Why despite Thousands hadithes, Mahdi is not in Quran?

[firedragon]

According to recorded traditions, many of the verses of Quran are allusions and metaphors about Mahdi.

Thats your faith. Not a historical approach.

Sorry sis. I end this conversation with all due respect because you claimed and called for a historical approach, but it is you who is primarily contradicting your own call for action. You are making a faith claim that the Quranic verses have allusions about Mahdi. Thats a faith claim, not a historical analysis.

So thanks for engaging. I shall respectfully withdraw.

Peace.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Thats not the concept of Tawathur.

Where do the foundations of your assumptions about what Islamic concepts mean come from?

Do these concepts, you use, find explanations in the Quran?

Like the "Concept of Tawathur".

Regards Tony

 

[firedragon]

Where do the foundations of your assumptions about what Islamic concepts mean come from?

Do these concepts, you use, find explanations in the Quran?

Like the "Concept of Tawathur".

Regards Tony

Not at all. Tawathur has nothing to do with the Quran. Tawathur is a concept that was created by traditionally sunni tradition of yasthaheel. This is not a historical method, its an Ilmul Kalaam, a faith matter or Aqeedah. This was an invention of the 11th century and first brought up by hathib al Baghdadi.

Tony. If you read my comment you would see that I am only correcting the wrong idea of this concept, not that I believe in it or if its Quranic. I am only stating what it is in the Usul ul hadith. But in the tradition there are also big time scholars like Ibne Salah in his Muqaddima says there is nothing called Mutawatir.

Hope you understand.

 

[firedragon]

Where do the foundations of your assumptions about what Islamic concepts mean come from?

Respectfully Tony, I would like to request you to not state things like "Assumptions" if you are not sure that I am making assumptions.

I am surprised that someone states an absolutely wrong idea of the concept of Tawatur and when corrected you say "where does your assumption come from". I doubt that's in par with your standard.

If you want evidence to what Tawathur means, please read Fath Al Bari by Ibn Hajar Al Asqalani. This guy is very prominent in the study of ahadith so he comes up quite often in this matter.

He explains that a Mutawathir hadith is one hadith that has multiple narrators in each link of the chain of narrations. So its polar opposite of what the sister was saying. I understand that its been misunderstood, that's all fine. But lets understand it, rather than accusing others of "making assumptions". If you want to read more on this from a simple, modern day writer, maybe Suhaib Hassan in England would do. I cannot remember the title but Im sure it must be freely available.

I think you will understand that.

Have a great day.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Not at all. Tawathur has nothing to do with the Quran. Tawathur is a concept that was created by traditionally sunni tradition of yasthaheel. This is not a historical method, its an Ilmul Kalaam, a faith matter or Aqeedah. This was an invention of the 11th century and first brought up by hathib al Baghdadi.

Tony. If you read my comment you would see that I am only correcting the wrong idea of this concept, not that I believe in it or if its Quranic. I am only stating what it is in the Usul ul hadith. But in the tradition there are also big time scholars like Ibne Salah in his Muqaddima says there is nothing called Mutawatir.

Hope you understand.

I understand Firedragon. I see we tend to reject what is from God, when we put our learning into the mix. I see that is our greatest lesson, humility in knowledge we are gifted.

What becomes apparent to me is, that any God given Message stands upon its own Revelation. It is suggested any Hadith must find support in the Quran, but who can tell us exactly what those words in the Quran contain? I see the line to that Truth was lost a long time ago, though some pure in heart still can have a connection.

In the end, If it is from God, the word will grow and produce fruit, if it is from man the source is soon poisoned and the tree slowly dies.

If scholarship was a path to God, then one may rightly conclude none of the past scholars would reject a Messenger. Thus it may be, to be a true scholar in Faith, one first has to accept the Messengers and then understand and follow the teachings. Once we put our ideas in to those teachings, thinking we have found answers, it may be we have added to the problems.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Respectfully Tony, I would like to request you to not state things like "Assumptions" if you are not sure that I am making assumptions.

