Why despite Thousands hadithes, Mahdi is not in Quran?

[InvestigateTruth]

A truly appreciate you saying 'take a historical approach, not faith'.

Historically, the Qur'an is the only document that is dated to the prophets time, both palaeographical as well as carbon dating.

.

Let's start from beginning then, the Quran, and existence of Muhammad.

You are saying the Quran dates back to the time of Prophet. How does that prove, the Quran historically was written by Muhammad? There were many other people living in those days. How do you know if actually a person whose name was Muhammad living at that time existed? Even if He existed How do you know the Quran was not written by a someone else or a group living at the same time as Muhammad?

Just let's go step by step.

 

[paarsurrey]

Okay. Let me be more specific.

I read through all three verses, 71, 72, 73 of the Surah Al Anbiya which is the 21st chapter of the Qur'an.

The word "Mahdi" is not mentioned in them. So again, since you said that it calls them "Mahdi" could you please clarify?

Further to my post #20. please read the article from the link provided by me.

Mahdi as I understand, is a Khailfa/Successor of Muhammad at the "end of the times" as promised to Muhammad by Allah :

[24:56]
وَعَدَ اللّٰہُ الَّذِیۡنَ اٰمَنُوۡا مِنۡکُمۡ وَ عَمِلُوا الصّٰلِحٰتِ لَیَسۡتَخۡلِفَنَّہُمۡ فِی الۡاَرۡضِ کَمَا اسۡتَخۡلَفَ الَّذِیۡنَ مِنۡ قَبۡلِہِمۡ ۪ وَ لَیُمَکِّنَنَّ لَہُمۡ دِیۡنَہُمُ الَّذِی ارۡتَضٰی لَہُمۡ وَ لَیُبَدِّلَنَّہُمۡ مِّنۡۢ بَعۡدِ خَوۡفِہِمۡ اَمۡنًا ؕ یَعۡبُدُوۡنَنِیۡ لَا یُشۡرِکُوۡنَ بِیۡ شَیۡئًا ؕ وَ مَنۡ کَفَرَ بَعۡدَ ذٰلِکَ فَاُولٰٓئِکَ ہُمُ الۡفٰسِقُوۡنَ ﴿۵۶﴾
Allah has promised to those among you who believe and do good works that He will surely make them Successors in the earth, as He made Successors from among those who were before them; and that He will surely establish for them their religion which He has chosen for them; and that He will surely give them in exchange security and peace after their fear: They will worship Me, and they will not associate anything with Me. Then whoso is ungrateful after that, they will be the rebellious.
24:57]
وَ اَقِیۡمُوا الصَّلٰوۃَ وَ اٰتُوا الزَّکٰوۃَ وَ اَطِیۡعُوا الرَّسُوۡلَ لَعَلَّکُمۡ تُرۡحَمُوۡنَ ﴿۵۷﴾
And observe Prayer and give the Zakat and obey the Messenger, that you may be shown mercy.
The Holy Quran - Chapter: 24: An-Nur
So, Mahdi/Successor of Muhammad is not to bring any new book but to follow Quran and Sunnah of Muhammad.
This is the First key point in this discussion, as I understand. Right, please?

Regards

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Sis. None of them go back to Ali. The ahadith you provided in the wiki page, one of them mention Ali but that is not a narration of Ali. It is a narration of Said ibne jubair. He mentions Ali, that doesnt mean its a narration of Ali.

Hope you understand.

.

I didnt say I provided you with a Hadith of Ali. I provided you with a hadith of companion of Muhammad. The Hadithes of Ali are collected in Shia books.

Hope you understand sis.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Please read the following article:
The Quranic Evidence: Truthfulness of The Promised Messiah: 3rd Q ANY NEWS IN QURAN ABOUT ADVENT OF A PROPHET?
Sorry, I forgot to provide the link which has now been provided. Right, please?

