Why despite Thousands hadithes, Mahdi is not in Quran?

[InvestigateTruth]

Honestly sis, the problem is you tend to get touchy on this subject and then you will eternally keep trying to make me a hypocrite by hook or crook, or/and say seriously nonsensical things like "escape".

1. You have said above that the verse 47:38 says "changing Arabs with another people". I dont know who told you that this verse says "Arabs" but it does not. You have not understood the Quran. Its "faala madhaaria majzoomun". It says "you". You have assumed that "You" means "Arabs".

Honestly since you are sometimes speaking so offensively and disrespectfully when you get a little agitated let me tell you directly that your scholarship on the Qur'an is beyond nothing. Please try to practice a tad bit of humility.

The Quran says "Zalikal Kithaaba la raiba fee hi hudhallil muttaqeen" which is "this/that book, with no doubt is for the righteous", does not say "Arabs".

2. You keep saying "tradition records" that this verse 47:38 is about the Mahdi. Thats just a vague statement. What is the tradition? Why do you believe it? What is the sanad and the mathn in this tradition you keep talking about?

3. You quoted the verse 17:71.

"The day We call every people by their record. Then, whoever are given their book by their right, they will read their book, and they will not be wronged in the least.

How in the world is that about the Mahdi? Explain clearly. Dont just keep saying "tradition says this". If you quote the tradition, you have to justify why you love that tradition so much. If not, its just confirmation bias. Cherry picking. And what is this tradition? Is it tafsir, ahadith, or what? When ever the word imam comes up you assume its Mahdi? Thats good for laymen who have no clue about the Quran but only are driven by agenda, and since you address me rather crudely, I will tell you directly. This is absolutely bad scholarship. Its so bad, its nonsensical. Its just like a Christian who is so in love with the idea of the trinity that they become KJV worshipers no matter what scholarship has taught them. They believe that the KJV is the absolute word of God purely because that's the only book that really helped their theology. Thats the height of confirmation bias. Alright sis, since you wish to discuss this matter, lets discuss. Go ahead and please bring your evidence.

Tell me. Do you know what Imam means?

You replied too fast.

I was still working on my reply.
But you didn't even quote the first verse I was talking about.

You are not focusing on this topic, rather, making it as if it is personal.

I think I leave it as that. I dont see you really interested in this. I am looking for a friendly and honest discussion here.

 

[firedragon]

You replied too fast.

I was still working on my reply.
But you didn't even quote the first verse I was talking about.

You are not focusing on this topic, rather, making it as if it is personal.

I think I leave it as that. I dont see you really interested in this. I am looking for a friendly and honest discussion here.

Why sis? Since you made such a big challenge, and said that "I am trying to escape", why can't you address those simple two points that I made?

No answer?

And now you want to say I am dishonest? Sis, you want a friendly discussion but you say that I am trying to "escape" and then I am dishonest, and trying your best to look for hypocrisy in me? Is that friendly and honest?

Address the two points that you had raised and I have responded to if you are being "honest". Rather than all the rhetoric, just address the points. If I have missed a verse you gave, be friendly and quote it again. You will not lose anything. If you want, let me cut and paste again.

1. You have said above that the verse 47:38 says "changing Arabs with another people". I dont know who told you that this verse says "Arabs" but it does not. You have not understood the Quran. Its "faala madhaaria majzoomun". It says "you". You have assumed that "You" means "Arabs".

Honestly since you are sometimes speaking so offensively and disrespectfully when you get a little agitated let me tell you directly that your scholarship on the Qur'an is beyond nothing. Please try to practice a tad bit of humility.

The Quran says "Zalikal Kithaaba la raiba fee hi hudhallil muttaqeen" which is "this/that book, with no doubt is for the righteous", does not say "Arabs".

2. You keep saying "tradition records" that this verse 47:38 is about the Mahdi. Thats just a vague statement. What is the tradition? Why do you believe it? What is the sanad and the mathn in this tradition you keep talking about?