I am surprised that someone states an absolutely wrong idea of the concept of Tawatur and when corrected you say "where does your assumption come from". I doubt that's in par with your standard.

All I can offer is sorry, I was not good at English and you only have to ask my wife that corrects me often, to know that I do not always ask correctly what I am trying to ask, or impart what I was trying to say.

In the end I can only hope that for everything there is a reason and God gives as God so desires. Thus this is my greatest test and in turn I see it is also yours.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

If you want evidence to what Tawathur means, please read Fath Al Bari by Ibn Hajar Al Asqalani. This guy is very prominent in the study of ahadith so he comes up quite often in this matter.

I really should try to understand all this, but in the end I say what is the point? That is my failing.

If what Baha'u'llah offered has not changed a mind, how will my understanding of a scholars point of view help? I spend all my study time immersed in those writings now.

I am thinking more silence from me and more actions in my own community. Abdu'l-Baha did say look at me and be that example, be as He was. His deed were his words.

Regards Tony

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Great. With this explanation of the concept, don't misunderstand that I am fully with it. I am only explaining the concept of it.

How you have thought the concept of Tawatur is to authenticate a concept or an idea based on the number of ahadith that mentions this concept. That is not Mutawatir.

Mutawatir is one particular hadith, a hadith is said to be mutawatir if it was reported by a significant, number of narrators at each level in the chain of narration, thus reaching the succeeding generation through multiple chains of narration leading back to its source. So its one particular hadith with mass transmission at each link of the chain of narration.

Hope you understand the difference between what you thought it was to the concept in the Usul al hadith.



Thats not the concept of Tawathur.

I copy from Wikipedia


Types of mutawatir
Hadiths can be mutawatir in both actual text and meaning:

Mutawatir in wording
A hadith whose words are narrated by such a large number as is required for a mutawatir, in a manner that all the narrators are unanimous in reporting it with the same words without any substantial discrepancy.
For example: "[Muhammad said:] Whoever intentionally attributes a lie against me, should prepare his seat in the Fire." This is a mutawatir hadith in its wordings because it has a minimum of seventy-four narrators. In other words, seventy-four companions of Muhammad have reported this hadith at different occasions, all with the same words. The number of those who received this hadith from the Companions is many times greater, because each of the seventy four Companions has conveyed it to a number of his students. Thus the total number of narrators of this hadith has been increasing in each successive generation and has never been less than seventy-four. All these narrators who now are hundreds in number, report it in the same words without even a minor change. This hadith is therefore mutawatir in its wording, because it cannot be imagined reasonably that such a large number of people have colluded to coin a fallacious sentence in order to attribute it to Muhammad.


Mutwatir in meaning
A hadith which is not reported by multiple narrators using the same words. The words of the narrators are different. Sometimes even the reported events are not the same. But all the narrators are unanimous in reporting a basic concept, which is common in all reports. This common concept is also ranked as a mutawatir concept.
For example: It is reported by such a large number of narrators that Muhammad enjoined Muslims to perform two ra'kat in Fajr, four ra'kat in Dhuhr, Asr and Esha and three ra'kat in the Maghrib prayer, yet the narrations of all the reporters who reported the number of ra'kat are not in the same words. Their words are different and even the events reported by them are different. But the common feature of all the reports is the same: the exact number of ra'kat. The hadith is thus said to be mutawatir in meaning.
Hadith terminology - Wikipedia

 

[firedragon]

All I can offer is sorry, I was not good at English and you only have to ask my wife that corrects me often, to know that I do not always ask correctly what I am trying to ask, or impart what I was trying to say.

You are not good in English? What? You are excellent in English. All good brother. All good.

