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Why Bahai

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
But Bahais do not "insist on proselytizing" . It is the judiciary who says that just saying "yes" if asked "are you a Bahai" is "propagada and worthy of expulsion from school or a year in prison. In all the years i've done these reports, I do not think there has been a single case of actual propaganda . If the security forces stopped asking, no Bahai would need to confess "I am" . Often Bahais avoid direct answers to the question, but if they have Bahai pcitures or books in their homes, they go to prison anyway.
Could we see any examples of that, Sen?

Out of the hundreds of thousands of Bahais living in Iran, how many got thrown in prison etc this year because they are Bahais?
Why do police raid Bahai homes, actually? Is it that unlawfully large meetings are taking place?
I expect that a % of Bahais in Iranian prisons have actually committed criminal offences. When I had contact with Bahai in the 70's/80's that was true for the UK, anyway.

Iran is a Shia Islamic country and many surrounding countries are its enemies. Folks who live in Iran need to take very careful notice of all laws there.

Jewish Iranians are reported to feel more safe in Iran than those in France, maybe they just keep to the laws?
But if you have any clear reports of substance, please show some.
 

Sen McGlinn

Member
Could we see any examples of that, Sen?

Out of the hundreds of thousands of Bahais living in Iran, how many got thrown in prison etc this year because they are Bahais?
Why do police raid Bahai homes, actually? Is it that unlawfully large meetings are taking place?
I expect that a % of Bahais in Iranian prisons have actually committed criminal offences. When I had contact with Bahai in the 70's/80's that was true for the UK, anyway.

Iran is a Shia Islamic country and many surrounding countries are its enemies. Folks who live in Iran need to take very careful notice of all laws there.

Jewish Iranians are reported to feel more safe in Iran than those in France, maybe they just keep to the laws?
But if you have any clear reports of substance, please show some.

The security forces raid Bahai homes to get evidence that the occupants are Bahais. They seize Bahai books and pictures of Abdu'l-Baha and that sort of thing, and phones and computers. The phones in particular are used to identify other Bahais, or Muslims who have contacts with Bahais.
The rules about how many Bahais can be in the same place are not written and vary from place to place: an old rule of thumb used to be nine adults was OK but under present conditions it's probably 3 or 4. Naturally the Bahais try to figure out what the rules are and to follow them. However the raids and arrests do not particularly target meetings: quite often there is nobody home and the place is searched and the resident is summoned to appear later.
The number imprisoned this year is probably 40 to 60 that I have heard about, and I think I hear about 75% of cases. It does happen that I hear someone has been released when I did not know they had been imprisoned.
The Minister of Education recently said on the record that if a child was asked whether they were Bahai, and said "yes", this was propaganda and the child must be excluded from school. If the authorities would accept a don't ask don't tell arrangement, life would be simpler: the Bahais could simply keep a low profile. But the authorities deliberately try to identify Bahais and all the people they have contact with, and keep a register. This was set out in a memo to the security forces that leaked about 10 years ago (not the same memo as the one that said Bahais should be excluded from tertiary education and employment -- that was years earlier).
You can find plentiful examples on my "Sen's Daily" blog, most of them are not drawn from Baha'i sources. You can also read overviews prepared by the UN rapporteur.
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
Do you follow an idea or directive from the Bahai"authorities" if the words and intent of the idea the present goes against your innate and learned sense of morality? Is there a limit to your subservience?

I have yet to understand what Bahai believe as far as these religious laws for this time and age or how exactly they are new and improved.

Can you please name and explain ten of these new updated laws that, if we all ditch our own beliefs and voluntairliy follow the The Prophet in the future, will save all of us animals?

If this is too many questions to answer in one post, please feel free to use as many pages as necessary. Thanks.
"Can you please name and explain ten of these new updated laws "

A good question.

