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Featured Why Can't Religious Leaders say, "I don't know"?

Discussion in 'Seekers Circle' started by Ellen Brown, Aug 28, 2019.

  1. Ellen Brown

    Ellen Brown Well-Known Member
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    There has been so much carnage and pain caused by those who purport to be religious leaders because they expound on things they have no way of knowing anything about. It is painful to think about and it appears to have gone on for such a disappointingly long time.

    No belief system seems untouched by this unbridled stupidity and egotism.

    Why in Heaven's name can we just admit that we are not Gods? Libraries are full of the expoundings of countless numbers of fat old men who assumed far too much. And, many of these works have proven to be outright lies that give comfort to no one; instead causing inexcusable suffering.

    Sad and disappointed.
     
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  2. Revoltingest

    Revoltingest Greased up & ready for action!
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    The only qualification for being a religious leader
    is to have people being led.

    Have something against "fat old men"?
    Is such religious pretense really determined by weight, age, & gender?
     
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  3. Amanaki

    Amanaki Well-Known Member

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    I think much of it comes down to ego from some of the spiritual leaders, they think they look weak if they can not answer questions from the followers
     
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  4. Geoff-Allen

    Geoff-Allen Resident megalomaniac

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    It's fairly simple really - so far in human history there have been very few people who can deal with the uncomfortable feeling of not-being-sure. So it is the same phenomenon in different belief systems. Just as long as it soothes a person's anxieties they can believe in anything as long as it gives the illusion of being absolutely and unequivocally correct.

    You and I just have to live with the fact that others aren't (yet) as evolved in their personality - and even saying that is a tad judgemental from me. I have to assume everyone is doing the best they know how but so far as a species we have been terribly afraid of doubt & anxiety.

    Here's an interesting article I was reading before logging onto this forum -

    Richard Feynman on Science vs. Religion and Why Uncertainty Is Central to Morality

    As I also said in a recent thread - it isn't really about right & wrong beliefs. The only salient question is whether your beliefs are helping you or hindering you from becoming a more compassionate member of the human species.

    That is why people like the Dalai Lama - after all he has been through he still has compassion even for those who continue to behave abysmally.

    Wishing you all the best in processing your disappointments - it aint easy

    Ciao!
     
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  5. Epic Beard Man

    Epic Beard Man Bearded Philosopher

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    The same way many "specialist" wouldn't say I don't know. The attempt to dissuade seekers of enlightenment from turning away and seeking disbelief.
     
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  6. sun rise

    sun rise "Let there be peace and love among all"
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    Religion all too often is an ego-driven organization dominated by people who use the organization for power, wealth and so forth.
     
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  7. Epic Beard Man

    Epic Beard Man Bearded Philosopher

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    The religious ought to take your cue very insightful.
     
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  8. Amanaki

    Amanaki Well-Known Member

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    I agree that the organized religions have somewhat become corrupted by greedy and egoistic people who only want to "shine" from their fame in the religion they supposed to lead. Unfortunately, I believe we will see more and more of this in the years to come. Some of this also come from the "leaders" being attached to money and fame, and those two aspects destroy the morality in the leaders.
    Often we see that the really enlighten teachers are far part and difficult to hide since they have no interest in fame or money. ( example here is the spiritual people deep in Himalaya, Not the part where tourists go )
     
  9. Ellen Brown

    Ellen Brown Well-Known Member
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    These days, it seems clear that almost none of our beliefs about religion, any religion, can be proved. I believe in God out of my own choice and that because it seems right. So many of the Evangelical and Muslim leaders try to bully you and have control over you. The worst and most disappointing to me were the Mormon leaders. They broke my faith and it took a long time to recover.
     
  10. Amanaki

    Amanaki Well-Known Member

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    Something not many think of today is that what we call religion actually is man-made, it becomes religion when people started to organize the teachings into schools. but before religion it was called cultivation path, and at that time it was not based on belief, but based on what they actually experienced from the teachers, both in energy and in visions. ( very few visions today )
    But i can be wrong in some of what i wrote here :)
     
  11. Ellen Brown

    Ellen Brown Well-Known Member
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    Your choices are yours and I do not contest them. For me, my own belief calls me to be loving to others, and help them as an honor to the God that I worship. It would be ludicrous for me to require that of others.
     
