Why Bahai

[Aupmanyav]

Are you aware Baha'u'llah wrote letters to someof the Kings and Rulers of the world proclaiming His Mission?
The letters included those to Queen Victoria, the Shah of Persia, Czar Alexandra II of Russia, Pope Pious IX and Napoleon III.

That is very funny. What is so special about some egoistic people writing to people in power looking for acceptance to enhance their own importance? Such letters are then thrown in the waste paper basket by the secretaries of those people and not even seen by the people they are addressed to. And if they are replied, the person straps that on his chest and walks like a proud peacock.

 

[firedragon]

The version I sent you today has the paragraphs numbered for clarity.

What I meant is bro, I downloaded the same from there same source on day one through your own reference. I thought there must be another version. Anyway, thats not a problem. Thanks very much.

Baha'is would see Baha'u'llah as being both Nabi and Rasool as with Moses, Jesus and Muhammad.

The Kitab-i-Aqdas is a charter for a future civilisation, not a proclamation of His station. You won't find an explicit proclamation of being a Nabi/Rasool there.

Are you aware Baha'u'llah wrote letters to someof the Kings and Rulers of the world proclaiming His Mission?
The letters included those to Queen Victoria, the Shah of Persia, Czar Alexandra II of Russia, Pope Pious IX and Napoleon III.

yes I am aware that he wrote letters. Didnt he write one to the Pope as well. But I am yet to read them.

I don't know Arabic so the etymology of the phrase meaning sealof the prophets I will always struggle with. One meaning may be that Muhammand refers to the end of the Adamic cycle, or the Prophetic era starting from Adam and ending with Himself, whereas the Baha'i Dispensation inaugurates a cycle of fulfilment.

No brother. Dont get lost in the English translation. Because this word "seal" is not the exact meaning in English. Just like the word God, prophet, religion, sect, Lord, etc etc. One doesn't have a choice but to translate a language into English but very difficult to give the meaning. One will have to explain it.

Seal or khatham (Hatham with phlegm over Ha) means you basically e.g. write a book and seal it so that it's finished. Done. Another example would be just think of a tap that is running and you put something to stop it or end the flow. Thats what it means.

Unsealing the “Seal of the Prophets”

But brother. This source with Christopher Buck is completely useless. He doesn't have a clue. Im sorry, no disrespect intended but he is interpreting English words like "meet". Sorry but that was nonsense.

Obviously if the current Islamic interpretation is the only correct one in the sense of Muhammad being the final Prophet/Messenger for all time, there can be no others. I do not believe this of course but we are all free to believe as we please. If we are sincere and search fervently for the truth, Allah will guide us.

Agreed.

 

[oldbadger]

That is very funny. What is so special about some egoistic people writing to people in power looking for acceptance to enhance their own importance? Such letters are then thrown in the waste paper basket by the secretaries of those people and not even seen by the people they are addressed to. And if they are replied, the person straps that on his chest and walks like a proud peacock.

Exactly.
If you should write a letter to her Majesty Queen Elizabeth the 2nd you will get a reply. In which case we will all be able to refer to you as 'Aupmanyav who was personally acknowledged by the Queen of England'. Your Wow-factor will increase by several points and folks may even be able to perceive that your writings have amazing prophecy. Before you know it you'll be hailed as a Prophet of God and the more that you angrily deny this, so the more your followers will be able to show the World that you are as humble as only a prophet could be.
Then an OldBadger will gather up the stories about you and figure out a decent income from his 'To Heaven with Atheists' telly network.
Damn......... I'm too old to live long enough to really enjoy the gold Rolls or the Motor-Yacht. Hmmm.... Hell..... :

 

[Dawnofhope]

No brother. Dont get lost in the English translation. Because this word "seal" is not the exact meaning in English. Just like the word God, prophet, religion, sect, Lord, etc etc. One doesn't have a choice but to translate a language into English but very difficult to give the meaning. One will have to explain it.

Seal or khatham (Hatham with phlegm over Ha) means you basically e.g. write a book and seal it so that it's finished. Done. Another example would be just think of a tap that is running and you put something to stop it or end the flow. Thats what it means.

But brother. This source with Christopher Buck is completely useless. He doesn't have a clue. Im sorry, no disrespect intended but he is interpreting English words like "meet". Sorry but that was nonsense.

