Why Didn't God Leave Huge Quantities of Secular Evidence For Jesus?

[danieldemol]

No... John was there, Peter was there. Matthew was there

Neither of them wrote what they saw so far as I know.

As far as the empty tomb goes, as I explained earlier

An empty tomb possibly just means Jesus was buried somewhere else or His body removed later.

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

Thank you. It is an interesting list, a model of selection bias turned comical. I think it near inconceivable that you are actually familiar with their works, and I would encourage anyone interested to submit each name to Wikipedia come to their own conclusions.


All?

Pliny the Younger (61 CE -- c. 113 CE)
Dio Chrysostom (c, 40 CE -- c. 115 CE)
Quintus Curtius Rufus (unknown)​

I guess, to be fair, we should give you the latter. On the other hand, according to Wikipedia:

Quintus Curtius Rufus (/ˈkwɪntəs ˈkɜːrʃiəs ˈruːfəs/) was a Roman historian, probably of the 1st century, author of his only known and only surviving work, Historiae Alexandri Magni, "Histories of Alexander the Great", or more fully Historiarum Alexandri Magni Macedonis Libri Qui Supersunt, ...​

Alexander the Great reigned 335 -- 323 BCE and the Quintus Curtius Rufus Historiae is unlikely to have a great deal to say about Jesus. That you would cherry-pick this historian and dismiss Josephus pretty much tells us everything we need to know.

BTW, the historicity of Jesus has been discussed ad nauseam here at RF. The search function is your friend.

All right, you tell me which historian calls Jesus by name--and please don't haul out that old canard Josephus. His works have been so doctored with edits and interpolations by Eusebius that we can't trust a thing he writes. Nothing from Josephus survives until after Eusebius gets his greasy fingers on it. But go ahead. You tell me which secular historian mentions Jesus in the 1st, even 2nd Century CE. Go ahead.

 

[ppp]

Goal post movement here IMO.

IMO, you are making random accusations of "fallacies" that you have heard in order to avoid a thoughtful and considered reply.

And if it didn't matter... why do they teach that Shakespeare wrote his plays?

Because it's the most convenient and apparently appropriate label.

The reason that you resist the fact that the Gospels were written by random people is because the foundations of your religious doctrine would be undermined.

It it turns out that Bacon, Marlowe or deVere wrote Shakespeare's plays, it won't change anything except for history texts. The quality and enjoyability of the plays will be unchanged. I will still love watching Richard III.

 

[ppp]

Because of the consequences when I don't answer the voice.

What consequences?

 

[stvdv]

Is it a contradiction that Paul's companions both “heard a voice” (Acts 9:7) and “did not hear the voice” (Acts 22:9)?

IMO: No contradiction. I checked ca. 29 Bibles, ca. 12 Bibles translate it with "did not understand the voice", the others translate with "did not hear"

My guess is that the correct translation might be "did not understand the voice", so that means they did hear in both verses (assuming it was an "outer" voice)

But anyway, I don't care whether or not these people heard or did not hear a voice. For me it's much more interesting to hear the voice myself. The Bible inspires

When inspired by the Bible the "hard work" starts, or call it "heart work".
Debating semantics won't get me anywhere, it just gives confusion. Meditation gives real answers

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

Those names seems to be Roman names, I think they were not too keen to write about Jesus ... I mean, Jesus got crucified

So, to me, that seems not a reason to make assumptions about Jesus; the Emperor might not have liked Jesus too much

Some Emperors rather have people see them as God than having others claim that they are God, it seems

Even Emperor Trump shows signs of this on occasion, I have witnessed

The problem is outside of Phil of Alexandria Israel has no historians that have survived. It's tragic but it's the truth: absence of evidence IS evidence of absence. Absence of evidence for Jesus in the 1st century is evidence he either wasn't real or he was built up from a lowly nothing prophet among hundreds who didn't distinguish themselves except by getting crucified by Rome. Scholars don't go by what they CAN'T read, only by what they can. If we know that details of Jesus' life weren't written down until 50-150 years after Christ how can we trust anything written in the gospels regarding Jesus? How do we know what's factual and what's not? How do we know it wasn't all cut out of whole cloth from earlier dying rising man gods like Dionysius, Romulus, Hercules and Horus?