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  12. Heyo

    Heyo Active Member

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    It's not the fat, old men who are to blame but everyone else.
    When a group of people are lost in the woods and they ask themselves "Which way shall we go?", those who shrug their shoulders are not made leaders. It's those who can convincingly say "I know. That way!".
    And if there are multiple candidates for leader, that one will be made leader who is most convincing in his certainty to know. It also helps to have a short, simple explanation for the reason why a certain direction is the way to go (it doesn't matter if the explanation is wrong).
    That's why leaders never admit to not know. Those who did, are not accepted leaders.
     
  13. Skwim

    Skwim Veteran Member

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    I believe that to be a religious leader one must sign a nondisclosure agreement that one is all-knowing, and will present themselves as such. All of which means that all pronouncements, proclamations, declarations, assertions, judgments, rulings, adjudications, decrees, edicts, dictums, promulgations, and deliverances carry the illusion of truth whether in fact they are or not.

    .
     
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  14. beenherebeforeagain

    beenherebeforeagain Rogue Animist
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    very true, but I'll still amend it...way before there were 'teachers,' there was the local hunter/gatherer group...their "beliefs" and practices reflected the day-to-day world in which they lived, which they experienced in very physical and pragmatic ways. Because humans are storytellers and because of the natural tendency to identify very subtle clues in the environment, in these clannish groups they developed social relationships with the other persons, human and non-human, of their environment, and a raft of beliefs and practices related to maintaining good relations with their food and other resources.

    This, I believe, was the true beginning of 'religion"...the people in the group that possessed and maintained the stories of their community were the elders and those who provided what today are called 'shamanistic' and healing services...

    As societies grew settled and increased in number with the development of agriculture, it became increasingly difficult to unify the increasingly large and diverse populations...from the tribal elders and head men arose the kings and priests of the 'civilized' societies and religions...

    They durst not say "I don't know" because that would mean that they were not completely powerful and knowing, and someone who could come up with a reasonable story could displace them...
     
  15. Vinayaka

    Vinayaka devotee
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    Lots of folks can say 'I don't know'. This includes religious leaders. What we're objecting to is faking it, and I get that. My doctor, for example, is great at referring to specialists cause he easily says 'I don't know'.
     
  16. LuisDantas

    LuisDantas Aura of atheification
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    The plain fact is that overall people respond better to the appearance of certainty than to admissions of doubt, ignorance or uncertainty.

    That results directly in certainty - even faked certainty - being more influential in politics and religion than honest admissions of anything else.
     
  17. Ellen Brown

    Ellen Brown Well-Known Member
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    I think it is about egos, and denial of insecurity. My belief in an organizing Creator remains, but it seems clear that an evil influence is in most belief systems.
     
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  18. Shiranui117

    Shiranui117 Pronounced Shee-ra-noo-ee
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    I hear Orthodox priests and bishops say we don't know things all the time. Orthodox Christians at the very least seem comfortable with not being able to give an answer to every mystery of the universe.
     
  19. Ellen Brown

    Ellen Brown Well-Known Member
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    That's good, and encouraging. Now I'll have to refresh my memory about why there are Orthodox? If my memory serves me correctly, it is a fairly minor issue.
     
  20. Shiranui117

    Shiranui117 Pronounced Shee-ra-noo-ee
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    So back during the first 1,000 years of Christian history, there were 5 major centers of Christianity: Rome, Constantinople, Alexandria, Antioch and Jerusalem. However, over time, Rome grew more distant from the other 4 centers all located in the East. The Roman Church went through some pretty big changes, such as inventing the idea that the Pope of Rome was the supreme and infallible head of the whole universal Church, inventing Purgatory and Limbo, making changes to their version of the Nicene Creed, forging some documents like the so-called Donation of Constantine which Rome used to enforce power over the kings of Western Europe and try and force the Eastern churches to submit, etc. In the 1200's and during the Scholastic period, Rome also changed how it saw the Trinity, while the Eastern Churches all stuck to the early formulations of the Trinity put forth by the Ecumenical Councils and the Church Fathers.

    Over time, Rome decided to split itself off and go its own way, while the four remaining Eastern Churches all still stuck together as the Orthodox Churches. We eventually grew into Romania and the Slavic lands and now we're making headway into the rest of the world; we even used to have a presence in China until the Communist revolution made Christianity illegal.
     
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