3. You quoted the verse 17:71.

"The day We call every people by their record. Then, whoever are given their book by their right, they will read their book, and they will not be wronged in the least.

How in the world is that about the Mahdi? Explain clearly. Dont just keep saying "tradition says this". If you quote the tradition, you have to justify why you love that tradition so much. If not, its just confirmation bias. Cherry picking. And what is this tradition? Is it tafsir, ahadith, or what? When ever the word imam comes up you assume its Mahdi? Thats good for laymen who have no clue about the Quran but only are driven by agenda, and since you address me rather crudely, I will tell you directly. This is absolutely bad scholarship. Its so bad, its nonsensical. Its just like a Christian who is so in love with the idea of the trinity that they become KJV worshipers no matter what scholarship has taught them. They believe that the KJV is the absolute word of God purely because that's the only book that really helped their theology. Thats the height of confirmation bias. Alright sis, since you wish to discuss this matter, lets discuss. Go ahead and please bring your evidence.

Tell me. Do you know what Imam means?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Why sis? Since you made such a big challenge, and said that "I am trying to escape", why can't you address those simple two points that I made?

No answer?

And now you want to say I am dishonest? Sis, you want a friendly discussion but you say that I am trying to "escape" and then I am dishonest, and trying your best to look for hypocrisy in me? Is that friendly and honest?

Address the two points that you had raised and I have responded to if you are being "honest". Rather than all the rhetoric, just address the points. If I have missed a verse you gave, be friendly and quote it again. You will not lose anything. If you want, let me cut and paste again.

1. You have said above that the verse 47:38 says "changing Arabs with another people". I dont know who told you that this verse says "Arabs" but it does not. You have not understood the Quran. Its "faala madhaaria majzoomun". It says "you". You have assumed that "You" means "Arabs".

Honestly since you are sometimes speaking so offensively and disrespectfully when you get a little agitated let me tell you directly that your scholarship on the Qur'an is beyond nothing. Please try to practice a tad bit of humility.

The Quran says "Zalikal Kithaaba la raiba fee hi hudhallil muttaqeen" which is "this/that book, with no doubt is for the righteous", does not say "Arabs".

2. You keep saying "tradition records" that this verse 47:38 is about the Mahdi. Thats just a vague statement. What is the tradition? Why do you believe it? What is the sanad and the mathn in this tradition you keep talking about?

3. You quoted the verse 17:71.

"The day We call every people by their record. Then, whoever are given their book by their right, they will read their book, and they will not be wronged in the least.

How in the world is that about the Mahdi? Explain clearly. Dont just keep saying "tradition says this". If you quote the tradition, you have to justify why you love that tradition so much. If not, its just confirmation bias. Cherry picking. And what is this tradition? Is it tafsir, ahadith, or what? When ever the word imam comes up you assume its Mahdi? Thats good for laymen who have no clue about the Quran but only are driven by agenda, and since you address me rather crudely, I will tell you directly. This is absolutely bad scholarship. Its so bad, its nonsensical. Its just like a Christian who is so in love with the idea of the trinity that they become KJV worshipers no matter what scholarship has taught them. They believe that the KJV is the absolute word of God purely because that's the only book that really helped their theology. Thats the height of confirmation bias. Alright sis, since you wish to discuss this matter, lets discuss. Go ahead and please bring your evidence.

Tell me. Do you know what Imam means?

I am sorry if you feel I am trying to look for hypocrisy in you. It is not my intention. But I did try to show with your approach one cannot be consistent in beliefs. But i think in such cases, you shouldn't take it personal. You should rather just be able to defend and show your approach is logical.

Let's set that aside and focus on the topic though.

I added point 1. In my post, and I am interested to know your response to that also. We just need to see how many common points we have, so we can continue from that.


As regards to 47:38, here is the verse. I quote here:


"Here you are - those invited to spend in the cause of Allah - but among you are those who withhold [out of greed]. And whoever withholds only withholds [benefit] from himself; and Allah is the Free of need, while you are the needy. And if you turn away, He will replace you with another people; then they will not be the likes of you."

