Why did the world reject the Messiah when He Did come?

[Trailblazer]

It is called holy because Christ will reign as King in the city some day.

People can believe that if they want to, but beliefs do not create reality. Jesus is never coming back, NOT EVER.
Jesus never promised to return and He said His Kingdom was not of this world...

John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

Jesus said that He had finished the work that God gave Him to do and He was no more in the world and He was going to the Father. This indicates that Jesus never planned to return (I am no more in the world) and there was no need to return since He finished the work God gave Him to do.

Then in the next chapter you have these verses:

John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

John 18:37 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.

These two verses completely negate that Jesus is the King of this world, or that Jesus will ever come to this world to rule it, and they fit perfectly together with John 17:4 and John 17:11. Jesus came into this world to (1) glorify God (glorified thee on the earth) and (2) that I should bear witness unto the truth. He did that so there is no more reason for Jesus to be IN this world again. That is why Jesus said “I am no more in the world.”

 

[Trailblazer]

It's a story about what Jesus said and did.

Yes, that is what it is, a story, and not one I am obliged to believe.

By the way, do you have a vendetta against traditional Christian beliefs?

No, I just do not believe them because they are in direct opposition to my beliefs.
I cannot believe what is contradictory to my own beliefs, I have to choose.

Must be tough, sitting on the fence for 49 years. It only took me two weeks to know that the Baha'i Faith was the truth, and I have never wavered once in 49 years.

 

[Terry Sampson]

is there any sound reason why Carmel is not also Zion?

Would 145 kilometers be reason enough?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Would 145 kilometers be reason enough?

View attachment 33419

Zion is the Mountain of the Lord, it's location changes. The quotes you omitted from your reply, tell a story about Zion.

It is where the Lord chooses it to be. The Bible also tells us of a New Jerusalem, Jerusalem means (Abode of Peace)

"The time foreordained unto the peoples and kindreds of the earth is now come. The promises of God, as recorded in the holy Scriptures, have all been fulfilled. Out of Zion hath gone forth the Law of God, and Jerusalem, and the hills and land thereof, are filled with the glory of His Revelation. Happy is the man that pondereth in his heart that which hath been revealed in the Books of God, the Help in Peril, the Self-Subsisting. Meditate upon this, O ye beloved of God, and let your ears be attentive unto His Word, so that ye may, by His grace and mercy, drink your fill from the crystal waters of constancy, and become as steadfast and immovable as the mountain in His Cause.... "

Bahá'í Reference Library - Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 12-14

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

The Bible also tells us

What does the Bible tell us? Baha'is tell us what the Bible tells us. Everything the Jews thought was right is wrong. First by the Christians, then by the Baha'is. Everything the Christians say is right is wrong. First by the Jews that stayed Jews. And now by the Baha'is. Baha'is make every religion into what they want it to be. The Bible can say anything and the Baha'is can switch it to mean something else. You say Jews missed their Messiah Jesus, but then you say that Christians misinterpreted the message that Jesus brought. So what were those Jews supposed to believe? Something you say is not true? There is no "progressive" revelation, just a destruction of all the beliefs of the prior religions. If the Baha'i Faith is true, there is virtually nothing true about the Bible. Good luck bringing all the people and all the religions together in peace.

 

[Trailblazer]

Given those passages, is there any sound reason why Carmel is not also Zion?

Regards Tony

Carmel is not Mt. Zion, but Carmel is Zion, which we can conclude because they are both mentioned in the same chapter..

Isaiah 35 King James Version (KJV)

35 The wilderness and the solitary place shall be glad for them; and the desert shall rejoice, and blossom as the rose.

2 It shall blossom abundantly, and rejoice even with joy and singing: the glory of Lebanon shall be given unto it, the excellency of Carmel and Sharon, they shall see the glory of the Lord, and the excellency of our God.

3 Strengthen ye the weak hands, and confirm the feeble knees.

4 Say to them that are of a fearful heart, Be strong, fear not: behold, your God will come with vengeance, even God with a recompence; he will come and save you.

5 Then the eyes of the blind shall be opened, and the ears of the deaf shall be unstopped.

6 Then shall the lame man leap as an hart, and the tongue of the dumb sing: for in the wilderness shall waters break out, and streams in the desert.

7 And the parched ground shall become a pool, and the thirsty land springs of water: in the habitation of dragons, where each lay, shall be grass with reeds and rushes.

8 And an highway shall be there, and a way, and it shall be called The way of holiness; the unclean shall not pass over it; but it shall be for those: the wayfaring men, though fools, shall not err therein.

9 No lion shall be there, nor any ravenous beast shall go up thereon, it shall not be found there; but the redeemed shall walk there:

10 And the ransomed of the Lord shall return, and come to Zion with songs and everlasting joy upon their heads: they shall obtain joy and gladness, and sorrow and sighing shall flee away.

