Why Bahai

[oldbadger]

This link can assist

Home | Archives of Bahá'í Persecution in Iran

Put the dates 1950 to 2019 into the search and then use the source UN

You will have 44 documents.

That link allows to choose your source of information.

Regards Tony

Ha ha!
Typical!

That site belongs to the Baha'i international community.

You would need to clearly show an example of the massive injustices perpetrated against Baha'i at any time ......... ever! From a detached source please.

 

[oldbadger]

An example of court justice;

"Dated: 18/6/1372 [9 September 1993]

Court Order Number 508 - [date:] 20/6/1372 [11 September 1993]

File Number: 822/4/71

Administered by: Branch 4 of the Criminal Court 1 of Shahr-e-Rey

Court Order

In the Name of the Most High, in view of the contents of the case file, the police report, medical examiners report, the appeals of the next of kin [T.N.: Literally, the “avengers of blood”, who are entitled to receive blood money] as described in the court proceedings, the confessions of the accused during interrogation and before the court, the manner in which the body was discovered, and other indications and evidence, the alleged crime of one count of kidnapping, resulting in the first degree murder of Rouhollah Qadmi by the defendants, Solayman and Rahman Aynollahi, sons of Hasan, is proven and established. However, in accordance with Article 2, page 519, volume 2 of Tahrirol-Vasileh [a book written by Aytaollah Khomeini as a commentary on Islamic law] by the late imam, and other books of jurisprudence, such as Javaherol-Kalam and others, which state that having the same religion [as the victim] is one of the conditions for redress (the second is equality in religion; a Muslim is not killed for [the murder of] an infidel), in this case, according to the statements of the next of kin and plaintiffs and local people, the victim was a member of the perverse and wayward Baha’i sect, hence the issue of redress [for the victim’s family] is dismissed. In view of Article 21, page 559, volume 12 of Tahrirol-Vasileh, the right to the payment of blood money is also dismissed (no blood money is paid to the infidels except those who pay tribute to Muslims). Therefore, in the matter of execution and the payment of blood money, the defendants are acquitted. However, since the crime committed is unlawful and causes disorder in society, and indeed disrupts the sacred regime of the Islamic Republic, in accordance with Sections 42 and 208, and considering the mitigating factors in Section 22 and Paragraph 18 of the Islamic Penal Code, each defendant is sentenced to eighteen months (a year and a half) imprisonment, taking into account the period of detention each had served before the issuance of the verdict.

Chief Justice of Branch 4 of the Criminal Court 1 of Shahr-e-Rey

Sayyid Mohammad Ghazavi

[stamp:] Certified Copy

[handwritten note at the bottom of the page]

Plaintiff: Mrs. Giti Ghedami, daughter of Rouhollah [contact details]

Regards Tony

How did the victim die.

And you had to go back 25yrs to find a case?

I wonder what the whole background of this incident is.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Ha ha!
Typical!

That site belongs to the Baha'i international community.

You would need to clearly show an example of the massive injustices perpetrated against Baha'i at any time ......... ever! From a detached source please.

How did the victim die.

And you had to go back 25yrs to find a case?

I wonder what the whole background of this incident is.

Shows you did not do the search. The site links all articles from all sources.

I think it is past time to let it go, I will not speak of this with you again.

Regards Tony

 

[oldbadger]

Some people still deny the Jewish holocaust such as Richard Irvine.

Irving marginalised himself in 1988 when, based on his reading of the pseudoscientific[Note 1]Leuchter report, he began to espouse Holocaust denial, specifically denying that Jews were murdered by gassing at the Auschwitz concentration camp.

Irving's reputation as a historian was discredited[Note 2] when, in the course of an unsuccessful libel case he filed against the American historian Deborah Lipstadt and Penguin Books, he was shown to have deliberately misrepresented historical evidence to promote Holocaust denial.[Note 3] The English court found that Irving was an active Holocaust denier, antisemite and racist,[5] who "for his own ideological reasons persistently and deliberately misrepresented and manipulated historical evidence".[5][6] In addition, the court found that Irving's books had distorted the history of Hitler's role in the Holocaust to depict Hitler in a favourable light.

David Irving - Wikipedia

Yes.
Some people do still deny the Jewish Holocaust.

And some deny the other 7 million victims, there being 13 million victims in total, including Gays, Gypsies, Freemasons, Jehovah's Witnesses, Blacks, Eastern Europeans, Ukrainians, Disabled, and more.

I wonder why you mentioned the Holocaust here, though?

 

[oldbadger]

Shows you did not do the search. The site links all articles from all sources.

I think it is past time to let it go, I will not speak of this with you again.

Regards Tony

I found it hard to navigate the site on my mobile, and you did not show a clear and simple description of events. I should not have to do your work on this.

But as so often happens, the claims cannot be substantiated, even for one incident.

 

[oldbadger]

This link can assist

Home | Archives of Bahá'í Persecution in Iran

Put the dates 1950 to 2019 into the search and then use the source UN

You will have 44 documents.

That link allows to choose your source of information.

