Why Bahai

[Vinayaka]

I’m familiar with Juan Cole’s ideas about the Baha’i Faith and have no issue with reading and studying any of his papers to provide a critique. My understanding is he was attracted to the Baha’i Faith because of the values that aligned to Western secular values. He wanted to see the Baha’i Faith move in that direction. However, the Baha’i Faith as we all know is a religion with theocratic elements. His efforts to promote a community more aligned with Western secularism and less religious and theocratic didn’t work out. He became disaffected and left.

Yes that's the summary conclusion I came to too. I think though, that most ex-________ s, just leave quietly with no need to fill the air with their personal reasons. So those who do are a small subset of all those who leave, and not representative at all.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

It's in the Bahai' library for all to peruse as they see fit. Nobody is forcing anyone to read his scholarly detailed work.

That is not the official Baha'i Library

This is Bahá’í Reference Library | The Bahá’í Faith

That site was started by people that withdrew from the Faith.

The official library is at bahai.org

This was an issue when the net started, anyone can register a domain and then it belongs to them. I seem to remember that the Universal House of Justice tried a court case, it was not successful.

I hope it is different in the future. It is so confusing to internet uses.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Some long term Baha'is have withdrawn from the faith, as you know. I'm not all that eager to dismiss anyone of not being serious about stuff. Certainly Dr. Cole was very familiar with the faith, far more than the average Baha'i I think.

That is the point we are all average

We are asked to respect and appreciate the learned, at the same time they earn respect by their choices and actions.

To put that in a perspective, the Messenger is seen as the ultimate source of knowledge and power, they gain our respect because of their absolute Humility as a person.

Regards Tony

 

[Vinayaka]

That is not the official Baha'i Library

That site was started by people that withdrew from the Faith.

The official library is at bahai.org

This was an issue when the net started, anyone can register a domain and then it belongs to them. I seem to remember that the Universal House of Justice tried a court case, it was not successful.

I hope it is different in the future. It is so confusing to internet uses.

Regards Tony

Regardless, it's still scholarly detailed work, and worthy of perusing. Extreme censorship is another complain exes have. But I understand the mentality too. It's based on fear of finding something that makes too much sense to ignore.

 

[Vinayaka]

That is the point we are all average

We are asked to respect and appreciate the learned, at the same time they earn respect by their choices and actions.

To put that in a perspective, the Messenger is seen as the ultimate source of knowledge and power, they gain our respect because of their absolute Humility as a person.

Regards Tony

In any of the writings of your prophet that I've actually read, (his English was poor, really difficult to read,) the last thing that came across was humility.

To put that in a perspective, the Messenger is seen as the ultimate source of knowledge and power, they gain our respect because of their absolute Humility as a person.

You honestly don't see the contradiction there. 'Ultimate source of knowledge and power' with 'humility'. Maybe you're not understanding what humility means.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Regardless, it's still scholarly detailed work, and worthy of perusing. Extreme censorship is another complain exes have. But I understand the mentality too. It's based on fear of finding something that makes too much sense to ignore.

That site links all material about the Faith, authorised, not authorised and critical.

I see It is not about the pursuit of scholarly work. That is must. It is about intent and that is for each to decide. Personally I have no need to pursue these materials, but who knows maybe I will see a use to do so in the future. Like Adrian I may read as to offer an alternate view from a Baha'i perspective.

Who would accept that though, I do not have titles after my name.

I think it is adequately demonstrated that extreme blanket censorship is not pursued. A level of censorship is pursued and is always needed, otherwise we get what has happened to all past Faith, which is ultimately division.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

In any of the writings of your prophet that I've actually read, (his English was poor, really difficult to read,) the last thing that came across was humility.

Baha'u'llah Spoke and wrote in Arabic and Persian. King James English translations were chosen by Shoghi Effendi.

The Humility is only seen in the human station. As a Manifestation Baha'u'llah speaks for, or one can say, as God.

This also can only be seen when one reads and studies the writings, this short quote says it from Baha'u'llah,

"..... Notwithstanding the honor conferred upon me, and the unnumbered evidences of my wealth—a wealth that supplieth the needs of all creation—behold the measure of my humility, witness with what absolute submissiveness I allow myself to be trodden beneath the feet of men….”

Regards Tony

 

[Dawnofhope]

Yes that's the summary conclusion I came to too. I think though, that most ex-________ s, just leave quietly with no need to fill the air with their personal reasons. So those who do are a small subset of all those who leave, and not representative at all.

The last person who resigned from my community was about 6 years ago. He had been a Baha’i for about 20 years and was an atheist. He thought if he became a Baha’i he would believe in God. It never happened. Then when his business failed Something snapped and he resigned. People come and go and sometimes the reasons for joining initially aren’t the best.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

You honestly don't see the contradiction there. 'Ultimate source of knowledge and power' with 'humility'. Maybe you're not understanding what humility means.

Would you like an explanation?

Regards Tony

 

[Vinayaka]

The last person who resigned from my community was about 6 years ago. He had been a Baha’i for about 20 years and was an atheist. He thought if he became a Baha’i he would believe in God. It never happened. Then when his business failed Something snapped and he resigned. People come and go and sometimes the reasons for joining initially aren’t the best.