 

[firedragon]

I copy from Wikipedia


Types of mutawatir
Hadiths can be mutawatir in both actual text and meaning:

Mutawatir in wording
A hadith whose words are narrated by such a large number as is required for a mutawatir, in a manner that all the narrators are unanimous in reporting it with the same words without any substantial discrepancy.
For example: "[Muhammad said:] Whoever intentionally attributes a lie against me, should prepare his seat in the Fire." This is a mutawatir hadith in its wordings because it has a minimum of seventy-four narrators. In other words, seventy-four companions of Muhammad have reported this hadith at different occasions, all with the same words. The number of those who received this hadith from the Companions is many times greater, because each of the seventy four Companions has conveyed it to a number of his students. Thus the total number of narrators of this hadith has been increasing in each successive generation and has never been less than seventy-four. All these narrators who now are hundreds in number, report it in the same words without even a minor change. This hadith is therefore mutawatir in its wording, because it cannot be imagined reasonably that such a large number of people have colluded to coin a fallacious sentence in order to attribute it to Muhammad.


Mutwatir in meaning
A hadith which is not reported by multiple narrators using the same words. The words of the narrators are different. Sometimes even the reported events are not the same. But all the narrators are unanimous in reporting a basic concept, which is common in all reports. This common concept is also ranked as a mutawatir concept.
For example: It is reported by such a large number of narrators that Muhammad enjoined Muslims to perform two ra'kat in Fajr, four ra'kat in Dhuhr, Asr and Esha and three ra'kat in the Maghrib prayer, yet the narrations of all the reporters who reported the number of ra'kat are not in the same words. Their words are different and even the events reported by them are different. But the common feature of all the reports is the same: the exact number of ra'kat. The hadith is thus said to be mutawatir in meaning.
Hadith terminology - Wikipedia

Exactly.

 

[firedragon]

I really should try to understand all this, but in the end I say what is the point? That is my failing.

If what Baha'u'llah offered has not changed a mind, how will my understanding of a scholars point of view help? I spend all my study time immersed in those writings now.

I am thinking more silence from me and more actions in my own community. Abdu'l-Baha did say look at me and be that example, be as He was. His deed were his words.

Regards Tony

I was only explaining what it is.

You see Tony. Lets say you understand the concept of the Holy Trinity of the Christian faith because you know it well. And I make an error in understanding it and you correct my error. That does not mean you believe in it. You are only correcting my error.

Hope you understand.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Exactly.

Yes,

I copy Wikipedia:

A hadith attributed to Al-Husayn Al-Ajiri reports:

The traditions of al-Mustafa (S) on the rising of al-Mahdi has been transmitted via numerous authorities and is more than the level of (being sufficient for) Mutawatir, describing that he is of his Ahlul-Bayt, and will fill the earth with justice, and that Jesus (as) will come at the same time and he will assist Jesus for killing al-Dajjal in the land of Palestine, and that he will lead this nation and Jesus will pray behind him.[8]


Also, many other sites by Muslims say hadithes of Mahdi are Mutiwatir:


https://harun-yahya.net/en/New-Information/29661/accounts-regarding-hazrat-mahdi-(as)



Although some scholars criticize some of the hadiths about Mahdi, most scholars think that he will emerge and that there are mutawatir accounts about this issue.

Is Mahdi mentioned in the narrations? | Questions on Islam


RASUL AL-HUSAYN AL-BARZANJI

The existence of Hazrat Mahdi (as) and his appearance in the End Times, that he will be descended from the family of our Prophet (saas) and from the sons of Fatima (ra) are described in hadiths that attain the status of being tawatur, and it is meaningless to deny these hadiths … In true and clear hadiths that go beyond the degree of tawatur , it is proven that Hazrat Mahdi (as) will be descended from the line of Fatima, that he will appear before the world comes to an end, that he will bring justice and sovereignty to a world filled with cruelty and injustice, that the Prophet Jesus (as) will descend from the sky in his time and will perform the prayer under his leadership. (al-Barzanji, Al-Isha'ah li-ashrat al-sa'ah, p. 305)

https://m.harunyahya.com/tr/New-Information/29661/Accounts-regarding-Hazrat-Mahdi-(as)-are-Mutawatir



It is just logically false to think Muhammad never spoke of Mahdi when there are so many Mutiwatir hadithes about Mahdi.

