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Featured Why Darwinism is a saner attitude...

Discussion in 'Evolution Vs. Creationism' started by Estro Felino, Aug 12, 2019 at 9:38 AM.

  1. PruePhillip

    PruePhillip Well-Known Member

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    Maybe OK, but not clear.[/QUOTE]

    I recall a group of august council of churches members watching a video on a bonobo
    masturbating. They were amazed at how human that chimp was. Yes, we are animals -
    the bible tells us we are kin to the animals. But the bible says we are much more than
    animals, and we are in a fallen state.
    Denying this leads to interesting consequences. We are seeing a lot of it in our
    Postmodern philosophies today, and in Marx's belief in Rousseau's "blank slate"
    of human perfection. And of course, chimps go to war, so do humans.
     
  2. ImmortalFlame

    ImmortalFlame Well-Known Member

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    ...

    ...

    ...

    What Church was this?
     
  3. Polymath257

    Polymath257 Think & Care
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    Well, that which can be determined by the evidence we have today as determined by using the laws of science. This has no relation to the Biblical story.
     
  4. PruePhillip

    PruePhillip Well-Known Member

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    Really?
    Here's that list again from Genesis 1.

    1- God created the heavens
    2- and the earth
    3- and the earth was a cloud and ocean world
    4- and the skies cleared
    5- and continents rose
    6- and life emerged on the land
    7- and then in the sea
    8- and finally man.
     
  5. Polymath257

    Polymath257 Think & Care
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    Yes, I understand that Genesis says this. So what?

    This does NOT describe the actual sequence of events historically. And, when you look at Genesis in more detail, the correspondence gets worse, not better.

    In particular, life started in water. Even if it was puddles on land, that is still in water.

    Second, the 'heavens' continued to form even after the earth was formed. new stars are even forming today.

    But, of course, we don't *expect* the myths of people from 2000 years ago to be consistent with the observations of modern science. They are myths.
     
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  6. PruePhillip

    PruePhillip Well-Known Member

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    Yes, life in water - maybe. Used to be this "thermal springs" stuff but now we know that life cannot
    form easily in salt water. So it's fresh water life - last week it was in volcanic rock, and some say
    clay. But it's land based - a long way from the old sea based.
    Saturn's Titan moon is called an "earth analogue" by NASA. It's a cloud planet, like Venus, Saturn,
    etc and it's a sea planet (but not an ocean planet like billions of worlds are thought to be) Earth
    began as a cloud planet, ocean planet. Dark and wet, and maybe cold. And then the water helped
    the process of subduction which created the granite continents. Genesis transports you to the
    early earth - not to the snowball earth, or the molten earth, or the big bang - Genesis addresses
    just the earth (the universe was already there.)
     
  7. Polymath257

    Polymath257 Think & Care
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    That is still very far from being proven. The option of deep sea vents is, as far as I am aware, still very much an option for where abiogenesis happened. And, truthfully, it may well be a combination of reactions, some of which happened in small ponds and others that happened in deep sea vents, and others that were catalyzed in clays.

    Well, we can then talk about the progression described in Genesis itself.

    Exactly what is the 'firmament'? And what are the waters it separates?

    The 'gathering of the waters' has no correspondence in the actual past.

    In Genesis, flowering plants were made before land animals. And the 'great lights' in the sky were made after that. This is contrary to what we know of the actual sequence of events.

    Genesis has whales and birds being made prior to the development of land animals, again contrary to what we know. It seems that Genesis doesn't realize that whales are mammals.

    So, no, Genesis gets many events very much out of sequence *even on the Earth*.
     
  8. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon Veteran Member
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    The reason why it is not clear is exemplified by your response. Much of what you present above is the human view of how and why the science of evolution applies Your describing philosophical/theological views, which do not represent the science of evolution. Theological concepts such as 'Fallen State,' represent a theological belief, and the concept of "blank state," and 'Social Darwinism,' are old philosophical views, and no longer compatible with the science of evolution. The statement, 'We are much more that that,' again represents philosophical and theological assumptions and beliefs, and does not conflict with the science of evolution.