Regards Tony

That site offered belongs to the Baha'i International Community.
It is a totally loaded agenda.
Where is the UN report?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I found it hard to navigate the site on my mobile,

 

[TransmutingSoul]

That site offered belongs to the Baha'i International Community.
It is a totally loaded agenda.
Where is the UN report?

 

[Vinayaka]

Meditating on this I see there is path to use the pilgrim notes in explanation of your question.

Baha'u'llah has said

"The well-being of mankind, its peace and security, are unattainable unless and until its unity is firmly established. This unity can never be achieved so long as the counsels which the Pen of the Most High hath revealed are suffered to pass unheeded."

Baha'u'llah called for Justice amongst the Muslims first of all and they refused to impart justice. As a result it is foreseen that failure would come back upon them and their own people would suffer injustices on a grand scale.

This is that Pilgrim note a memory of what was talked obout, but not in any context and not an authorised statement

"..At one time less than 1,000,000 Jews were surrounded by 40,000,000 Arabs, yet they kept their freedom in a bloodless revolution. 1,000,000 Arabs fled and 1,000,000 Jews moved in. The Jews suffered almost 2,000 years punishment for three years' persecution of the Christ, who was the Son of God. Therefore, the Moslem people will suffer much more than the Jews did. Baha'u'llah was the Father, Christ the Son. The persecution of Baha'u'llah lasted for over 50 years, therefore that will cause the Moslems to suffer far greater punishment than the Jews and in a very short period of time. The Moslems will be scattered with great suffering..." HAIFA Notes BY CLARA Edge May 16-25 1954

I see it is Karma, a result of failure to implement the Justice Baha'u'llah offered.

You most certainly don't understand karma the way Hindus do. The effects of karma would include the Baha'i being persecuted because of something they did in a past life. Karma isn't karma without reincarnation, and Baha'is don't believe in reincarnation.

Continue on.

 

[oldbadger]

In the 60s there were about 1 million Bahais of which about 90% lived in Iran. This shows that at least hundreds of thousands of Bahais live in Iran today.

There seems to have been 44 claims of mistreatment against Bahais in the last quarter century. Many of these are centred around Bahai insisting on educating children outside of the national curriculum, which would be banned where I live as well, but for Iran this would mean the indoctrination of children against the Iranian government and against Islam. The Bahais call this the suppression of the Bahai community but they seem to be breaking the laws of the country which they live within, a Bahai rule broken in every case.
Let's look at the trials of Solayman and Rahman Aynollahi. There is no link on the internet to this trial, and the Court Order as shown has clearly been edited and adjusted in the report found in the Bahai Internatiional web site. We do not know any clear detail in the case about why the victim Rouhollah Qadmi was kidnapped or how his death came about.
I'm still trying to find evidence of mass injustices committed against hundreds of thousands of Bahai in Iran, and I expect that whilst I have been off-line that some may have been provided for, but at least any suggestion of Bahai genocides seems to have faded away.

 

[Vinayaka]

Some people still deny the Jewish holocaust such as Richard Irvine.

Irving marginalised himself in 1988 when, based on his reading of the pseudoscientific[Note 1]Leuchter report, he began to espouse Holocaust denial, specifically denying that Jews were murdered by gassing at the Auschwitz concentration camp.

Irving's reputation as a historian was discredited[Note 2] when, in the course of an unsuccessful libel case he filed against the American historian Deborah Lipstadt and Penguin Books, he was shown to have deliberately misrepresented historical evidence to promote Holocaust denial.[Note 3] The English court found that Irving was an active Holocaust denier, antisemite and racist,[5] who "for his own ideological reasons persistently and deliberately misrepresented and manipulated historical evidence".[5][6] In addition, the court found that Irving's books had distorted the history of Hitler's role in the Holocaust to depict Hitler in a favourable light.

David Irving - Wikipedia

Still others deny the Islamic invasions of India. Any persecution anywhere will have it's deniers. Europeans deny the attempted genocide of indigenous peoples everywhere. Baha'is deny they proselytise. Still others deny the earth is round. There can be 99.9% agreement on some things, and still we'll have the deniers. Part of the diversity of life i guess, although sometimes it seems right on the edges. no?

 

[oldbadger]

I've just been reading about the Human Rights situation in Iran in 1987-8 which seems to show that not much has been happening in the last 30 years.
Sadly the Reports to the Commission involved are not shown, nor any of the 44 cases mentioned. the link just shows the case covers.

 

[Vinayaka]

In the 60s there were about 1 million Bahais of which about 90% lived in Iran. This shows that at least hundreds of thousands of Bahais live in Iran today.