So, then, the question is, why Muhammad did not mention Mahdi explicitly in the Quran?
This question is independent of one's belief in Quran and Muhammad. He spoke of Mahdi so much, yet, He did not include it in His only Book, Quran. Does that make Sense?

 

[firedragon]

Yes,

I copy Wikipedia:

A hadith attributed to Al-Husayn Al-Ajiri reports:

The traditions of al-Mustafa (S) on the rising of al-Mahdi has been transmitted via numerous authorities and is more than the level of (being sufficient for) Mutawatir, describing that he is of his Ahlul-Bayt, and will fill the earth with justice, and that Jesus (as) will come at the same time and he will assist Jesus for killing al-Dajjal in the land of Palestine, and that he will lead this nation and Jesus will pray behind him.[8]


Also, many other sites by Muslims say hadithes of Mahdi are Mutiwatir:


https://harun-yahya.net/en/New-Information/29661/accounts-regarding-hazrat-mahdi-(as)



Although some scholars criticize some of the hadiths about Mahdi, most scholars think that he will emerge and that there are mutawatir accounts about this issue.

Is Mahdi mentioned in the narrations? | Questions on Islam


RASUL AL-HUSAYN AL-BARZANJI

The existence of Hazrat Mahdi (as) and his appearance in the End Times, that he will be descended from the family of our Prophet (saas) and from the sons of Fatima (ra) are described in hadiths that attain the status of being tawatur, and it is meaningless to deny these hadiths … In true and clear hadiths that go beyond the degree of tawatur , it is proven that Hazrat Mahdi (as) will be descended from the line of Fatima, that he will appear before the world comes to an end, that he will bring justice and sovereignty to a world filled with cruelty and injustice, that the Prophet Jesus (as) will descend from the sky in his time and will perform the prayer under his leadership. (al-Barzanji, Al-Isha'ah li-ashrat al-sa'ah, p. 305)

https://m.harunyahya.com/tr/New-Information/29661/Accounts-regarding-Hazrat-Mahdi-(as)-are-Mutawatir



It is just logically false to think Muhammad never spoke of Mahdi when there are so many Mutiwatir hadithes about Mahdi.

So, then, the question is, why Muhammad did not mention Mahdi explicitly in the Quran?
This question is independent of one's belief in Quran and Muhammad. He spoke of Mahdi so much, yet, He did not include it in His only Book, Quran. Does that make Sense?

So bottom line is though you spoke of a historical approach you are now definitely taking a completely faith based approach.

 

[firedragon]

Yes,

I copy Wikipedia:

A hadith attributed to Al-Husayn Al-Ajiri reports:

The traditions of al-Mustafa (S) on the rising of al-Mahdi has been transmitted via numerous authorities and is more than the level of (being sufficient for) Mutawatir, describing that he is of his Ahlul-Bayt, and will fill the earth with justice, and that Jesus (as) will come at the same time and he will assist Jesus for killing al-Dajjal in the land of Palestine, and that he will lead this nation and Jesus will pray behind him.[8]


Also, many other sites by Muslims say hadithes of Mahdi are Mutiwatir:


https://harun-yahya.net/en/New-Information/29661/accounts-regarding-hazrat-mahdi-(as)



Although some scholars criticize some of the hadiths about Mahdi, most scholars think that he will emerge and that there are mutawatir accounts about this issue.

Is Mahdi mentioned in the narrations? | Questions on Islam


RASUL AL-HUSAYN AL-BARZANJI

The existence of Hazrat Mahdi (as) and his appearance in the End Times, that he will be descended from the family of our Prophet (saas) and from the sons of Fatima (ra) are described in hadiths that attain the status of being tawatur, and it is meaningless to deny these hadiths … In true and clear hadiths that go beyond the degree of tawatur , it is proven that Hazrat Mahdi (as) will be descended from the line of Fatima, that he will appear before the world comes to an end, that he will bring justice and sovereignty to a world filled with cruelty and injustice, that the Prophet Jesus (as) will descend from the sky in his time and will perform the prayer under his leadership. (al-Barzanji, Al-Isha'ah li-ashrat al-sa'ah, p. 305)

https://m.harunyahya.com/tr/New-Information/29661/Accounts-regarding-Hazrat-Mahdi-(as)-are-Mutawatir



It is just logically false to think Muhammad never spoke of Mahdi when there are so many Mutiwatir hadithes about Mahdi.