 

[CG Didymus]

Would 145 kilometers be reason enough?

View attachment 33419

Am I right in saying that they have to move the Mt. of Olives also? Of course it is just the "symbolic" Mt. Zion and "symbolic" Jerusalem that they are moving to Haifa. So one more mountain couldn't be that hard.

 

[Trailblazer]

What does the Bible tell us? Baha'is tell us what the Bible tells us. Everything the Jews thought was right is wrong. First by the Christians, then by the Baha'is.

The Jews were wrong, because they missed recognizing Jesus as the Messiah, which He was.
THIS has nothing to do with the Baha'is, we just point it out.

Everything the Christians say is right is wrong. First by the Jews that stayed Jews. And now by the Baha'is.

No, everything Christians say is not wrong, according to the Baha'is.

The Bible can say anything and the Baha'is can switch it to mean something else.

The Bible does not SAY anything. It needs to be read and interpreted in order to ascertain the meaning.
Switching it to mean something else means someone had it right in the first place.
Who had it right? If the Jews had it right that means the Christians had it wrong and vice versa.

If the Baha'i Faith is true, there is virtually nothing true about the Bible.

Wrong. The Bible is true, but different religions and different believers within the same religion interpreted it differently. Baha'is simply had a different interpretation than Jews and Christians.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

What does the Bible tell us? Baha'is tell us what the Bible tells us. Everything the Jews thought was right is wrong. First by the Christians, then by the Baha'is. Everything the Christians say is right is wrong. First by the Jews that stayed Jews. And now by the Baha'is. Baha'is make every religion into what they want it to be. The Bible can say anything and the Baha'is can switch it to mean something else. You say Jews missed their Messiah Jesus, but then you say that Christians misinterpreted the message that Jesus brought. So what were those Jews supposed to believe? Something you say is not true? There is no "progressive" revelation, just a destruction of all the beliefs of the prior religions. If the Baha'i Faith is true, there is virtually nothing true about the Bible. Good luck bringing all the people and all the religions together in peace.

If that is the way you wish to see it and summarise all the data, then that is your choice.

I can only share with you what I have found.

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

Must be tough, sitting on the fence for 49 years. It only took me two weeks to know that the Baha'i Faith was the truth, and I have never wavered once in 49 years.

In the early 70's I believed everybody. I was so gullible back then. Now I don't trust anybody that says that they "know" the truth. What do you know? Have you lived out your religion? Have you followed all the commandments and rules of your religion? Have you given up everything to go pioneering to spread the "truth" about your religion? I know Baha'is who have. But, I also know Christians that have done the same. They too have not waivered. They too believe they have the truth. But what is your truth? Is it to bring people together? Is it to bring peace and harmony to the world? That's the Baha'i Faith I thought I knew back in the 70's. Was I wrong? Is it really just another religion that has to prove itself right at all costs. To put other people's beliefs down and tell them how wrong they are? Unfortunately, I think that is the reality of what the Baha'i Faith really is. Hopefully, I'm wrong.

 

[CG Didymus]

No, everything Christians say is not wrong, according to the Baha'is.

Ya could have fooled me. So it's just all the major doctrines of Christianity that aren't true?

Wrong. The Bible is true

The Baha'is believe the Bible is true? You are joking aren't you? This is the same book you say is fiction?

 

[Trailblazer]

Am I right in saying that they have to move the Mt. of Olives also? Of course it is just the "symbolic" Mt. Zion and "symbolic" Jerusalem that they are moving to Haifa. So one more mountain couldn't be that hard.

We do not have to move anything anywhere.
Nobody can change who Baha'u'llah was by misinterpreting the Bible and trying to make OT prophecies be about Jesus.
Let me know when you see Jesus coming down out of the clouds and I will change my mind.

 

[Trailblazer]

Ya could have fooled me. So it's just all the major doctrines of Christianity that aren't true?

The doctrines of Christianity have nothing to do with who Jesus really was. That is what Christianity is to me and to Christians who do not buy those doctrines.

The Baha'is believe the Bible is true? You are joking aren't you? This is the same book you say is fiction?

Just the resurrection story, but there are liberal Christians who do not believe that either, as I clearly pointed out.
It is much more fun to pick on Baha'is though.

 

[Terry Sampson]

Zion is the Mountain of the Lord, it's location changes. The quotes you omitted from your reply, tell a story about Zion. It is where the Lord chooses it to be. The Bible also tells us of a New Jerusalem, Jerusalem means (Abode of Peace)

You like Bible verses? See my attachment below, which lists EVERY instance of "Zion", "Carmel", and "Mount of Olives".