Regards

Thanks, but I would be interested in discussing here from your own post.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

I didnt say "all Hadiths are false and/or fabricated" so that's not valid to even say that as a response.

Peace.

Ok, then please explain how do you determine if a hadith is true or false?

 

[firedragon]

You are saying the Quran dates back to the time of Prophet. How does that prove, the Quran historically was written by Muhammad?

It doesnt prove Muhammed wrote it. So whats your argument? Tu Quoque?

Bad argument. Because again, the Quran is closer to Muhammed in time. So please, as you yourself advised, take a historical approach, not a faith.

 

[firedragon]

Ok, then please explain how do you determine if a hadith is true or false?

I said "I dont claim all hadith are fabricated/lies". That does not mean I have to give you some manner in which I authenticate ahadith. Its a faith question you are asking for.

So, please, I request that you stick to a historical approach like you yourself asserted.

 

[firedragon]

Further to my post #20. please read the article from the link provided by me.

Mahdi as I understand, is a Khailfa/Successor of Muhammad at the "end of the times" as promised to Muhammad by Allah :

[24:56]
وَعَدَ اللّٰہُ الَّذِیۡنَ اٰمَنُوۡا مِنۡکُمۡ وَ عَمِلُوا الصّٰلِحٰتِ لَیَسۡتَخۡلِفَنَّہُمۡ فِی الۡاَرۡضِ کَمَا اسۡتَخۡلَفَ الَّذِیۡنَ مِنۡ قَبۡلِہِمۡ ۪ وَ لَیُمَکِّنَنَّ لَہُمۡ دِیۡنَہُمُ الَّذِی ارۡتَضٰی لَہُمۡ وَ لَیُبَدِّلَنَّہُمۡ مِّنۡۢ بَعۡدِ خَوۡفِہِمۡ اَمۡنًا ؕ یَعۡبُدُوۡنَنِیۡ لَا یُشۡرِکُوۡنَ بِیۡ شَیۡئًا ؕ وَ مَنۡ کَفَرَ بَعۡدَ ذٰلِکَ فَاُولٰٓئِکَ ہُمُ الۡفٰسِقُوۡنَ ﴿۵۶﴾
Allah has promised to those among you who believe and do good works that He will surely make them Successors in the earth, as He made Successors from among those who were before them; and that He will surely establish for them their religion which He has chosen for them; and that He will surely give them in exchange security and peace after their fear: They will worship Me, and they will not associate anything with Me. Then whoso is ungrateful after that, they will be the rebellious.
24:57]
وَ اَقِیۡمُوا الصَّلٰوۃَ وَ اٰتُوا الزَّکٰوۃَ وَ اَطِیۡعُوا الرَّسُوۡلَ لَعَلَّکُمۡ تُرۡحَمُوۡنَ ﴿۵۷﴾
And observe Prayer and give the Zakat and obey the Messenger, that you may be shown mercy.
The Holy Quran - Chapter: 24: An-Nur
So, Mahdi/Successor of Muhammad is not to bring any new book but to follow Quran and Sunnah of Muhammad.
This is the First key point in this discussion, as I understand. Right, please?

Regards

You said Surah Anbiyah and now you are quoting An Nur.

Do you accept that in the verses 21:70 onwards the word Mahdi is not mentioned?

 

[firedragon]

I didnt say I provided you with a Hadith of Ali. I provided you with a hadith of companion of Muhammad. The Hadithes of Ali are collected in Shia books.

Yeah. But what I said was, since you were referring to ahadith, let me cut and paste what I said so that you could read again.

Now, analysing the ahadith with the Mahdi in it most of it are narrated by Abu Hurraira who was not a close companion of the prophet according to the same ahadith sources. Then you do get some others who are hardly known as prominent figures. I find it strange that such an important teaching doesnt come from a chain reaching any of the closest companions like Ali, Abu Bakr etc.

