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Featured Why Bahai

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by firedragon, Sep 11, 2019.

  1. LuisDantas

    LuisDantas Aura of atheification
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    What would such a reapperance even be? Buddhist core concepts don't really allow for reincarnation, despite a considerable amount of confusion and controversy that I personally attribute to a bit more concession to syncretism with Tibetan Bon beliefs than we should have had.

    Yes, there is the expectation of the coming of Maitreya, and there has been a veritable legion of Maitreya "hopefuls" since. But Maitreya is explicitly a separate Buddha, and it takes a severe beating of the core ideas of Buddhism to decide that he is somehow Gautama.

    It just doesn't make any logical sense.

    Then there are the calculations about when to expect Maitreya, if we should truly expect him as a living person at all. Low estimates go from about the year 30000, up to hundreds of millions of years in the future.

    One would expect a doctrine such as the Bahai Faith that explicltly relies on the idea of Progressive Revelation to understand that such high numbers might lead to something more meritory than expectations of meeting either Buddha in the flesh during our recent past or predictable future, but apparently not.

    Any way you slice it, the Bahai claims about Buddhism just can't be made to work.
     
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  2. Vinayaka

    Vinayaka devotee
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    Buddhist temples of today all have statues. So you respect the Buddhists of yesterday, but not those of today? Good to know.
     
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  3. LuisDantas

    LuisDantas Aura of atheification
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    That is all fine. But how do you jump from that to the conclusions that you stated previously, I can not even guess.
     
  4. InvestigateTruth

    InvestigateTruth Well-Known Member

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    Hi, just thought I give you my understanding on this Seal of Prophets and Messengers.
    phd, It is a good analogy. So, let's say there is a PhD professor, who can obviously also teach Primary school topics. If we say, there won't be any more Primary school teacher, does it mean there won't be any more PhD professor either?
    Messenger ship and prophethood are two different functions. Messengers in the Quran are those who brought covenants, such as Noah, and Jesus. Prophets are those who are able to bring news of future, or do prophecies, which is to inform people of future events.
    But mind you, in Bahai view, through Muhammad both Prophethood, and Messengership was sealed, as Bahaullah wrote. Bahaullah fulfills the prophecies of the Day of Resurrection, and meeting with the Lord as promised in Quran, Bible and other holy books.
     
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  5. loverofhumanity

    loverofhumanity Well-Known Member
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    To me all religions are my religions and all faiths my faith. I can not deny the truth in other religions just as I cannot deny my own and if I were to deny any of the major religions then I would in fact be denying my own religion because I believe truth is in all religions not just one of them or not just in my own.

    Thanks for calling me brother. I consider it a privilege.
     
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  6. firedragon

    firedragon Well-Known Member

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    Bro. I am referring to Sutta Pitaka, not suttas. Sutta Pitaka is one of the Tipitaka's.

    Anyway, lets move on.

    In Sutta Pitaka, you get the five famous Nikayas or "talks". In that there is a Nikaya called Deega Nikaya. (Pronounced Dheega or theega. "Dh" pronounced like "The" or "Then"). Dheega Nikaya means lenngthy or long talk. In the Dheega Nikaaya you get "Chakkavatti Sutta". So you will find part of the eschatology there. If you read it, you will know what I am talking about.

    I will give you a synopsis kind of thing. Take it as superficial, allegorical, metaphorical, actual or whatever you like. I say that because people will say all of those four things as explanation when convenient. Here goes. This is supposed to be in the future. I will ignore the past part.