I was mentioning about the allusions at the last part of this verse.
Since you are interested in textual criticism, There are many things to understand in this last part.
But textual criticism, must also include a method to see what the Author means, by just looking at other verses that uses similar word or expression.
So, my question is, based on other verses, what does the Author mean by "replacing you". What does the author mean by "another people".
This is a place to start.

 

[firedragon]

I am sorry if you feel I am trying to look for hypocrisy in you. It is not my intention. But I did try to show with your approach one cannot be consistent in beliefs. But i think in such cases, you shouldn't take it personal. You should rather just be able to defend and show your approach is logical.

Let's set that aside and focus on the topic though.

I added point 1. In my post, and I am interested to know your response to that also. We just need to see how many common points we have, so we can continue from that.


As regards to 47:38, here is the verse. I quote here:


"Here you are - those invited to spend in the cause of Allah - but among you are those who withhold [out of greed]. And whoever withholds only withholds [benefit] from himself; and Allah is the Free of need, while you are the needy. And if you turn away, He will replace you with another people; then they will not be the likes of you."

I was mentioning about the allusions at the last part of this verse.
Since you are interested in textual criticism, There are many things to understand in this last part.
But textual criticism, must also include a method to see what the Author means, by just looking at other verses that uses similar word or expression.
So, my question is, based on other verses, what does the Author mean by "replacing you". What does the author mean by "another people".
This is a place to start.

But I responded to that. Twice. And you have not read it maybe. The same post you are responding to now. Please read. It was answered.

Sorry sis. This has nothing to do with "Textual Criticism". This is simple language. Textual Criticism is a completely different field altogether.

Alright. Another people. I have already answered you. The Quran says in itself that it is addressed to the Muttaqoon. We are called the Muminoon, muttaqoon, aslam. It is the reader, the adherent, the believer, that will be replaced by another people if they as we say in arabic "Bukhl" which means you pretend to be munificent but is so stingy and are not charitable in reality. This word is used to those who pretend to pull the wallet and its stuck like glue in your pocket and someone else pays instead while you keep pretending. Thus, this verse is saying that if you call yourself any of these, and you are that stingy, then you will be replaced by another people.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

But I responded to that. Twice. And you have not read it maybe. The same post you are responding to now. Please read. It was answered.

Sorry sis. This has nothing to do with "Textual Criticism". This is simple language. Textual Criticism is a completely different field altogether.

Alright. Another people. I have already answered you. The Quran says in itself that it is addressed to the Muttaqoon. We are called the Muminoon, muttaqoon, aslam. It is the reader, the adherent, the believer, that will be replaced by another people if they as we say in arabic "Bukhl" which means you pretend to be munificent but is so stingy and are not charitable in reality. This word is used to those who pretend to pull the wallet and its stuck like glue in your pocket and someone else pays instead while you keep pretending. Thus, this verse is saying that if you call yourself any of these, and you are that stingy, then you will be replaced by another people.

Ok, another people means what?
How does Allah, according to Auther of Quran replaces one people with another people?
Are there any examples in the Quran when Allah replaced one people with another people? When was it? Why was it? And how exactly did Allah replace one people with another people?

What is the Word used in this verse for another people? And in terms of textual criticism what does that word mean?
You know, in Quran there are at least three words which is translated as People.

الناس
قوم
امه

Though in English each maybe translates as people, does the Author of Quran use each word with specific intentions? What is the difference between each words in this case, as per usage in the Quran?

 

[firedragon]

Ok, another people means what?
How does Allah, according to Auther of Quran replaces one people with another people?
Are there any examples in the Quran when Allah replaced one people with another people? When was it? Why was it? And how exactly did Allah replace one people with another people?

I really find it strange that you dont seem to read a single post. I have already explained it three times.

I think when the Quran translation says "replace with another people" you think that one people are taken out and replaced by another like an invasion of a country and swapping people geographically. Nope. Thats not what that means.