Regards
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
The security forces raid Bahai homes to get evidence that the occupants are Bahais. They seize Bahai books and pictures of Abdu'l-Baha and that sort of thing, and phones and computers. The phones in particular are used to identify other Bahais, or Muslims who have contacts with Bahais.
The rules about how many Bahais can be in the same place are not written and vary from place to place: an old rule of thumb used to be nine adults was OK but under present conditions it's probably 3 or 4. Naturally the Bahais try to figure out what the rules are and to follow them. However the raids and arrests do not particularly target meetings: quite often there is nobody home and the place is searched and the resident is summoned to appear later.
The number imprisoned this year is probably 40 to 60 that I have heard about, and I think I hear about 75% of cases. It does happen that I hear someone has been released when I did not know they had been imprisoned.
The Minister of Education recently said on the record that if a child was asked whether they were Bahai, and said "yes", this was propaganda and the child must be excluded from school. If the authorities would accept a don't ask don't tell arrangement, life would be simpler: the Bahais could simply keep a low profile. But the authorities deliberately try to identify Bahais and all the people they have contact with, and keep a register. This was set out in a memo to the security forces that leaked about 10 years ago (not the same memo as the one that said Bahais should be excluded from tertiary education and employment -- that was years earlier).
You can find plentiful examples on my "Sen's Daily" blog, most of them are not drawn from Baha'i sources. You can also read overviews prepared by the UN rapporteur.

Thanks for your reply.
Sen....... this is what we see, many claims about how Bahais are mistreated, and you tell us that 40-60 Bahais are/were imprisoned during this year.

How many Bahais are in Iran? 100,000? 200,000?
Are Bahais ever convicted of criminal offences in Iran (apart from being Bahais) ?
Are most people in Iran subjected to house searches and thefts during such searches?
Are Christians treated any differently in Iran from, say, Bahais?

I expect that Bahais need to be careful if they live in a Shia Islamic Theocracy, but reports of 40-50 Bahais being jailed this year out of hundreds of thousands is not strong evidence that Bahais in Iran live in terror.
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Do you follow an idea or directive from the Bahai"authorities" if the words and intent of the idea the present goes against your innate and learned sense of morality? Is there a limit to your subservience?

I have yet to understand what Bahai believe as far as these religious laws for this time and age or how exactly they are new and improved.

Can you please name and explain ten of these new updated laws that, if we all ditch our own beliefs and voluntairliy follow the The Prophet in the future, will save all of us animals?

If this is too many questions to answer in one post, please feel free to use as many pages as necessary. Thanks.

"Can you please name and explain ten of these new updated laws " A good question. Regards

The laws were given to uphold the principals that we need to live by now. Humanity needs to find that we are but one planet and one people.

So the Baha'i Laws give us the foundation for these principles to unfold;

• The oneness of mankind.

A main teaching of Baha'u'llah supported by guidance as to how to acheive that oneness.

• Universal peace upheld by a world government.

The abolition of Holy War is a core Law in the Baha'i Faith. The way to build the Lesser Peace by the Governments of the world has been given.

• Independent investigation of truth.

It is against the law for a Baha'i to proselytize and it is the responsibility of each person to investigate truth using both sound reason and scientific thought.

• The common foundation of all religions.

The major teaching of Baha'u'llah is that God is one and is the foundation of all the Worlds Faiths.

• The essential harmony of science and religion.

This also a core teaching and is self explanatory I see. Science without religion bends towards materialism. Faith without science becomes superstition.

• Equality of men and women.

We are to look at each others a equal in the eyes of God, Equality is not sameness, it is equal opportunity.

• Elimination of prejudice of all kinds.

Speaks for itself and backed strongly by key laws given by Baha'u'llah.

• Universal compulsory education.

Education for all is law. It is also Law that if funds are short the parents should give the female priority of education. The community should cover the education of those that can not be funded by parents.

• A spiritual solution to the economic problem.

This is so needed, it really does not need much explanation. I see it will be a voluntary dispersal of wealth by those that have more than they need, given to those that do not have the basics of life.

• A universal auxiliary language.

This will be taught alongside the native tongue. Communication is one of the greatest barriers to the Unity of Humanity and it will come about around the same time humanity finds its unity.

Regards Tony
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
The laws were given to uphold the principals that we need to live by now. Humanity needs to find that we are but one planet and one people.

So the Baha'i Laws give us the foundation for these principles to unfold;

• The oneness of mankind.

A main teaching of Baha'u'llah supported by guidance as to how to acheive that oneness.

• Universal peace upheld by a world government.

The abolition of Holy War is a core Law in the Baha'i Faith. The way to build the Lesser Peace by the Governments of the world has been given.

• Independent investigation of truth.

It is against the law for a Baha'i to proselytize and it is the responsibility of each person to investigate truth using both sound reason and scientific thought.

• The common foundation of all religions.

The major teaching of Baha'u'llah is that God is one and is the foundation of all the Worlds Faiths.

• The essential harmony of science and religion.

This also a core teaching and is self explanatory I see. Science without religion bends towards materialism. Faith without science becomes superstition.

