Why Bahai

[oldbadger]

That's a comprehensive site, and no country is immune. But there on RF, concerning Baha'i, I see it as 'close to home' syndrome, where the closer anything is to you emotionally, physically, or otherwise, the more you notice it. It's a natural outcome of the human condition.

Syndrome?
There's a flippin' list of 'em!
It could have been you that one Bahai was mentioning, in suggesting that an RF member went to an anti-Bahai website and brought back a member to RF. If I'm right then even bringing the 'wrong' people to RF is a kind of twisted strategy. That is a few pages back, now.

Challenge Bahai face on and it throws personal rhetoric back, or tries to end communication on the subject.

In relation to Iran and past Bahai claims of mass killings (of Bahais) and such rot, even Sunni Muslims, Christians and many other groups get a bad time if they do not comply with the country's strict laws. Ask a Bahai to actually write down a real event where 'Bahai' was badly treated and you get a jumbled account from quarter century back produced by a Bahai website. And they just don't get it, can't seem to see it, that if Bahai should grow that it would most definitely turn in to Big Brother, much worse than Orwell's 1984.

 

[firedragon]

The short explanation

Al-Baqara 256 Al-Baqara 256 - Wikipedia

If that was followed, the world would be a different world.

Regards Tony

Thanks. I know that people dont follow the scripture.

My question was though if you had any theological significance based one the persecution like say the Shi's where they have veneration and rituals based on their perceived persecutions of ancestors or early important persons like Hassan, Ali and Hussain.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Thanks. I know that people dont follow the scripture.

My question was though if you had any theological significance based one the persecution like say the Shi's where they have veneration and rituals based on their perceived persecutions of ancestors or early important persons like Hassan, Ali and Hussain.

I more than likely do not understand what you are asking. I will attempt an answer.

In Baha'i theology in each age there is a Messenger, it is the return of the Attributes we see. What also returns is the actions of those that reject the Message. The Kitab-i-Iqan explains this concept in detail.

There is no ritual in the Baha'i Faith apart from some Obligatory Prayers and Fast.

Do you have a specific example?

Regards Tony

 

[firedragon]

I more than likely do not understand what you are asking. I will attempt an answer.

In Baha'i theology in each age there is a Messenger, it is the return of the Attributes we see. What also returns is the actions of those that reject the Message. The Kitab-i-Iqan explains this concept in detail.

There is no ritual in the Baha'i Faith apart from some Obligatory Prayers and Fast.

Do you have a specific example?

Regards Tony

I think I understand. So what you are saying is that the persecution of early Bahai's, including Shirazi and Bahaullah and whoever others who were is only a memory or something you remember because its important to remember, but its not a religious matter that you venerate or have ritualistic actions or prayers around it. Thats what I understand from you.

You see Muslims globally (though this is also considered a high form of shirk) still have functions, prayers and ritualistic events in remembrance of early martyrs like Ali, Hussain etc. Even Sunni Muslims have Mowlidh or events where they gather around and sing syndicated songs of praise and lamentations of these figures of history. Now some Sunni's (I mention Sunni's because Shia's do this often and Sunni's doing this is a big deal) have Hussain Mawlid during a remembrance event of someones death. Like anyones, father, grandparents etc.

Nevertheless I think you have clarified unless you have something to add. Thank you very much. I am asking because I am actually not good friends with many Bahai's or I dont know a Bahai community closely. Wherever I have travelled I have met and associated all kinds of other people who belong to many religions but not Bahai's. What I am saying is I dont know any Bahai family intimately. So I dont know what goes on in the religious side of their lives. I can only read books. Its easier and more efficient to ask in order to understand the personal beliefs of a religious person about their religion.

Peace.

 

[Vinayaka]

Do you mean that all Hindu believe as you do?

Regards Tony

Of course not, but karma is pretty consistent amongst all Hindus. Slight variations, sure.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

is that the persecution of early Bahai's, including Shirazi and Bahaullah and whoever others who were is only a memory or something you remember because its important to remember, but its not a religious matter that you venerate or have ritualistic actions or prayers around it. Thats what I understand from you.

That is not my understanding. There are many prayers I can say for all the Martyrs and persecuted, that is very important to me. There are no set rituals as how to do this. It is my choice, but many many prayers have been revealed that we can use.