    1. Human attractiveness, wealth, pleasure, health or might will reduce.
    2. People will live for 10 years in average (As in now or at the time this was written it was supposed to have been 100 years)
    3. Human beings will be sexually active by the age of 5.
    4. People will not be respected and paid homage to because of their righteousness.
    5. There won't be any parenthood. No motherhood, fatherhood, priesthood etc
    6. Those who lack all of these qualities will be the ones who will have respect and people will pay homage to them.
    7. The word skill or skilful will not exist.
    8. All human beings will carry swords. There will be carnage. People will hunt each other.
    9. Few of them will hide in the wild to get away from this madness.
    10. Then these people will come back, virtue will rise, all beauty, strength etc etc will rise, people will get sexual maturity at the age of 500. (people will live for either 1000 or 80000 years depending on the school of thought)
    11. This is the time the Buddha Maithriya will appear.
    12. The greatest king in the world at the time will become his disciple.
    13. At this time there will be only 3 diseases. Desire, lack of things to eat, and old age. No other diseases.
    14. Then the greatest king who became a disciple will go into seclusion, meditate and become arahath or enlightened. That will happen directly under the Buddhas guidance.

    That is in Dheega Nikaya.

    Sorry brother. I dont have links to the internet sources. I honestly dont. Anyway I hate to point to some website or a page that discusses concept after concept built on one verse from here and there. Direct reference. Buy the book. If you can find this on the net, im sure you can, and its great. You will definitely find all of what I said. Its just the second paragraph or third in the reference I gave. Easy to find.

    Peace.
     
  7. firedragon

    firedragon Well-Known Member

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    I agree. But we must go to the roots. Or try.

    Brother. It is "my" privilege to call you brother.

    Cheers.
     
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  8. loverofhumanity

    loverofhumanity Well-Known Member
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    Just felt it necessary to share with you our deep reverence for the Buddha and His teachings.
     
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  9. firedragon

    firedragon Well-Known Member

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    Oh sorry. Pancha Nikaya is 5 Nikayas. Anguththara is one of them. So is Dheega Nikaya. So is Khudhdhaka, Majjima, and Samyutta. Pancha means 5.
     
  10. firedragon

    firedragon Well-Known Member

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    To know his teachings read the direct source. That is my request. We dont have to be scholars but we can try to be scholarly.
     
  11. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    You just completely confused me with that first sentence. Suttas means more than one sutta. You have many suttas (more than one collection of discourses) within the Pali Canon. It just means there are more than one.

    I'm not familiar with the Sanskrit grammar of describing multiples of an object or idea. It's a language thing.
     
  12. firedragon

    firedragon Well-Known Member

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    You have completely misunderstood the analogy. Completely. It was not about teaching, it was about being.

    Cheers.
     
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  13. firedragon

    firedragon Well-Known Member

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    My God.

    I am not talking about Suttas when I said "Sutta Pitaka".

    Anyway, you can ignore that and go to the rest which is more important. And to understand what I said you dont need to know anything but English.

    Peace.
     
  14. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    There are thousands of discourses; so, I'd have to shimmy through them. I was wondering your objection to Lover's comment about Maitreya. It mentions that Maitreya is the next buddha that will come to bring a "newed" message just as other prophets from abrahamic scriptures, buddhist, and muslim.

    I know that's not true; the two don't match. I was wondering when you mentioned "quoting Deega Nikaya from Sutta Pitaka" what was the opposition you were telling Lover?

    Was it a contradiction?
     
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  15. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    What does sutta mean to you?

    Sheesh. Can't have a dialogue when we can't ask for clarification over the semantics. What's up with that? I was really honest in my questions.
     
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  16. firedragon

    firedragon Well-Known Member

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    Good God. Mate. I have given you the direct reference. I have pointed exactly what and where to look for. Now you speaking of some thousands of discourses means you have no clue of whatever you are speaking of. You dont know what a Pitaka is. I dont know how to explain if you are not humble enough to just ask candidly rather than making these kind of statements.

    My opposition is again let me cut and paste.

