol or do you have actual evidence?
     
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  19. SeekingAllTruth

    SeekingAllTruth Well-Known Member

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    It's not a fact unless there is a birth certificate. When you can show scholars Jesus birth in the record books then it might become a fact depending on whether we have located the right Jesus amongst the hundreds born in that year.
     
  20. cOLTER

    cOLTER Well-Known Member

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    We think alike.
    * Hell is a fiction.
    * Jesus wasn’t a volunteer sacrifice.

    The Original Gospel changed after Jesus left. Traces of the Original Gospel can be found in the records of Jesus's public teachings prior to his apprehension on behalf of the Jewish authorities.



    .
     
    #160 cOLTER, Dec 29, 2020
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2020
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