 

[stvdv]

It's tragic but it's the truth: absence of evidence IS evidence of absence

I agree to disagree on this one.

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

Humans were given: Common Sense, Discrimination Power, Memory Power + Introspection, Concentration, Contemplation, Meditation.
Together with inspiration from Scriptures that does the trick for me. And if Bible does not work for you, there are plenty other Scriptures


Discrimination and Common Sense takes care of that for me. I only need a few verses to know what I need to know, I can skip the rest.


I just use Common Sense, I just skip such verses

Well, glad to hear that! I sometimes pick and choose things out of the OT that are just common sense. BTW, one of my favorite verses out of the OT

Ezekiel 23:20
She remembered her lover with the penis like a donkey and a flood of semen like a horse.

I'd like to see a pastor do a sermon for his congregation full of children based on THAT one!

 

[Audie]

I agree to disagree on this one.

So there might really be a herd of water buffalo in your house?

 

[stvdv]

Well, glad to hear that! I sometimes pick and choose things out of the OT that are just common sense. BTW, one of my favorite verses out of the OT

Ezekiel 23:20
She remembered her lover with the penis like a donkey and a flood of semen like a horse.

I'd like to see a pastor do a sermon for his congregation full of children based on THAT one!

I don't see any spiritual benefit I can learn from this verse, hence I am not interested in such verse

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

You speak for yourself. This does not apply to me


Seems to me, that this is what you already have done, so I am not surprised that you have no connection with God. And that is no problem. I believe that God can be found inside. Once found inside you see him everywhere, also in the Bible or other Scriptures (that is my experience)


False. I get advice and guidance from God. You should not speak for me, just speak for yourself

All the above is my own experience

stdv, if you get something worthwhile out of the Bible, I'm happy for you. I always say, "Use anything you have to to get through this miserable existence. I don't care if it's sex or drugs or rock 'n roll or booze or the Bible. Use whatever you have to to make your life easier." You appear to be making your life easier with the Bible. Good for you!

 

[Starlight]

Because God does not care if you are christian or not

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

I don't see any spiritual benefit I can learn from this verse, hence I am not interested in such verse

But it's good for a laugh, isn't it? How'bout this one:

Deuteronomy 25:11-12
"If two men are fighting and the wife of one of them comes to rescue her husband from his assailant, and she reaches out and grabs him by his private equipment, you shall cut off her hand. Show her no pity."

Women, what do you of that one!

 

[stvdv]

stdv, if you get something worthwhile out of the Bible, I'm happy for you. I always say, "Use anything you have to to get through this miserable existence. I don't care if it's sex or drugs or rock 'n roll or booze or the Bible. Use whatever you have to to make your life easier." You appear to be making your life easier with the Bible. Good for you!

Thank you.

"Get through this miserable existence" + "make your life easier".
Those are indeed challenges we all face it seems (also Buddha talked about this)
And indeed all people find their own unique way of dealing with these challenges

Personally for me it is not the Bible which makes my life easier ... I prefer Hindu Scriptures for my inspiration. But meditation even tops that.

 

[stvdv]

But it's good for a laugh, isn't it? How'bout this one:

Deuteronomy 25:11-12
"If two men are fighting and the wife of one of them comes to rescue her husband from his assailant, and she reaches out and grabs him by his private equipment, you shall cut off her hand. Show her no pity."

Women, what do you of that one!

I think that was an important verse in those years. Even nowadays some women resort to such tricks. Luckily for them "no hand cutting today"

 

[Audie]

But it's good for a laugh, isn't it? How'bout this one:

Deuteronomy 25:11-12
"If two men are fighting and the wife of one of them comes to rescue her husband from his assailant, and she reaches out and grabs him by his private equipment, you shall cut off her hand. Show her no pity."

Women, what do you of that one!

Pity would be to cut between the bones.
They must mean, " cut through any bones'
and , maybe, " use a saw ".

My sig other is not a man, so this won't affect me.

 

[McBell]

Because God does not care if you are christian or not

Then why do so many Christians care?

 

[stvdv]

So there might really be a herd of water buffalo in your house?

Seems I interpret those words differently

 

[stvdv]

Then why do so many Christians care?

They had a different Teacher/Priest

 

[Audie]

Seems I interpret those words differently

just don't make that evidence of absence thing an invariant rule.