Anyway sis, what you said is not true. Abu Muhammad that you quoted is not a close companion of Muhammed. He was known as one of the successors or a Thabieen. Not Rufaqa assahaba.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

It doesnt prove Muhammed wrote it. So whats your argument? Tu Quoque?

Bad argument. Because again, the Quran is closer to Muhammed in time. So please, as you yourself advised, take a historical approach, not a faith.

Ok, so you don't have any proofs Quran was written by Muhammad?

So, it was your argument. I understood you meant to say since the hadithes were not written in the time of Muhammad, they are not trustworthy.
But, I am pointing out that, whether or not the hadithes were written at the time of Muhammad, or later neither proves or disproves the authenticity of the hadithes.

However, there is what is called Mutiwatir hadith.
If a hadith is narrated by various people, through various chains or various narrators, it is mutiwatir. And the more it is repeated, the more possibility that it is authentic. With regards to the Mahdi, there are thousands of hadithese. So, it makes it almost impossible to say, the idea of Mahdi, did not originate from Muhammad.

Hadith terminology - Wikipedia.

 

[firedragon]

Ok, so you don't have any proofs Quran was written by Muhammad?

Of course not. No one does.

So, it was your argument. I understood you meant to say since the hadithes were not written in the time of Muhammad, they are not trustworthy.
But, I am pointing out that, whether or not the hadithes were written at the time of Muhammad, or later neither proves or disproves the authenticity of the hadithes.

So you are saying that the Quran and ahadith are the same. The Quran being written in early 7th century, and ahadith written several centuries later, are both the same. Thats why you took the Quran as an example. Hmm. Interesting argument, but an invalid one.

However, there is what is called Mutiwatir hadith.
If a hadith is narrated by various people, through various chains or various narrators, it is mutiwatir. And the more it is repeated, the more possibility that it is authentic. With regards to the Mahdi, there are thousands of hadithese. So, it makes it almost impossible to say, the idea of Mahdi, did not originate from Muhammad.

I can easily see that you have not understood the idea of tawatur so that's why your comment above is that far from the theory of tawatur.

Can you quote me a few mutawatir ahadith about the Mahdi?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Yeah. But what I said was, since you were referring to ahadith, let me cut and paste what I said so that you could read again.

Now, analysing the ahadith with the Mahdi in it most of it are narrated by Abu Hurraira who was not a close companion of the prophet according to the same ahadith sources. Then you do get some others who are hardly known as prominent figures. I find it strange that such an important teaching doesnt come from a chain reaching any of the closest companions like Ali, Abu Bakr etc.

Anyway sis, what you said is not true. Abu Muhammad that you quoted is not a close companion of Muhammed. He was known as one of the successors or a Thabieen. Not Rufaqa assahaba.

The hadith i provided was by Jabir Ibn Abdillah al-Ansari. He was a companion of Muhammad.

Here is an example of a Hadith from Ali:

It is narrated from Abul Mufaddal Shaibani from Kulaini from Muhammad Attar from Salma Ibnul Khattab from Muhammad Tayalisi from Ibne Abi Umaira and Salih bin Uqbah together from Al-Qama bin Muhammad Hadhrami from Imam Ja’far Sadiq (a.s.) that he narrated from his forefathers from Imam Ali (a.s.):

The Messenger of Allah (s.a.w.s.) said:
“O Ali, when our Qaim reappears, 313 persons will join him and when it
is the time of uprising, his sword will come out of the cover automatically and
call out: O Wali of Allah, arise and eliminate the enemies of Allah.”

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Of course not. No one does.



So you are saying that the Quran and ahadith are the same. The Quran being written in early 7th century, and ahadith written several centuries later, are both the same. Thats why you took the Quran as an example. Hmm. Interesting argument, but an invalid one.



I can easily see that you have not understood the idea of tawatur so that's why your comment above is that far from the theory of tawatur.

Can you quote me a few mutawatir ahadith about the Mahdi?