I went to bed to read a book called 'Summons of the Lord of Hosts' last night and I opened it to read at a place where I immediately thought the passages may answer your question. I will give you a couple of short quotes with a link and reference to find it if it is applicable.

Baha'u'llah has offered trials and tribulations are part of faith, it will always be so;

"47 Know ye that trials and tribulations have, from time immemorial, been the lot of the chosen Ones of God and His beloved, and such of His servants as are detached from all else but Him, they whom neither merchandise nor traffic beguile from the remembrance of the Almighty, they that speak not till He hath spoken, and act according to His commandment. Such is God’s method carried into effect of old, and such will it remain in the future. Blessed are the steadfastly enduring, they that are patient under ills and hardships, who lament not over anything that befalleth them, and who tread the path of resignation.(The Summons of the Lord of Hosts) www.bahai.org/r/655967186

Then Baha'u'llah tells us how the tribulations are repeated;

"48That which hath befallen Us hath been witnessed before. Ours is not the first goblet dashed to the ground in the lands of Islám, nor is this the first time that such schemers have intrigued against the beloved of the Lord. The tribulations We have sustained are like unto the trials endured aforetime by Imám Ḥusayn. For he was approached by messengers from malicious and evil-hearted plotters, inviting him to come forth from the city; yet when he came unto them, accompanied by his kindred, they rose up against him with all their might, until at last they slew him, slaughtered his sons and his brothers, and took captive the remainder of his family. So did it come to pass in an earlier age, and God, verily, is a witness unto My words. Of his lineage there survived none, whether young or old, save his son ‘Alí al-Awsat, known as Zaynu’l-‘Ábidín."

Then Baha'u'llah tells us that this path is the longing of any true beleiver;

" 49Behold then, O heedless ones, how brightly the fire of the love of God blazed aforetime in the heart of Ḥusayn, if ye be of them that ponder! So intense grew its flame that fervour and longing at last seized the reins of patience from his grasp, and the love of Him Who is the All-Compelling so enraptured his heart that he surrendered his soul, his spirit, his substance, and his all in the path of God, the Lord of the worlds. By God! Sweeter was this in his sight than the empire of earth and heaven. For the true lover desireth naught save reunion with his beloved and the seeker hath no goal but to attain unto the object of his quest. Their hearts long for reunion even as the body yearneth for the spirit, nay greater indeed is their longing, could ye but perceive it!"

Then it goes own to say it is the wish of Baha'u'llah to achieve this and that it is up to us if we also long for and choose this path.

"50Say: That same fire now blazeth in Mine own breast, and My wish is that this Ḥusayn may lay down His life in like manner, in the hope of attaining unto so august and sublime a station, that station wherein the servant dieth to himself and liveth in God, the Almighty, the Exalted, the Great. Were I to disclose unto you the mysteries which God hath enshrined therein, ye would, of a truth, offer up your lives in His path, renounce your riches, and forsake all that ye possess, that ye might attain this transcendent and all-glorious station. God, however, hath veiled your hearts and obscured your eyes, lest ye should apprehend His mysteries and be made aware of their meaning..... "

Súriy-i-Mulúk The Summons of the Lord of Hosts | Bahá’í Reference Library (The numbers are the paragraph references)

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Of course not, but karma is pretty consistent amongst all Hindus. Slight variations, sure.

I do see there would be many aspects of Karma to consider.

As you know, our view is we get one life in this world. I see All our thoughts and actions, in this state of being, has effects and reprocussions throughout all the world's of God and our life yet to come.

What may be of interest is that I have read (need to confirm if interested) that Baha'u'llah has said our next life is not separate from this world, much like it surrounds us and is closer than our life veins, that it is a transition from this state of being into another.

Regards Tony

 

[firedragon]

That is not my understanding. There are many prayers I can say for all the Martyrs and persecuted, that is very important to me. There are no set rituals as how to do this. It is my choice, but many many prayers have been revealed that we can use.

I went to bed to read a book called 'Summons of the Lord of Hosts' last night and I opened it to read at a place where I immediately thought the passages may answer your question. I will give you a couple of short quotes with a link and reference to find it if it is applicable.