Please read my comment again.

Anyway, this replace that you are worried about means "instead of you, there will be another" because you are being stingy. Lol. Because you are being stingy, you are discredited and another people are elevated.

The Quran is not a story book of various happenings to ask for an example of what happened to some people after the Quran has been revealed. And there is absolutely no question about "when" as if it is a narrative of a story like the Bible. Maybe you should read the Qur'an properly and understand its genre well.

So since I have said for the fourth time that "it was because they were stingy", will you ask again "why"?

 

[firedragon]

Ok, another people means what?
How does Allah, according to Auther of Quran replaces one people with another people?
Are there any examples in the Quran when Allah replaced one people with another people? When was it? Why was it? And how exactly did Allah replace one people with another people?

What is the Word used in this verse for another people? And in terms of textual criticism what does that word mean?
You know, in Quran there are at least three words which is translated as People.

الناس
قوم
امه

Though in English each maybe translates as people, does the Author of Quran use each word with specific intentions? What is the difference between each words in this case, as per usage in the Quran?

1. You mentioned the word "An Naas" which means people. But that is not just "people", its humanity. It is a completely different connotation to Kawmun.
2. YOu mentioned Kawmun. This is the word in the verse you are citing. This has a completely different connotation. It has "follower" built in to the word. The replacement in this case means "you are not the correct one" or "you are not the correct one in faith" because you are stingy. Think of a sentence like "Yakawmuhoo feemaa bainahum" which is a "value giving", "among them they gave a value".
3. Third you mentioned Ummi. It doesnt mean people. I dont know where you got that from. It means mother. Or if you may, gentile. Not people.
4. There are other words mentioned in the Quran that refers to people. like Ahl. But that's not relevant.

Peace.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

I really find it strange that you dont seem to read a single post. I have already explained it three times.

I think when the Quran translation says "replace with another people" you think that one people are taken out and replaced by another like an invasion of a country and swapping people geographically. Nope. Thats not what that means.

Please read my comment again.

Anyway, this replace that you are worried about means "instead of you, there will be another" because you are being stingy. Lol. Because you are being stingy, you are discredited and another people are elevated.

The Quran is not a story book of various happenings to ask for an example of what happened to some people after the Quran has been revealed. And there is absolutely no question about "when" as if it is a narrative of a story like the Bible. Maybe you should read the Qur'an properly and understand its genre well.

So since I have said for the fourth time that "it was because they were stingy", will you ask again "why"?

First, when did I say, to replace it means that another people invade another people?
Secondly, if you want to understand what the author of Quran means, by replacing one people with another people, the best way, is to see what He means by that, rather than, using your own imagination. And the way to know what Muhammad meant by replacing you, is to see where else in the Quran He talks about replacing people. That is, to know how He uses this expression in His Book.

 

[firedragon]

First, when did I say, to replace it means that another people invade another people?
Secondly, if you want to understand what the author of Quran means, by replacing one people with another people, the best way, is to see what He means by that, rather than, using your own imagination. And the way to know what Muhammad meant by replacing you, is to see where else in the Quran He talks about replacing people. That is, to know how He uses this expression in His Book.

Exactly.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

1. You mentioned the word "An Naas" which means people. But that is not just "people", its humanity. It is a completely different connotation to Kawmun.
2. YOu mentioned Kawmun. This is the word in the verse you are citing. This has a completely different connotation. It has "follower" built in to the word. The replacement in this case means "you are not the correct one" or "you are not the correct one in faith" because you are stingy. Think of a sentence like "Yakawmuhoo feemaa bainahum" which is a "value giving", "among them they gave a value".
3. Third you mentioned Ummi. It doesnt mean people. I dont know where you got that from. It means mother. Or if you may, gentile. Not people.
4. There are other words mentioned in the Quran that refers to people. like Ahl. But that's not relevant.

Peace.