There are two types of Mutiwatir. Mutiwatir in meaning, and Mutiwatir in the whole narration.

I already quoted from Wikipedia that there are just 29 hadithes speaking of Christ praying behind Mahdi. This is an example of Mutiwatir in meaning.
All of these haditheses are attributed to Muhammad. It is irrelevant who attributed them to Muhammad to call them mutiwatir or not.
Just look at another well known hadith. It says, just as the earth will be filled with tyranny, the Mahdi will fill it with Justice. You would be able to find such hadith in both Shia and Sunni collections.

All of Hadithes of Mahdi, one way or another , have a common meaning. That meaning is the appearance of a Promised person to establish justice, true religion. So, in this sense they are Mutiwatir in meaning.

 

[firedragon]

The hadith i provided was by Jabir Ibn Abdillah al-Ansari. He was a companion of Muhammad.

I think you dont understand what it means to be "close companion'. Rufaaqa assahaba. I wonder if its worth typing things you tend to ignore.

There are two types of Mutiwatir. Mutiwatir in meaning, and Mutiwatir in the whole narration.

I already quoted from Wikipedia that there are just 29 hadithes speaking of Christ praying behind Mahdi. This is an example of Mutiwatir in meaning.
All of these haditheses are attributed to Muhammad. It is irrelevant who attributed them to Muhammad to call them mutiwatir or not.
Just look at another well known hadith. It says, just as the earth will be filled with tyranny, the Mahdi will fill it with Justice. You would be able to find such hadith in both Shia and Sunni collections.

All of Hadithes of Mahdi, one way or another , have a common meaning. That meaning is the appearance of a Promised person to establish justice, true religion. So, in this sense they are Mutiwatir in meaning.

If that's what you mean by Mutawatir, you have not understood it at all.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

I think you dont understand what it means to be "close companion'. Rufaaqa assahaba. I wonder if its worth typing things you tend to ignore.



If that's what you mean by Mutawatir, you have not understood it at all.

I said what is in Wikipedia. Mutiwatir is two types.

I didnt see any reason from you, why and how so many people were busy fabricating hadithes about a Mahdi.
Just because Mahdi is not explicitly in the Quran, is not a prove He is not in the Quran. It is generally agreed Quran contains allusions. So, how can it be said, Mahdi is not alluded to, in the Quran?


As regards to the Hadithes, it is reported from many different chains. These chains are independent from each other, so, no way it can be said, those people were working together fabricating hadithes. Afterall, why would so many were after fabricating so many different sayings about a Mahdi who is to appear at the period of End Time? It is baseless to think these hadithes were fabricated.



So, the bottom line is, we have many reports from various chains that Muhammad spoke somethings about Mahdi. So, we might be doubtful about their details if, there were contradictions, but we cannot be doubtful about Muhammad speaking about a Mahdi.

I hope you understand.

 

[firedragon]

I said what is in Wikipedia. Mutiwatir is two types.

I didnt see any reason from you, why and how so many people were busy fabricating hadithes about a Mahdi.
Just because Mahdi is not explicitly in the Quran, is not a prove He is not in the Quran. It is generally agreed Quran contains allusions. So, how can it be said, Mahdi is not alluded to, in the Quran?


As regards to the Hadithes, it is reported from many different chains. These chains are independent from each other, so, no way it can be said, those people were working together fabricating hadithes. Afterall, why would so many were after fabricating so many different sayings about a Mahdi who is to appear at the period of End Time? It is baseless to think these hadithes were fabricated.



So, the bottoming is, we have many reports from various chains that Muhammad spoke somethings about Mahdi. So, we might be doubtful about their details if, there were contradictions, but we cannot be doubtful about Muhammad speaking about a Mahdi.

I hope you understand.

But you have misunderstood the idea of tawatur.

Anyway, it still stands that the Quran is the only document historically established closest to Muhammeds time. And it doesnt contain the Mahdi which it would have named since its such an important teaching.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

But you have misunderstood the idea of tawatur.