Baha'u'llah has offered trials and tribulations are part of faith, it will always be so;

"47 Know ye that trials and tribulations have, from time immemorial, been the lot of the chosen Ones of God and His beloved, and such of His servants as are detached from all else but Him, they whom neither merchandise nor traffic beguile from the remembrance of the Almighty, they that speak not till He hath spoken, and act according to His commandment. Such is God’s method carried into effect of old, and such will it remain in the future. Blessed are the steadfastly enduring, they that are patient under ills and hardships, who lament not over anything that befalleth them, and who tread the path of resignation.(The Summons of the Lord of Hosts) www.bahai.org/r/655967186

Then Baha'u'llah tells us how the tribulations are repeated;

"48That which hath befallen Us hath been witnessed before. Ours is not the first goblet dashed to the ground in the lands of Islám, nor is this the first time that such schemers have intrigued against the beloved of the Lord. The tribulations We have sustained are like unto the trials endured aforetime by Imám Ḥusayn. For he was approached by messengers from malicious and evil-hearted plotters, inviting him to come forth from the city; yet when he came unto them, accompanied by his kindred, they rose up against him with all their might, until at last they slew him, slaughtered his sons and his brothers, and took captive the remainder of his family. So did it come to pass in an earlier age, and God, verily, is a witness unto My words. Of his lineage there survived none, whether young or old, save his son ‘Alí al-Awsat, known as Zaynu’l-‘Ábidín."

Then Baha'u'llah tells us that this path is the longing of any true beleiver;

" 49Behold then, O heedless ones, how brightly the fire of the love of God blazed aforetime in the heart of Ḥusayn, if ye be of them that ponder! So intense grew its flame that fervour and longing at last seized the reins of patience from his grasp, and the love of Him Who is the All-Compelling so enraptured his heart that he surrendered his soul, his spirit, his substance, and his all in the path of God, the Lord of the worlds. By God! Sweeter was this in his sight than the empire of earth and heaven. For the true lover desireth naught save reunion with his beloved and the seeker hath no goal but to attain unto the object of his quest. Their hearts long for reunion even as the body yearneth for the spirit, nay greater indeed is their longing, could ye but perceive it!"

Then it goes own to say it is the wish of Baha'u'llah to achieve this and that it is up to us if we also long for and choose this path.

"50Say: That same fire now blazeth in Mine own breast, and My wish is that this Ḥusayn may lay down His life in like manner, in the hope of attaining unto so august and sublime a station, that station wherein the servant dieth to himself and liveth in God, the Almighty, the Exalted, the Great. Were I to disclose unto you the mysteries which God hath enshrined therein, ye would, of a truth, offer up your lives in His path, renounce your riches, and forsake all that ye possess, that ye might attain this transcendent and all-glorious station. God, however, hath veiled your hearts and obscured your eyes, lest ye should apprehend His mysteries and be made aware of their meaning..... "

Súriy-i-Mulúk The Summons of the Lord of Hosts | Bahá’í Reference Library (The numbers are the paragraph references)

Regards Tony

Thanks for the response brother. Really appreciate it. Have a great day.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Thanks for the response brother. Really appreciate it. Have a great day.

You too

Peace

Regards Tony

 

[Sen McGlinn]

... Ask a Bahai to actually write down a real event where 'Bahai' was badly treated and you get a jumbled account from quarter century back produced by a Bahai website.

You seem to have been asking uninformed Bahais ! My website has weekly updates on Bahais who are badly treated. The most recent report is a Bahai released after serving 4 years in prison for teaching IT engineering to young Bahais.
Sen's daily

and my facebook page has a wider range of stories about the Bahai community. Follow it to get the updates, all guaranteed less than 25 years old

 

[oldbadger]

You seem to have been asking uninformed Bahais ! My website has weekly updates on Bahais who are badly treated. The most recent report is a Bahai released after serving 4 years in prison for teaching IT engineering to young Bahais.
Sen's daily

and my facebook page has a wider range of stories about the Bahai community. Follow it to get the updates, all guaranteed less than 25 years old