There seems to have been 44 claims of mistreatment against Bahais in the last quarter century. Many of these are centred around Bahai insisting on educating children outside of the national curriculum, which would be banned where I live as well, but for Iran this would mean the indoctrination of children against the Iranian government and against Islam. The Bahais call this the suppression of the Bahai community but they seem to be breaking the laws of the country which they live within, a Bahai rule broken in every case.
Let's look at the trials of Solayman and Rahman Aynollahi. There is no link on the internet to this trial, and the Court Order as shown has clearly been edited and adjusted in the report found in the Bahai Internatiional web site. We do not know any clear detail in the case about why the victim Rouhollah Qadmi was kidnapped or how his death came about.
I'm still trying to find evidence of mass injustices committed against hundreds of thousands of Bahai in Iran, and I expect that whilst I have been off-line that some may have been provided for, but at least any suggestion of Bahai genocides seems to have faded away.

Two sides to every story. In India the Christians complain wide and far about persecution against them, when they walk right into villages, into families, and use every single underhanded tactic available to them just to win converts.

 

[oldbadger]

View attachment 33149 View attachment 33150 View attachment 33151

Just what are you trying to show here?? !!
I cannot travel through the link!

Now please be so good as to provide any one case that you think is an example of the horrific treatment of hundreds of thousands of Iranian Bahais.
Or any, for that matter.
Then we'll see....

 

[oldbadger]

Two sides to every story. In India the Christians complain wide and far about persecution against them, when they walk right into villages, into families, and use every single underhanded tactic available to them just to win converts.

Yes, I have read about this before.
And just now I noticed articles about how Christians have mistreated Zoroastrian communities, although I don't know which country that was in.

The genocide of the North American Indian tribes has got to feature pretty highly in the list. It took an English barrister to nail Herman Goering's convictions at the Nuremberg trials...... every time the US lawyers tried to question him he kept pointing out various aspects of US history, or so I've seen and heard on history programs in the past.

 

[oldbadger]

OK folks..... let's look at Iran's Human Right Watch report for 2017.
Yep.... I personally would not go to Iran on a Bird watching holiday, or with any camera or spotting equipment...... Hell.... I wouldn't go to Iran! Iran is a tough country with its back to the wall, which might be why it is so tough. My garden is a much more friendly place to snooze in, whilst on holiday.

But here I was looking for Bahai HR reports. The headings just go on and on, and I have featured a very few until we get to the oppression of religious movements section.
79 Bahais are in prison although we don't know what for. 79 out of hundreds of thousands doesn't look high for any community...?
Iran is also ....... tough on Sunni Muslims and Azeri, Kurdish, Arab, and Baluch ethnic minorities
37 Christians have been imprisoned for proselytising.
And so.... for the 100s of thousands of Bahais living in Iran, life doesn't seem to be much more risky than for the rest of the population.

World Report 2019: Rights Trends in Iran
Human Rights Watch
Iranians participated in numerous protests across the country .........at least 30 people, including security forces, have been killed during the protests,

Dervishes
On February 19 and 20, several media reported that clashes ....... a Muslim minority group, had left several dozen Dervishes severely injured and four law enforcement agents dead......

Web sites blocked
Facebook and Twitter remain blocked, along with hundreds of other websites.

Death Sentences
According to rights groups, Iran executed at least 225 as of November 9, compared to 507 in 2017.

Minors executed once they are adults
The judiciary also executed at least five individuals who were sentenced to death for crimes they allegedly committed as children.

Treason?
On September 8, authorities executed Zanyar and Loghman Moradi, and Ramin Hossein Panahi, ......... convicted in unfair trials of participating in armed struggle against the government.

Harsh sentences
Iranian law ................. flogging for more than 100 offenses,
and on..... and on....

And eventually:-
Treatment of Religious Minorities
Iranian law denies freedom of religion to Baha’is and discriminates against them. At least 79 Baha’is were held in Iran’s prisons as of November 2018. Iranian authorities also systematically refuse to allow Baha’is to register at public universities because of their faith.
The government also discriminates against ......... Sunni Muslims, and restricts cultural and political activities among the country’s Azeri, Kurdish, Arab, and Baluch ethnic minorities.
.......... Iran has sentenced 37 Christians who converted from Muslim backgrounds to imprisonment for “missionary work.”

 

[oldbadger]

Two sides to every story. In India the Christians complain wide and far about persecution against them, when they walk right into villages, into families, and use every single underhanded tactic available to them just to win converts.

I've just posted up a small part of the Human Rights Watch for 2017.
Strangely I didn't see the case of the English/Iranian Teacher jailed for spying.
Sunni Muslims, Bahais and Christians have all been held in prison during 2017 and several other ethnic communities have had hazzle during that year.

But Bahai doesn't stand out as a special case of hazzle in a Shia Islam Theocracy.

 

[oldbadger]

Just go to Human Rights Watch website and pick a year......

 

[Vinayaka]

Just go to Human Rights Watch website and pick a year......

That's a comprehensive site, and no country is immune. But there on RF, concerning Baha'i, I see it as 'close to home' syndrome, where the closer anything is to you emotionally, physically, or otherwise, the more you notice it. It's a natural outcome of the human condition.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

You most certainly don't understand karma the way Hindus do. The effects of karma would include the Baha'i being persecuted because of something they did in a past life. Karma isn't karma without reincarnation, and Baha'is don't believe in reincarnation.

Continue on.

Do you mean that all Hindu believe as you do?

Regards Tony