OK. So how do you go from a seal as you've described it, to Muhammad being the final Prophet/Messenger of all time?

 

[oldbadger]

yes I am aware that he wrote letters. Didnt he write one to the Pope as well. But I am yet to read them..

My goodness!...... but you do steam ahead at a very high rate of knots, firedragon.

It seems that you are multi lingual and have ability as a translator of Mid-East and Asian languages?

If so, I feel sure that you will begin to perceive that Bahai books available to the West have translations 'helpful' to Bahai, but more importantly you will be able to access and read documents that have been unavailable to the West.

Earlier on, devoted Bahais who were able to read and translate unavailable documents slowly began to cause embarrassment to the Bahai leadership and after warnings they were excluded from the religion.

If a Bahai hears that another follower has been excluded from the faith they will shun them..... thus I reckon the faith can try to protect itself from unnecessary or unhelpful truths.

I remember that two (once acclaimed) excluded professors are :-
Prof Juan Cole
Prof Walbridge
..... infact they taught me more about Bahai than any others.

An occasional visitor, a Bahai who has been shunned in some way by the bosses, who posts on this site who imo the most brilliant authority and the most humble Bahai, who runs Bahai web-sites ....... he got in to trouble for his discoveries and translation, I think. His name is Sen McGill or Sen McGlen.

It's when you read such folks as the translators that you discover what an oppressed World a Bahai World would be.
For instance, people will have to cut their hair in particular ways, women different to men, and I remember that men will be banned from growing long hair, etc.....

The surface sweetness of Bahai seems to cover a pit of oppression..... to me.

 

[firedragon]

OK. So how do you go from a seal as you've described it, to Muhammad being the final Prophet/Messenger of all time?

Well. Depends on what you mean by the words "prophet" and "Messenger". And I dont understand why you put both words together.

If you explain, maybe I can make it clearer since I obviously have not.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Well. Depends on what you mean by the words "prophet" and "Messenger". And I dont understand why you put both words together.

If you explain, maybe I can make it clearer since I obviously have not.

The words you were using were 'Nabi' and 'Rasool'. You had mentioned they were like 'Prophet' and 'Messenger' but there wasn't an equivalent in English.

You have made clear what the term 'seal' means, but I'm unclear why you as a Muslim would believe Muhammad is the final Rasool and Nabi like Moses, Jesus, David or Muhammad.

As an aside there are less open forums where you can choose who you want (or don't want to talk to). For example I was tagged today on this thread.

A Baha'i Conundrum (by invitation only)

 

[shunyadragon]

Also stop the rain when it is causing havoc. China, India, Spain and many other countries are reeling under floods (as also cyclones and earthquakes). The death count here exceeds 1,200. It is middle of September and it is still raining cats and dogs. That is what a loving God does. But then, the Muslims are right. Allah is testing people.
"Floods in India" - Google Search (Images for the last one month, even in the desert state of Rajasthan)

View attachment 32877
600mm/24 inches is like optimal. After that we start having problems - some natural, some man-made.

Global Warming

 

[paarsurrey]

In a nutshell, the Bahai Faith takes the Islaamic idea of refinement of previous revelations and runs with it to the next step, claiming to be the most recent (and final? I am not sure on that point) of a series of Abrahamic revelations.

It arose in the 19th century in current day Iran, amidst a Shia Muslim society. There is an intermediate creed with an separate prophet, the Bab, that shortly preceeded the Bahai Faith's Baha'u'llah.

More recent speakers with authority over the Bahai Faith have since extended the Bahai claims in order to declare that somehow the creed, despite its very Abrahamic nature, is also a successor to Zoroastrism, Buddhism and Hinduism.

They are often accused of misrepresenting other creeds. I for one agree that they do indeed misrepresent the non-Abrahamics to a grave degree.

As you may easily imagine, most Muslims consider the Bahai Faith to misrepresent Islaam as well, mainly by presenting a new revelation and a new prophet in defiance of the Qur'an. Still, these days the Bahais are among the most motivated non-Muslim defenders of the validity and reputation of Islaam.

"Bab"

Some followers of Bab in the forum have strongly objected to it. They describe that Bab was within the Shia-Twelver Islam, while Bahaism is a new religion.