Hello Sen!
I really should visit your web site more often....... I have put Sen's daily in to my directory.
The recently convicted Bahai........ I'm guessing 'Iran'?
Sen, I read the Press-Watch report in your page and it looks as if the Iranian Guards found a whole bunch of Bahais together, all learning about 'engineering'? Do you realise what would have happenedv if they had been Christians, or a bunch of Airplane buffs from England, or just about any 'non Shia Muslim' group?
There are strict rules in Iran about the size of meetings. Just now we hear about holiday makers getting nicked because they flew a drone up to take pics of a mountain, etc.
Just now some World Leaders are making some very very nasty decisions about Iran, and trying to urge the rest of the World to get very militarily aggressive with Iran. Under these circumstances it would be a very bright idea to just obey the bloomin' laws of that land and not irritate the Government there. That goes for idiots with drones, other religions that insist on proselytizing, folks who hold unlawful sized meetings, etc etc.
Just now it's Iran who is being unfairly confronted, and the United Natiions (which Bahais tend to like) takes this position and wants to support Iran, just now.

 

[firedragon]

@adrian009 @Tony Bristow-Stagg @Sen McGlinn

I'm curious. Is there a quotation by the Bab or Bahaullah, in their direct literature that they or one of them is the Mahdhi mentioned in the Islamic ahadith? Grateful.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

@adrian009 @Tony Bristow-Stagg @Sen McGlinn

I'm curious. Is there a quotation by the Bab or Bahaullah, in their direct literature that they or one of them is the Mahdhi mentioned in the Islamic ahadith? Grateful.

I am on my phone hard to find references. I would say yes, but not sure. I know at the Bab pilgrimage to Mecca where he made his declaration at the black stone, it hints as such;

"On the last day of His pilgrimage to Mecca, the Bab met Mirza Muhit-i-Kirmani. He stood facing the Black Stone, when the Bab approached him and, taking his hand in His, addressed him in these words: "O Muhit! You regard yourself as one of the most outstanding figures of the shaykhi community and a distinguished exponent of its teachings. In your heart you even claim to be one of the direct successors and rightful inheritors of those twin great Lights, those Stars that have heralded the morn of Divine guidance. Behold, we are both now standing within this most sacred shrine. Within its hallowed precincts, He whose Spirit dwells in this place can cause Truth immediately to be known and distinguished from falsehood, and righteousness from error. Verily I declare, none besides Me in this day, whether in the East or in the West, can claim to be the Gate that leads men to the knowledge of God. My proof is none other than that proof whereby the truth of the Prophet Muhammad was established. Ask Me whatsoever you please; now, at this very moment, I pledge Myself to reveal such verses as can demonstrate the truth of My mission. You must choose either to submit yourself unreservedly to My Cause or to repudiate it entirely. You have no other alternative. If you choose to reject My message, I will not let go your hand until you pledge your word to declare publicly your repudiation... "

http://www.bahai-library.com/books/dawnbreakers/chapters/7.html

At the trial resulting from this, the Bab said

“I am, I am, the promised One! I am the One whose name you have for a thousand years invoked, at whose mention you have risen, whose advent you have longed to witness, and the hour of whose Revelation you have prayed God to hasten.” – the Bab

Regards Tony

 

[Dawnofhope]

@adrian009 @Tony Bristow-Stagg @Sen McGlinn

I'm curious. Is there a quotation by the Bab or Bahaullah, in their direct literature that they or one of them is the Mahdhi mentioned in the Islamic ahadith? Grateful.

The Mahdi applies to the Bab. Bahá’u’lláh is the Return of Christ. The Dawn Breakers or Nabil’s narrative makes this claim clear. This work is considered one of the most important books to read along with the Kitab-i-Iqan and Some Answered Questions for anyone who wants to understand the Baha’i Faith. I’m not aware of a direct reference where the Bab claims to be the Madhi but then most of His works are yet to be translated into English.

 

[firedragon]

The Mahdi applies to the Bab. Bahá’u’lláh is the Return of Christ. The Dawn Breakers or Nabil’s narrative makes this claim clear. This work is considered one of the most important books to read along with the Kitab-i-Iqan and Some Answered Questions for anyone who wants to understand the Baha’i Faith. I’m not aware of a direct reference where the Bab claims to be the Madhi but then most of His works are yet to be translated into English.