• Equality of men and women.

We are to look at each others a equal in the eyes of God, Equality is not sameness, it is equal opportunity.

• Elimination of prejudice of all kinds.

Speaks for itself and backed strongly by key laws given by Baha'u'llah.

• Universal compulsory education.

Education for all is law. It is also Law that if funds are short the parents should give the female priority of education. The community should cover the education of those that can not be funded by parents.

• A spiritual solution to the economic problem.

This is so needed, it really does not need much explanation. I see it will be a voluntary dispersal of wealth by those that have more than they need, given to those that do not have the basics of life.

A universal auxiliary language.

This will be taught alongside the native tongue. Communication is one of the greatest barriers to the Unity of Humanity and it will come about around the same time humanity finds its unity.

Regards Tony
"A universal auxiliary language"

It is a failed attempt even among the followers of Bahaullah not to speak of its being Universal. Right, please?

Regards
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
"A universal auxiliary language"

It is a failed attempt even among the followers of Bahaullah not to speak of its being Universal. Right, please?

Regards

Sorry paarsurry, that question does not make sense to me?

Not sure what you are trying to say. Sorry.

A world language would help.

Regards Tony
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
OK, let know the Bahaism people's successes for establishment of the Universal auxiliary language, please.

Regards
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
The laws were given to uphold the principals that we need to live by now. Humanity needs to find that we are but one planet and one people.

So the Baha'i Laws give us the foundation for these principles to unfold;

• The oneness of mankind.

A main teaching of Baha'u'llah supported by guidance as to how to acheive that oneness.

• Universal peace upheld by a world government.

The abolition of Holy War is a core Law in the Baha'i Faith. The way to build the Lesser Peace by the Governments of the world has been given.

• Independent investigation of truth.

It is against the law for a Baha'i to proselytize and it is the responsibility of each person to investigate truth using both sound reason and scientific thought.

• The common foundation of all religions.

The major teaching of Baha'u'llah is that God is one and is the foundation of all the Worlds Faiths.

• The essential harmony of science and religion.

This also a core teaching and is self explanatory I see. Science without religion bends towards materialism. Faith without science becomes superstition.

• Equality of men and women.

We are to look at each others a equal in the eyes of God, Equality is not sameness, it is equal opportunity.

• Elimination of prejudice of all kinds.

Speaks for itself and backed strongly by key laws given by Baha'u'llah.

• Universal compulsory education.

Education for all is law. It is also Law that if funds are short the parents should give the female priority of education. The community should cover the education of those that can not be funded by parents.

A spiritual solution to the economic problem.

This is so needed, it really does not need much explanation. I see it will be a voluntary dispersal of wealth by those that have more than they need, given to those that do not have the basics of life.


• A universal auxiliary language.

This will be taught alongside the native tongue. Communication is one of the greatest barriers to the Unity of Humanity and it will come about around the same time humanity finds its unity.

Regards Tony
"A spiritual solution to the economic problem.
"I see it will be a voluntary dispersal of wealth by those that have more than they need, given to those that do not have the basics of life."

The suggested solution is already mentioned by Quran. Right, please?

[2:220]یَسۡـَٔلُوۡنَکَ عَنِ الۡخَمۡرِ وَ الۡمَیۡسِرِؕ قُلۡ فِیۡہِمَاۤ اِثۡمٌ کَبِیۡرٌ وَّ مَنَافِعُ لِلنَّاسِ ۫ وَ اِثۡمُہُمَاۤ اَکۡبَرُ مِنۡ نَّفۡعِہِمَا ؕ وَ یَسۡـَٔلُوۡنَکَ مَا ذَا یُنۡفِقُوۡنَ ۬ؕ قُلِ الۡعَفۡوَ ؕ کَذٰلِکَ یُبَیِّنُ اللّٰہُ لَکُمُ الۡاٰیٰتِ لَعَلَّکُمۡ تَتَفَکَّرُوۡنَ ﴿۲۲۰﴾ۙ
They ask thee concerning wine and the game of hazard. Say: ‘In both there is great sin and also some advantages for men; but their sin is greater than their advantage.’ And they ask thee what they should spend. Say: ‘What you can spare.’ Thus does Allah make His commandments clear to you that you may reflect.

Regards
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
"A spiritual solution to the economic problem.
"I see it will be a voluntary dispersal of wealth by those that have more than they need, given to those that do not have the basics of life."