In my particular sampradaya, maybe 10 000 have been associated over the years in some ways. But yes, each person's case is individual, some come some go. There is no official 'friends' category but it's very large, including all kinds of folks from other sampradayas. Very few folks are up for the self-discipline and dedication needed. Of all who left, I only know a couple who made stinks about it. Most leave on excellent terms. Of course generally they don't leave Hinduism, just the sampradaya.

It's interesting to me that the ex-Hindu reddit is not very active at all, and some of the posts are rather suspicious in that they have really odd portrayals of Hinduism.

I've read quite a few 'leaving Bahai' testimonials. Some gut-wrenching stories, and it seems common that many folks just had trouble with other people at the local level. Correcting a wrong is always okay in my view. It's a universal right, in my view, to change one's mind.

 

[Vinayaka]

Baha'u'llah Spoke and wrote in Arabic and Persian. King James English translations were chosen by Shoghi Effendi.

The Humility is only seen in the human station. As a Manifestation Baha'u'llah speaks for, or one can say, as God.

This also can only be seen when one reads and studies the writings, this short quote says it from Baha'u'llah,

"..... Notwithstanding the honor conferred upon me, and the unnumbered evidences of my wealth—a wealth that supplieth the needs of all creation—behold the measure of my humility, witness with what absolute submissiveness I allow myself to be trodden beneath the feet of men….”

"A wealth that supplies the needs of all creation, behold the measure of my humility" ... sorry Tony, but that's not a statement of humility, it's self aggrandizing blabber.

 

[Vinayaka]

Would you like an explanation?

Regards Tony

No, I know how to read for myself.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Correcting a wrong is always okay in my view. It's a universal right, in my view, to change one's mind.

That is very agreeable.

I see it is also how we react to a wrong that can make the difference.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

No, I know how to read for myself.

That is good, all the answers can be found.

Regards Tony

 

[Vinayaka]

That site links all material about the Faith, authorised, not authorised and critical.

I see It is not about the pursuit of scholarly work. That is must. It is about intent and that is for each to decide. Personally I have no need to pursue these materials, but who knows maybe I will see a use to do so in the future. Like Adrian I may read as to offer an alternate view from a Baha'i perspective.

Who would accept that though, I do not have titles after my name.

I think it is adequately demonstrated that extreme blanket censorship is not pursued. A level of censorship is pursued and is always needed, otherwise we get what has happened to all past Faith, which is ultimately division.

Regards Tony

I use self-censorship, like avoiding violence and disrespect towards humanity. Regretfully, I have read stuff that disrespects humanity. It's interesting ... the 'if it's _______, then it's all good, or the opposite.

Just today I was listening to CBC about the unconscious barriers to women getting ahead in math and physics. A young man and woman who couldn't figure out why she was getting lower marks (on written papers) all the time than him, switched their names, and lo and behold, her work with his name on it got the better mark, by a lot.

So extend that to my view, I don't see Baha'i written work of any more value than non-Baha'i, but than I'm not subjected to censorship on it either. Certainly Moomen's work on Hinduism, a topic I happen to be familiar with, approved by the UHJ, is lacking in all kinds of things. Kalki, the supposed avatar isn't even in the Vedas, for example. So it's a very poor 'scholarly' work , 'scholarly' in quoted because it isn't scholarly at all. Someone like Cole would be laughing as he read it.

 

[Vinayaka]

That is very agreeable.

I see it is also how we react to a wrong that can make the difference.

Regards Tony

Very true. One has the choice to walk away, and chock it up as a valuable life experience. Most mature people are quite able to do that. That's what I expect generally happens in leaving any religion. You just lose interest and move on.

 

[Dawnofhope]

So extend that to my view, I don't see Baha'i written work of any more value than non-Baha'i, but than I'm not subjected to censorship on it either. Certainly Moomen's work on Hinduism, a topic I happen to be familiar with, approved by the UHJ, is lacking in all kinds of things. Kalki, the supposed avatar isn't even in the Vedas, for example. So it's a very poor 'scholarly' work , 'scholarly' in quoted because it isn't scholarly at all. Someone like Cole would be laughing as he read it.

Just to be clear, academic papers and books are reviewed by committees overseen by National Spiritual Assemblies, not the Universal House of Justice.

 

[Vinayaka]

Just to be clear, academic papers and books are reviewed by committees overseen by National Spiritual Assemblies, not the Universal House of Justice.

Who would have reviewed and approved Moomen's disaster? NSA of India?

 

[Dawnofhope]

Who would have reviewed and approved Moomen's disaster? NSA of India?

LOL. It was published in England 1990 so presumably the review committee there.

Hinduism and the Bahá'í Faith

 

[Vinayaka]

LOL. It was published in England 1990 so presumably the review committee there.

Hinduism and the Bahá'í Faith

29 years is a long time ago. Knowledge about Hinduism was weak back then. With immigration and the internet perhaps that can change. Maybe one day his work will be willingly supplanted by a better one. In the meantime, much misinformation has been spread.