Ah. Sorry, I didn't understand that Bab was Mahdi and Bahaullah was the Christ. Thanks.

Did Bab claim to be the Mahdi or manifestation of God?

 

[Dawnofhope]

Ah. Sorry, I didn't understand that Bab was Mahdi and Bahaullah was the Christ. Thanks.

Did Bab claim to be the Mahdi or manifestation of God?

The Bab claimed to be the Mahdi or promised Qaim. During the early nineteenth century in Persia, now Iran, there was intense Messianic expectation. One movement led by Shaykh Ahmad prepared their followers.

Shaykh Ahmad's teachings diverged from the Usulischool on key issues related to eschatology, the role of the ulama, and the proper interpretation of the mystical hadith of the Twelve Imams. These divergences resulted in accusations of heresy from orthodox members of the Shia ulama, and instances of persecution against Ahsá'í and his followers occurred during and after his lifetime.

Today, Shaykhí populations retain a minority following in Iran and Iraq. After the death of Shaykh Ahmad's successor, Kazim Rashti, many Shaykhís converted to Bábism and the Bahá'í Faith; the two Shaykhí leaders continue to be highly regarded by Bahá’ís, being seen as spiritual forerunners to that religion.

Shaykh Ahmad - Wikipedia

Kazim Rashi and the successor to Shaykh Ahmad was a Mullah who, after study of the Islamic writings told his students about the coming of the Mahdi and the "Masih" (the return of Christ) and taught them how to recognize them. After his death in 1843, many of his students spread out around Asia, Europe and Africa for the search.

Upon his death he was buried near the tomb of Imam Husayn in Karbala.

Kazim Rashti - Wikipedia

On the death of Siyyid Kazim on 31 December 1843, some Shaykhis went on to become Babis, some of whom later became Bahais, and the rest split into three factions. It is reported that before dying, instead of appointing a successor, he sent his disciples out to find the Promised One. One of his most noted followers, Mullá Husayn said:

In 1844 Mullá Husayn, after meeting the Siyyid `Alí-Muhammad (the Báb) in Shiraz accepted him as the Mahdi.

Kazim Rashti - Wikipedia

An account of Mulla Hasayn’s meeting with the Bab along with an account of his search can be found in the Dawn Breakers:

Bahá'í Reference Library - The Dawn-Breakers: Nabíl’s Narrative of the Early Days of the Bahá’í Revelation, Pages 47-97

 

[firedragon]

The Bab claimed to be the Mahdi or promised Qaim. During the early nineteenth century in Persia, now Iran, there was intense Messianic expectation. One movement led by Shaykh Ahmad prepared their followers.

Shaykh Ahmad's teachings diverged from the Usulischool on key issues related to eschatology, the role of the ulama, and the proper interpretation of the mystical hadith of the Twelve Imams. These divergences resulted in accusations of heresy from orthodox members of the Shia ulama, and instances of persecution against Ahsá'í and his followers occurred during and after his lifetime.

Today, Shaykhí populations retain a minority following in Iran and Iraq. After the death of Shaykh Ahmad's successor, Kazim Rashti, many Shaykhís converted to Bábism and the Bahá'í Faith; the two Shaykhí leaders continue to be highly regarded by Bahá’ís, being seen as spiritual forerunners to that religion.

Shaykh Ahmad - Wikipedia

Kazim Rashi and the successor to Shaykh Ahmad was a Mullah who, after study of the Islamic writings told his students about the coming of the Mahdi and the "Masih" (the return of Christ) and taught them how to recognize them. After his death in 1843, many of his students spread out around Asia, Europe and Africa for the search.

Upon his death he was buried near the tomb of Imam Husayn in Karbala.

Kazim Rashti - Wikipedia

On the death of Siyyid Kazim on 31 December 1843, some Shaykhis went on to become Babis, some of whom later became Bahais, and the rest split into three factions. It is reported that before dying, instead of appointing a successor, he sent his disciples out to find the Promised One. One of his most noted followers, Mullá Husayn said:

In 1844 Mullá Husayn, after meeting the Siyyid `Alí-Muhammad (the Báb) in Shiraz accepted him as the Mahdi.