Anyway, it still stands that the Quran is the only document historically established closest to Muhammeds time. And it doesnt contain the Mahdi which it would have named since its such an important teaching.

You keep saying I misunderstood idea of Mutiwatir, but you don't explain what is the correct understanding of it. So, your point cannot be taken.

The idea can be demonstrated by a simple example.

Suppose there are 10 independent witnesses, talking about what they saw yesterday.

Person one says, I saw James yesterday in xx Street eating ice cream.
Person 2 says, yesterday I saw James eating fruits in xx street yesterday
Person 3 says, I saw James eating fruits in xx street
Person 4 says i saw James eating ice cream in xx street.

And likewise, the rest of them says, they saw James eating something.


From their statements, we can certainly conclude, yesterday, James was in the street. We may not be sure if James was eating ice cream or fruits or anything.

You cannot say that just because some of them said James was eating ice cream and some of them were saying it was fruit, then their testimony about seeing James is completely false. Their story about seeing James is Mutiwatir, but with respect to what James was eating is not Mutiwatir.


Likewise, we have many independent witnesses who have said they heard Muhammad speaking about Mahdi. We may not be sure about exactly what Muhammad said about Mahdi, but we can be certain, He was saying somethings about Mahdi.


Peace.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Anyway, it still stands that the Quran is the only document historically established closest to Muhammeds time.

And this reasoning alone that Quran being closer to the time of Muhammad makes Quran more possible to be authentic than hadith is incorrect.
You must show, there were not any personal interests for a group of Arabs, together help Muhammad write Quran.

But as regards to hadithes of Mahdi, because these hadithes were narrated from many independent chains, it makes it impossible for them to have a personal interest in fabricating hadithes about a Mahdi.
It's more probable that a group for their own personal interest for gathering followers to conquare different cities, they helped each other writing Quran, to make a religious group to invade others.
but, what personal interest so many different chains could have had to invent hadithes about a Mahdi who would appear before end of the world?

And it doesnt contain the Mahdi which it would have named since its such an important teaching.

According to recorded traditions, many of the verses of Quran are allusions and metaphors about Mahdi.
It makes a lot more sense to say, Muhammad also revealed in the Quran about Mahdi, though in the form of allusions and symbols, than to say, thousands of hadithes about Mahdi were fabricated.
Hope you understand

 

[firedragon]

You keep saying I misunderstood idea of Mutiwatir, but you don't explain what is the correct understanding of it.

Great. With this explanation of the concept, don't misunderstand that I am fully with it. I am only explaining the concept of it.

How you have thought the concept of Tawatur is to authenticate a concept or an idea based on the number of ahadith that mentions this concept. That is not Mutawatir.

Mutawatir is one particular hadith, a hadith is said to be mutawatir if it was reported by a significant, number of narrators at each level in the chain of narration, thus reaching the succeeding generation through multiple chains of narration leading back to its source. So its one particular hadith with mass transmission at each link of the chain of narration.

Hope you understand the difference between what you thought it was to the concept in the Usul al hadith.

Likewise, we have many independent witnesses who have said they heard Muhammad speaking about Mahdi. We may not be sure about exactly what Muhammad said about Mahdi, but we can be certain, He was saying somethings about Mahdi.

Thats not the concept of Tawathur.

 

[firedragon]

And this reasoning alone that Quran being closer to the time of Muhammad makes Quran more possible to be authentic than hadith is incorrect.
You must show, there were not any personal interests for a group of Arabs, together help Muhammad write Quran.

No one can show anything like that because you are making an assumption, and the respondent will also make an assumption. Historically no one can prove that there was no agenda.

But if you think that documents written centuries later supersedes the authority of a document closer to the source, I dont think there is any point in further discussion. You are making a faith statement. Not a historical analysis. Its Ahistorical.