"They are often accused of misrepresenting other creeds. I for one agree that they do indeed misrepresent the non-Abrahamics to a grave degree."

Yes, Hinduism friends in the Forum has taken exception to it.

"As you may easily imagine, most Muslims consider the Bahai Faith to misrepresent Islaam as well, mainly by presenting a new revelation and a new prophet in defiance of the Qur'an."

Yes, it is true.

"Still, these days the Bahais are among the most motivated non-Muslim defenders of the validity and reputation of Islaam"

It is a Bahaism tactic to misrepresent Islam.
Islam doesn't need and defendants from Bahaism people. We can and we do defend Islam from Quran, whatever our denomination.

Regards

 

[night912]

It's a pretty large subject, but to try to break down how I understand it...

We have these times in Old Testament times that speak of God.

Then later, Christ comes with clarifications and new rules. It's almost like a Covenant with God, software revision 2.0

Then Bahaullah comes and clarifies, establishes, etc. Much like a Covenant with God, software revision 3.0

But that's just my limited understanding.

But all this is a pretty basic description, considering we have several manifestations of God we view as being manifestations, including Krishna.

Version 3.0 would be Islam.

 

[paarsurrey]

Bahais believe in the Quran and Muhammed right? Do they also believe in the Hindu Scripture?

"Bahais believe in the Quran and Muhammed right?"

I figure that Bahaullah had a shallow knowledge of Quran and the knowledge of the Bahaism people is even more shallow. They mostly misrepresent Quran/Islam/Muhammad.

Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

Thanks.

Do they consider "the holy book" as scripture? I mean a revelation of God?

Bahaullah did not claim that he had any Converse with G-d, in his core book of thought "Kitab-i-Iqan". His writing, as I understand, are not Word of Revelation of G-d as we Muslims believe Quran is. Muhammad never said that Quran is authored by him.
Bahaullah's writings are authored by Bahaullah, one could see it from the official site.

Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

Thank you so much. I shall follow that thread. Cheers.

I am also reading it.
Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

Adrian answered my questions, so that thread won't grow longer, ... unless you or someone else decides to add to it.

I would have written there, but I want that a Christian should defend his religion. I intend to address the points raised there about Islam when one has sort of finished defending Christianity.

Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

The Hindu scriptures are vast as are the philosophical schools. The Baha'is selected Vaishnavism, (and ignored the rest) as it does have a dualistic God that could be perceived as separate from us. But the difference is that for Vaishnavites, Krishna is God, and for Baha'is He's a manifestation of God. There are many many key concepts we differ on like karma, dharma, reincarnation, non-proselytising and more. So for Hindus it's all a huge stretch.

"manifestation of God"

I figure that Bahaullah harped on this term "manifestation of God" to escape punishment from G-d, and He refrained using the term Messenger/Prophet of G-d. Bahaullah did not claim to be a Messenger/Prophet of G-d in his core book of thought "Kitab-i-Iqan" and he was not appointed by G-d, obviously.
I figure that Bahaullah was not even a Bahai, he never claimed to be. This named of adopted by Abdul Baha and Shoghi Effendi later in time.

Regards

 

[Terry Sampson]

I would have written there, but I want that a Christian should defend his religion. I intend to address the points raised there about Islam when one has sort of finished defending Christianity. Regards

I am finished writing in that thread, and defend my beliefs in another thread elsewhere.

 

[Vinayaka]

The challenge is determining what is Truth given by the Messenger.

Not what alternate creed men have made of it.

Of course men find it hard to admit they may have got it wrong.

Regards Tony

A billion Hindus got it wrong? A billion Christians got it wrong? A billion Muslims got it wrong? But a million Baha'is got it right?
That's the stuff that helps unify everyone.

 

[paarsurrey]

Most? This is determined, how?

To the extent that they may feel that way, though,
it is understandable.

EVERY single christian on RF has a different,
sometimes radically different idea of what it is
to be a christian.

Well I figure the Christians are as divided as the non-believers Atheism/Agnosticism/Skepticism people, not more.

Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

I am finished writing in this thread, and defend my beliefs in another thread elsewhere.

About Bahaism?

Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

A billion Hindus got it wrong? A billion Christians got it wrong? A billion Muslims got it wrong? But a million Baha'is got it right?
That's the stuff that helps unify everyone.

Is it unity in misrepresentation?!

Regards