    1. Human attractiveness, wealth, pleasure, health or might will reduce.
    2. People will live for 10 years in average (As in now or at the time this was written it was supposed to have been 100 years)
    3. Human beings will be sexually active by the age of 5.
    4. People will not be respected and paid homage to because of their righteousness.
    5. There won't be any parenthood. No motherhood, fatherhood, priesthood etc
    6. Those who lack all of these qualities will be the ones who will have respect and people will pay homage to them.
    7. The word skill or skilful will not exist.
    8. All human beings will carry swords. There will be carnage. People will hunt each other.
    9. Few of them will hide in the wild to get away from this madness.
    10. Then these people will come back, virtue will rise, all beauty, strength etc etc will rise, people will get sexual maturity at the age of 500. (people will live for either 1000 or 80000 years depending on the school of thought)
    11. This is the time the Buddha Maithriya will appear.
    12. The greatest king in the world at the time will become his disciple.
    13. At this time there will be only 3 diseases. Desire, lack of things to eat, and old age. No other diseases.
    14. Then the greatest king who became a disciple will go into seclusion, meditate and become arahath or enlightened. That will happen directly under the Buddhas guidance.

    All of that has to come to pass at the time of the Buddhas advent. Did it all happen during Bahaullahs time?

    thats one objection.

    The other objection is, it is well known among scholars of the scripture that this doesn't fit the Sutta Pitaka. So it is interpolation anyway. The whole Maitreya's coming is interpolation. I dont say this, but scholars like Gombrich says it.

    So these are the objections.
     
  17. loverofhumanity

    loverofhumanity Well-Known Member
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    I personally am tired of conflict and disunity and Baha’u’llah seems to have offered us a way out by accepting one another’s religion which to me is so promising because now instead of just believing in say Jesus and all others are sinners or not saved, I believe all religions teach the truth so I’m a Jew with the Jew a Buddhist with the Buddhist - a Universal person who doesn’t have to reject or condemn or judge anyone but accept all humanity unconditionally no matter what they do or don’t believe.

    It’s like being released from a cage or strait jacket. It’s emancipating. If we all can accept each other all wars and conflicts can end and a new era of the family of man begin.

    Theology and hair-splitting achieves nothing. Spiritually we need to put our differences aside and accept each other with true sincerity without condition. This is what all the Great Teachers have taught.

    Scripture is a guide meant to assist us not divide us. When I read the Words of Buddha or Jesus or the Gita or Quran I see light upon light, truth upon truth all expressed differently like the rays of the same sun.

    The flowers of a garden all spring from the same soil, receive light from the same sun and rain from the same clouds and although differing in colour, shape and size are not in conflict with each other. So humanity too is rich in diversity which only increases its beauty and was never intended to be a cause of strife or conflict.

    We can all be at peace with each other if we really, really want to. I pray and meditate in all churches, mosques, pagodas and temples as all these places teach truth. I believe humanity is maturing fast and people everywhere who are tired of disunity will eventually learn to see the truth and beauty in all religions leading to unity and peace everywhere.
     
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  18. firedragon

    firedragon Well-Known Member

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    Mate.

    What is the Tipitaka?

    It is

    1. Sutta Pitaka
    2. Vinaya Pitaka
    3. Abhidamma Pitaka

    Sutta Pitaka is not a Sutta.

    Let me tell you what a Sutta is. Sutta is a Soothra. A recipe. A combination ingredients that make up a formula.

    Sutta Pitaka is not a Sutta. Please hear this. I am only trying to clarify. Be humble and understand this.

    You get thousands and thousands of Suttas. That does not make the Sutta Pitaka a Sutta. Sutta Pitaka is a basket. One whole book or library of various writings in collective one name "Sutta Pitaka".
     
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  19. firedragon

    firedragon Well-Known Member

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    OK.
     
  20. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    I know this is a forum and it's hard to have long conversations. Dialogues also have clarifications and need to be cut into pieces so the reader, like myself, won't have a chucnk of information and try to figure out exactly what you're trying to say.

    It's like christians dumping verses and expect you to "see the light." Dialogues don't work that way. It takes patience, interest, and clarification on both ends. Without that, what's the use of conversing (or debating with others for that matter).

    My original question was how was Lover's comment and post from the sutta (the book of discourses or Dhamma, case in point) a contradiction to each other?

    It seemed like you were refuting his post with another post in the same Dhamma (Buddha's discourses on Practice). Unless the Dhamma contradicts each other (I wouldn't be surprised since it's not "holy" scriptures), what was the point you were making with Loverofhumanity?

    That's all I wanted to know.
     
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