So, then, the question is, why Muhammad did not mention Mahdi explicitly in the Quran?
This question is independent of one's belief in Quran and Muhammad. He spoke of Mahdi so much, yet, He did not include it in His only Book, Quran. Does that make Sense?

Just consider this. What you have done is sis do an internet search for a Muslim who supports your particular point. I know you are senior to me but please let me take the liberty of asking you not to do that. It’s too quick to understand from a holistic point of view. Rather, gain some knowledge what you are stating and some background.

you are a Baha’i. You are quoting adnan oktar in this post. You should know that he claims that he is the promised mahdi. Do you agree with him on that?

 

[loverofhumanity]

Gracious God! The appearance of His Manifestation is mentioned explicitly in the Qurʼán, without any need for commentary or interpretation:

“And thy Lord shall come and the angels rank on rank” (Qurʼán 89:22.)
https://bahai-library.com/abdulbaha_masumian_twelfth_imam#fn7
And yet have they regarded this matter with doubt, been unsettled by it, offered tenuous interpretations to explain it, and clung to narratives that have ultimately caused confusion and vacillation. (Abdul-Baha - provisional translation)


Further Revelations anticipated by the Quran

And were every tree that is in the earth (made into) pens and the sea (to supply it with ink), with seven more seas to increase it, the words of Allah would not come to an end; surely Allah is Mighty, Wise. (Quran 31:27)

References

A Tablet from 'Abduʼl-Bahá regarding the Twelfth Imám

[URL="http://www.internetmosque.net/read/english_translation_of_the_quran_meaning/31/27/index.htm"]Compared Translations of the meaning of the Quran - 31:27[/URL]

 

[paarsurrey]

You said Surah Anbiyah and now you are quoting An Nur.

Do you accept that in the verses 21:70 onwards the word Mahdi is not mentioned?

Please read the full article:
IS IMAM MAHDI MENTIONED IN THE QURAN?
The Quranic Evidence: Truthfulness of The Promised Messiah: 4th & 5th Q THE CRITERIA OF A TRUE PROPHET
It is just two pages. Right, please?

Regards

 

[firedragon]

Please read the full article:
IS IMAM MAHDI MENTIONED IN THE QURAN?
The Quranic Evidence: Truthfulness of The Promised Messiah: 4th & 5th Q THE CRITERIA OF A TRUE PROPHET
It is just two pages. Right, please?

Regards

I did. But the verse still doesnt say "Mahdi". What you have given is an inference. Not direct text. So again, those verses dont say Mahdi and calls no old prophet by that name either.

Hope you understand.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

So bottom line is though you spoke of a historical approach you are now definitely taking a completely faith based approach.

So, historical approach to you mean, set aside hadithes, and simply ignore them and consider them completely useless and trustworthy?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

.

you are a Baha’i. You are quoting adnan oktar in this post. You should know that he claims that he is the promised mahdi. Do you agree with him on that?

No, I don't agree with him on that. But I agree with him, that the hadithes of Mahdi are Mutiwatir in meaning.

Why do you think, if he was a false mahdi, then everything he said is also false?

I am not quoting him as an authority. I am quoting that t site, because it points to many hadithes of Mahdi. The hadithes of Mahdi were not invented by him.

 

[firedragon]

So, historical approach to you mean, set aside hadithes, and simply ignore them as consider them completely useless and trustworthy?

Yes. That is a historical approach to the Qur'an. That is a historical approach to the Bible.

But you are making a side note trying to create a false dichotomy saying "either you dont take a historical approach or if you do, you are saying all ahadith are completely useless and untrustworthy".

What are you planning to achieve by this kind of false arguments?