    Actually science does acknowledge we have evolved complex behavior involved in nurturing, emotions, and social family and community bonding, which are found in simpler forms in other animals, particularly mammals.
     
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  9. PruePhillip

    PruePhillip Well-Known Member

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    The bible goes out of its way to express that man is two creatures - something Christian churches
    never understood. The synthesis of urea was a big shock to many as it showed there was "organic
    chemistry" and maybe we really are made of the dust, made of clay, emerging from the earth.
    Often the bible speaks of two brothers that represent to duality of our lives - Isaac and Ishmael,
    Jacob and Esau. The bible says we are akin to the animals, but we are more than that - we have
    a soul.
    To those church men watching the bonobo we had become just an animal. And when we need to
    explain something we refer to this animal. Thus a man could kill the child of his partner's former
    lover - why? Because animals do it and we are animals.
    Yes, there's evolution. God commanded His creation to create - and that's a marvel. But the
    sociological impact of this has not been good.
     
  10. PruePhillip

    PruePhillip Well-Known Member

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    No, Genesis says that God COMMANDED the earth to create - not God, the earth.
    It tells you what came out of the earth - not in sequence here, but what came out
    of the earth.
    And it tells you that life then sprang in the oceans, and it tells you again what came
    out of the oceans - not in sequence here, just what came out of the oceans.
    Thus we have fish, whales and birds.
    Huh.... birds? Yes, birds are dinosaurs who came from reptiles who came from
    amphibians who came from lobe-fin fish who came from fish.... must have been
    something for skeptics in former centuries to mock - birds from the sea.

    I have no idea what firmament really means. Lost in translation.
    You can tease out interesting things if you are sensitive to what the text is saying.
    If you're dismissive you miss it. But I find it quite enchanting. I dismissed it all
    myself until the discovery of water bearing zirconium here in Australia - what?
    was the early earth oceanic? And then came Titan; life on land first and other
    discoveries, all in the space of 20 years. So I have a grudging respect for
    Genesis now.
     
  11. ChristineM

    ChristineM "Be strong" I whispered to my coffee.
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    ROFLMAO

    It explains nothing because at the moment all we have is best guess based on environment and that guess does not include god dunit

    But it does help to appease minds who cannot cope with the idea of 'we dont know' so restricts learning... Like i said, dangerous
     
  12. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon Veteran Member
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    This view of Creation is similar to mine, but on a more universal physically and spiritually evolving humanity.
     
  13. leov

    leov Well-Known Member
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    Imo, it explains better than evolution alone, which is a part of OEC theory,.
    Hanging alone evolution, the greatest miracle I know. Before using Periodic Table evolution does not bother figuring out where the table came from.
     
  14. ChristineM

    ChristineM "Be strong" I whispered to my coffee.
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    You are welcome to your beliefs

    Evolution is evidenced beyond doubt... Miracle? Nope.

    The periodic table has nothing to do with it evolution so it does not care.
     
  15. ratiocinator

    ratiocinator Strange Loop

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    OEC isn't a theory - it's just saying "it's magic".

    Then I suspect that you don't understand it.

    Eh? What's that got to do with it?
     
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  16. leov

    leov Well-Known Member
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    We have room - 95% of what to know are still coming our way….
     
  17. leov

    leov Well-Known Member
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    Think harder...
     
  18. ChristineM

    ChristineM "Be strong" I whispered to my coffee.
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    What?
     
  19. leov

    leov Well-Known Member
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    Means:
    "Life on Earth first bloomed around 3.7 billion years ago, when chemical compounds in a "primordial soup" somehow sparked into life, scientists suspect. But what turned sterile molecules into living, changing organisms? That's the ultimate mystery."
    How Earth's Primordial Soup Came to Life
     
  20. ChristineM

    ChristineM "Be strong" I whispered to my coffee.
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