Kazim Rashti - Wikipedia

An account of Mulla Hasayn’s meeting with the Bab along with an account of his search can be found in the Dawn Breakers:

Bahá'í Reference Library - The Dawn-Breakers: Nabíl’s Narrative of the Early Days of the Bahá’í Revelation, Pages 47-97

Thanks. I will read each of the sources you presented for the respected gentlemen in it. I presume they must be in his list of apostles.

Nevertheless, that did not answer my question brother. I asked if Bab claimed to be the Mahdi or a manifestation of God himself. Or was that both?

 

[Dawnofhope]

Thanks. I will read each of the sources you presented for the respected gentlemen in it. I presume they must be in his list of apostles.

Nevertheless, that did not answer my question brother. I asked if Bab claimed to be the Mahdi or a manifestation of God himself. Or was that both?

The material provided, particularly from Nabil’s narrative or the Dawn Breakers makes it clear the Bab claimed to be the Madhi.

The Bab makes allusions to being a Manifestation of God in a tablet to Muhammad Shah:

By My life! But for the obligation to acknowledge the Cause of Him Who is the Testimony of God … I would not have announced this unto thee… All the keys of heaven God hath chosen to place on My right hand, and all the keys of hell on My left…

I am the Primal Point from which have been generated all created things. I am the Countenance of God Whose splendour can never be obscured, the Light of God Whose radiance can never fade. Whoso recognizeth Me, assurance and all good are in store for him, and whoso faileth to recognize Me, infernal fire and all evil await him…

I swear by God, the Peerless, the Incomparable, the True One: for no other reason hath He—the supreme Testimony of God—invested Me with clear signs and tokens than that all men may be enabled to submit to His Cause.

Bahá'í Reference Library - Selections From the Writings of the Báb, Pages 11-17

 

[firedragon]

The material provided, particularly from Nabil’s narrative or the Dawn Breakers makes it clear the Bab claimed to be the Madhi.

The Bab makes allusions to being a Manifestation of God in a tablet to Muhammad Shah:

By My life! But for the obligation to acknowledge the Cause of Him Who is the Testimony of God … I would not have announced this unto thee… All the keys of heaven God hath chosen to place on My right hand, and all the keys of hell on My left…

I am the Primal Point from which have been generated all created things. I am the Countenance of God Whose splendour can never be obscured, the Light of God Whose radiance can never fade. Whoso recognizeth Me, assurance and all good are in store for him, and whoso faileth to recognize Me, infernal fire and all evil await him…

I swear by God, the Peerless, the Incomparable, the True One: for no other reason hath He—the supreme Testimony of God—invested Me with clear signs and tokens than that all men may be enabled to submit to His Cause.

Bahá'í Reference Library - Selections From the Writings of the Báb, Pages 11-17

Okay. I understand. Thanks a lot.

 

[Sen McGlinn]

Hello Sen!
I really should visit your web site more often....... I have put Sen's daily in to my directory.
The recently convicted Bahai........ I'm guessing 'Iran'?
Sen, I read the Press-Watch report in your page and it looks as if the Iranian Guards found a whole bunch of Bahais together, all learning about 'engineering'? Do you realise what would have happenedv if they had been Christians, or a bunch of Airplane buffs from England, or just about any 'non Shia Muslim' group?
There are strict rules in Iran about the size of meetings. Just now we hear about holiday makers getting nicked because they flew a drone up to take pics of a mountain, etc.
Just now some World Leaders are making some very very nasty decisions about Iran, and trying to urge the rest of the World to get very militarily aggressive with Iran. Under these circumstances it would be a very bright idea to just obey the bloomin' laws of that land and not irritate the Government there. That goes for idiots with drones, other religions that insist on proselytizing, folks who hold unlawful sized meetings, etc etc.
Just now it's Iran who is being unfairly confronted, and the United Natiions (which Bahais tend to like) takes this position and
wants to support Iran, just now.

But Bahais do not "insist on proselytizing" . It is the judiciary who says that just saying "yes" if asked "are you a Bahai" is "propagada and worthy of expulsion from school or a year in prison. In all the years i've done these reports, I do not think there has been a single case of actual propaganda . If the security forces stopped asking, no Bahai would need to confess "I am" . Often Bahais avoid direct answers to the question, but if they have Bahai pcitures or books in their homes, they go to prison anyway.