The suggested solution is already mentioned by Quran. Right, please?

[2:220]یَسۡـَٔلُوۡنَکَ عَنِ الۡخَمۡرِ وَ الۡمَیۡسِرِؕ قُلۡ فِیۡہِمَاۤ اِثۡمٌ کَبِیۡرٌ وَّ مَنَافِعُ لِلنَّاسِ ۫ وَ اِثۡمُہُمَاۤ اَکۡبَرُ مِنۡ نَّفۡعِہِمَا ؕ وَ یَسۡـَٔلُوۡنَکَ مَا ذَا یُنۡفِقُوۡنَ ۬ؕ قُلِ الۡعَفۡوَ ؕ کَذٰلِکَ یُبَیِّنُ اللّٰہُ لَکُمُ الۡاٰیٰتِ لَعَلَّکُمۡ تَتَفَکَّرُوۡنَ ﴿۲۲۰﴾ۙ
They ask thee concerning wine and the game of hazard. Say: ‘In both there is great sin and also some advantages for men; but their sin is greater than their advantage.’ And they ask thee what they should spend. Say: ‘What you can spare.’ Thus does Allah make His commandments clear to you that you may reflect.

Regards

No, not as explained in the Baha'i Writings.

Regards Tony
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
OK, let know the Bahaism people's successes for establishment of the Universal auxiliary language, please.

Regards

It is not the Baha'i that will establish this, it is up to the Governments to implement.

Thus it will happen in the future.

Regards Tony
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
@paarsurrey This part of a letter explains how the Covenant of Baha'u'llah is a different way of looking at religious scriptures, that has not happened in the past religions, it also shows that it takes time for these practices to be fully implemented;

".. The House of Justice suggests that, in thinking about this, you contemplate the way the Covenant of Bahá’u’lláh has actually worked, and you will be able to see how very different its processes are from those of, say, the development of the law in Rabbinical Judaism or the functioning of the Papacy in Christianity. The practice in the past in these two religions, and also to a great extent in Islam, has been to assume that the Revelation given by the Founder was the final, perfect revelation of God’s Will to mankind, and all subsequent elucidation and legislation has been interpretative in the sense that it aimed at applying this basic Revelation to the new problems and situations that have arisen. The Bahá’í premises are quite different. Although the Revelation of Bahá’u’lláh is accepted as the Word of God and His Law as the Law of God, it is understood from the outset that Revelation is progressive, and that the Law, although the Will of God for this Age, will undoubtedly be changed by the next Manifestation of God. Secondly, only the written text of the Revelation is regarded as authoritative. There is no Oral Law as in Judaism, no Tradition of the Church as in Christianity, no Hadíth as in Islam. Thirdly, a clear distinction is drawn between interpretation and legislation. Authoritative interpretation is the exclusive prerogative of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá and the Guardian, while infallible legislation is the function of the Universal House of Justice.

If you study the Writings of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá and of the Guardian, you will see how tremendously they differ from the interpretations of the Rabbis and the Church. They are not a progressive fossilization of the Revelation, they are for the most part expositions which throw a clear light upon passages which may have been considered obscure, they point up the intimate interrelationship between various teachings, they expound the implications of scriptural allusions, and they educate the Bahá’ís in the tremendous significances of the Words of Bahá’u’lláh. Rather than in any way supplanting the Words of the Manifestation, they lead us back to them time and again.

There is also an important distinction made in the Faith between authoritative interpretation, as described above, and the interpretation which every believer is fully entitled to voice. Believers are free, indeed are encouraged, to study the Writings for themselves and to express their understanding of them. Such personal interpretations can be most illuminating, but all Bahá’ís, including the one expressing the view, however learned he may be, should realize that it is only a personal view and can never be upheld as a standard for others to accept, nor should disputes ever be permitted to arise over differences in such opinions.