I didn't say Ummi. I meant Ummah, such as Ummah of Muhammad, or Ummah of Moses. I dont have the ه with two dots, on it. But I expect you to be smarter than that. I cannot believe you really thought I mean Mother.
And, yes, in this verse the word is Qom, قوم.
Which basically means Tribe. For example Arab is a Tribe, or Qom. Jews, are another Tribe. Persians are another tribe.

So, when it says, Allah will change you with another people, this means, Arabs will be changed.
And this comes from Holy Books, that, God previously chose Jews, by sending them Prophets, He did them favor.
Have you ever seen why many Jews consider themselves Chosen Ones of God?

it is precisely for that, they were according to holy Books were chosen by God.

then, according to the Quran, the Jews were became unrighteous and disobeyed God. So, when Allah sent Muhammad to Arabs, He chose them.

Have you seen when Arabs feel special as of they are chosen ones of God, and the people who follow truth?
It is for this reason. As Allah chose them.

now, the Quran says, it will change this Tribe, or Qom.
This can only happen, if Allah send a Messenger to another tribe and choose them. In the same way, that He chose Arabs instead of Jews before.

And Hadithes confirm this as well, and is completely in line with Quran.

In Hadithes which is found in both Sunni and Shia sources, with regards to this verse, it is said, that Muhammad was asked who are the people who Allah will replace Arabs with?
Muhammad pet on the shoulder of Salman the Persian, and said Him and His people, meaning the Persians. In another words, the next Manifestation was to appear among Persians.
This Hadith, is found in both Shia and sunni. In Shia sources it is with regards to Mahdi. That is Mahdi to appear among Persians.



I still have not understood what you really think, this verse means. I want to see how else you imagine. If you will.

 

[firedragon]

I didn't say Ummi. I meant Ummah, such as Ummah of Muhammad, or Ummah of Moses. I dont have the ه with two dots, on it. But I expect you to be smarter than that. I cannot believe you really thought I mean Mother.
And, yes, in this verse the word is Qom, قوم.
Which basically means Tribe. For example Arab is a Tribe, or Qom. Jews, are another Tribe. Persians are another tribe.

So, when it says, Allah will change you with another people, this means, Arabs will be changed.
And this comes from Holy Books, that, God previously chose Jews, by sending them Prophets, He did them favor.
Have you ever seen why many Jews consider themselves Chosen Ones of God?

Nope. It does not mean "Arabs". Like you said its my imagination, and you are going with this so called "tradition", this is your imagination or someone else imagination you had adopted.

I have even given you examples in the language of Fusha atthurath. But obviously you had neglected it because you want it to be "Arab".

Sorry. Thats extremely bad rendering.

Anyway, when you say Jews do you mean Bani Israela or Yahudhi? And when you mean it was a racial or geographical "change" or replacement, were the Jews replaced because they were stingy?

Have you seen when Arabs feel special as of they are chosen ones of God, and the people who follow truth?
It is for this reason. As Allah chose them.

Arabs feeling superior does not impose upon the Quranic text.

now, the Quran says, it will change this Tribe, or Qom.

No. It doesnt.

In Hadithes which is found in both Sunni and Shia sources, with regards to this verse, it is said, that Muhammad was asked who are the people who Allah will replace Arabs with?
Muhammad pet on the shoulder of Salman the Persian, and said Him and His people, meaning the Persians. In another words, the next Manifestation was to appear among Persians.
This Hadith, is found in both Shia and sunni. In Shia sources it is with regards to Mahdi. That is Mahdi to appear among Persians.

I dont mind looking at the ahadith. What are the exact references?

 

[firedragon]

I didn't say Ummi. I meant Ummah, such as Ummah of Muhammad, or Ummah of Moses. I dont have the ه with two dots, on it. But I expect you to be smarter than that. I cannot believe you really thought I mean Mother.

Cmon sis. This is beyond discussion. Please dont do this because I personally think you have better character than this.

You have just typed "ha". This is not a question of Wakth, its the question of an Alif/Hamza.

I never expected this level of discussion really.