None of the verses changes the location of "Carmel by the Sea". Show me an instance which says that Mount Zion was ever OUTSIDE of modern-day Jerusalem or was ever identical with the Mount of Olives, much less Carmel by the Sea.

The map below shows the location of modern-day Mount Zion, the Mount of Olives on which Jesus sat and saw the Temple (and the Temple Mount), Bethphage (mentioned in some of the verses that mention the Mount of Olives).

 

[Terry Sampson]

Am I right in saying that they have to move the Mt. of Olives also?

Something has to move somewhere in order for two things to be in the same place.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

You like Bible verses? See my attachment below, which lists EVERY instance of "Zion", "Carmel", and "Mount of Olives".

None of the verses changes the location of "Carmel by the Sea". Show me an instance which says that Mount Zion was ever OUTSIDE of modern-day Jerusalem or was ever identical with the Mount of Olives, much less Carmel by the Sea.

The map below shows the location of modern-day Mount Zion, the Mount of Olives on which Jesus sat and saw the Temple (and the Temple Mount), Bethphage (mentioned in some of the verses that mention the Mount of Olives).


View attachment 33421

View attachment 33422

As the explanation about Zion have already been posted, I see it is time to let it go.

I am happy for you to see Zion in any way you choose to.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Am I right in saying that they have to move the Mt. of Olives also? Of course it is just the "symbolic" Mt. Zion and "symbolic" Jerusalem that they are moving to Haifa. So one more mountain couldn't be that hard.

An option is to consider thoughts such as these, (not a Baha'i source)

What is Zion? What is Mount Zion? What is the biblical meaning of Zion? | GotQuestions.org

What is the biblical significance of Zion? What is Zion? What is Mount Zion?

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

In the early 70's I believed everybody. I was so gullible back then. Now I don't trust anybody that says that they "know" the truth. What do you know? Have you lived out your religion? Have you followed all the commandments and rules of your religion? Have you given up everything to go pioneering to spread the "truth" about your religion? I know Baha'is who have. But, I also know Christians that have done the same. They too have not waivered. They too believe they have the truth. But what is your truth? Is it to bring people together? Is it to bring peace and harmony to the world? That's the Baha'i Faith I thought I knew back in the 70's. Was I wrong? Is it really just another religion that has to prove itself right at all costs. To put other people's beliefs down and tell them how wrong they are? Unfortunately, I think that is the reality of what the Baha'i Faith really is. Hopefully, I'm wrong.

As I told a man who just dropped out of the Baha'i Faith on another forum just because of other Baha'is, the Baha'i Faith has NOTHING to do with what the Baha'is do or don't do. I never signed a card saying I believe in the Baha'is, I signed a card saying I believe that Baha'u'llah was a Manifestation of God. On an intellectual level, I have no doubt who Baha'u'llah was, because there is so much evidence, but on an emotional level I wish there was no God. I would like to escape God but I can't because I know God exists. Do you know how that feels? Meanwhile, you are talking about the Bible and what it means and how Baha'is changed it and I could not care less, because I am in my own hell right now.

Given I have serious issues with God so I have no interest in being around other Baha'is who love God because I cannot say prayers and pretend I feel what I do not feel. I will work for the Cause of God on forums because I care about other people and want them to have the opportunity I do not have.

 

[Trailblazer]

An option is to consider thoughts such as these, (not a Baha'i source)

What is Zion? What is Mount Zion? What is the biblical meaning of Zion? | GotQuestions.org

What is the biblical significance of Zion? What is Zion? What is Mount Zion?

Regards Tony

The article says: "Mount Zion as a geographical area is currently the center of much dispute. The Bible is clear that, one day, Zion will be the sole possession of the Lord Jesus, and Zion—the nation and the city—will be restored."

No, the Bible is not clear on that. Jesus never promised to return to earth, not once, so Jesus cannot restore anything on earth.

John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

The article says: "Peter, quoting Isaiah 28:16, refers to Christ as the Cornerstone of Zion: “See, I lay a stone in Zion, a chosen and precious cornerstone, and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame” (1 Peter 2:6)"

That is true, Jesus laid the foundation, but Jesus never promised to build the house.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

The article says: "Mount Zion as a geographical area is currently the center of much dispute. The Bible is clear that, one day, Zion will be the sole possession of the Lord Jesus, and Zion—the nation and the city—will be restored."

No, the Bible is not clear on that. Jesus never promised to return to earth, not once, so Jesus cannot restore anything on earth.

The purpose of the articles was to show that there are more ways to determine and things to consider as to what is Zion in prophecy.

Peter tells us who Jesus is and that is Christ. Thus it is Christ that has fulfilled all that was promised as the Father.

I would say that Jesus will be seen, but not by any material eye and not in this life.

Regards Tony