The legislation enacted by the Universal House of Justice is different from interpretation. Authoritative interpretation, as uttered by ‘Abdu’l-Bahá and the Guardian, is a divinely guided statement of what the Word of God means. The divinely inspired legislation of the Universal House of Justice does not attempt to say what the revealed Word means—it states what must be done in cases where the revealed Text or its authoritative interpretation is not explicit. It is, therefore, on quite a different level from the Sacred Text, and the Universal House of Justice is empowered to abrogate or amend its own legislation whenever it judges the conditions make this desirable. Moreover, the attitude to legislation is different in the Bahá’í Faith. The human tendency in past Dispensations has been to want every question answered and to arrive at a binding decision affecting every small detail of belief or practice. The tendency in the Bahá’í Dispensation, from the time of Bahá’u’lláh Himself, has been to clarify the governing principles, to make binding pronouncements on details which are considered essential, but to leave a wide area to the conscience of the individual. The same tendency appears also in administrative matters. The Guardian used to state that the working of National Spiritual Assemblies should be uniform in essentials but that diversity in secondary matters was not only permissible but desirable. For this reason a number of points are not expressed in the National Bahá’í Constitution (the Declaration of Trust and By-Laws of National Assemblies); these are left to each National Spiritual Assembly to decide for itself.

The Covenant is the “axis of the oneness of the world of humanity” because it preserves the unity and integrity of the Faith itself and protects it from being disrupted by individuals who are convinced that only their understanding of the Teachings is the right one—a fate that has overcome all past Revelations. The Covenant is, moreover, embedded in the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh Himself. Thus, as you clearly see, to accept Bahá’u’lláh is to accept His Covenant; to reject His Covenant is to reject Him."

Regards Tony
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
It's not a choice. It's just a fact. Your religion doesn't truly believe in equal opportunity between men and women or else all positions in it would be equally open to both.

You can choose to see it that way as well.

I see Baha'i accept and know that it has nothing to do with the equality of men and women, which is one of the Baha'i Faith's strongest foundations. A spiritual equality is not sameness.

There is no explanation that would suit all people :)

Regards Tony
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
You can choose to see it that way as well.

I see Baha'i accept and know that it has nothing to do with the equality of men and women, which is one of the Baha'i Faith's strongest foundations. A spiritual equality is not sameness.

There is no explanation that would suit all people :)

Regards Tony

You have chosen to see it that way. :)
 

Saint Frankenstein

Wanderer From Afar
Premium Member
You can choose to see it that way as well.

I see Baha'i accept and know that it has nothing to do with the equality of men and women, which is one of the Baha'i Faith's strongest foundations. A spiritual equality is not sameness.

There is no explanation that would suit all people :)

Regards Tony
You are the one who mentioned equal opportunity, not me.
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
You are the one who mentioned equal opportunity, not me.

I see your point with the wording, there was not enough explanation :), That takes quotes that no one likes, as I see this in a different light, this is how I see it;

To accept and observe a distinction which God has not intended in creation is ignorance and superstition. The fact which is to be considered, however, is that woman, having formerly been deprived, must now be allowed equal opportunities with man for education and training. There must be no difference in their education. Until the reality of equality between man and woman is fully established and attained, the highest social development of mankind is not possible. Even granted that woman is inferior to man in some degree of capacity or accomplishment, this or any other distinction would continue to be productive of discord and trouble. The only remedy is education, opportunity; for equality means equal qualification. In brief, the assumption of superiority by man will continue to be depressing to the ambition of woman, as if her attainment to equality was creationally impossible; woman's aspiration toward advancement will be checked by it, and she will gradually become hopeless. On the contrary, we must declare that her capacity is equal, even greater than man's..."Abdu'l-Baha : The Promulgation of Universal Peace Part 1

Women in the Baha'i Faith can serve in many Capacities, non stop. I see it is a bounty for them to be exempt from the Universal House of Justice, but also wise. This role is a 5 year appointment where there is no other life one can live, but as a Member of the Universal House of Justice. Also what many do not understand, is that there is no Individual "high" roles in the Baha'i Faith, just opportunities to serve and most of these roles have no pay, though working for the wold center does provide accommodation and a small stipend to meet basic needs, (Some other payed opportunities as well, funded by a Baha'i for another Baha'i) Some positions on National Spiritual Assemblies and large Local Spiritual Assemblies may provide a small wage.

Thus equality of men and women is cemented in the Baha'i Writings, that does not mean sameness and a such A law that says the Universal House of Justice is only Men, does not mean they are not Equal, nor that they do not have the capacity. It is a Law given by God to which the wisdom will unfold.

"..The sex distinction which exists in the human world is due to the lack of education for woman, who has been denied equal opportunity for development and advancement. Equality of the sexes will be established in proportion to the increased opportunities afforded woman in this age, for man and woman are equally the recipients of powers and endowments from God, the Creator. God has not ordained distinction between them in His consummate purpose..." Abdu'l-Baha : The Promulgation of Universal Peace Part 2

Again, not all will see that is equal opportunity.

Regards Tony
 
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