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Featured Who understands and can explain the meaning of Romans 9:3-4?

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Amikam Israel, May 23, 2019.

  1. Amikam Israel

    Amikam Israel Israelite From the Tribe of Judah

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    Oh okay. You don't want to answer the question. Well answer this one if you can: Are Christians Israelites? And if so, show me in the bible where this is true. And if you are a Christian who believes Christians are Israelites, then which of the twelve tribes are you from?
     
  2. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

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    Israelite means children of Israel correct?
     
  3. Amikam Israel

    Amikam Israel Israelite From the Tribe of Judah

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    Allow me to ask again: Are Christians Israelites? And if so, show me in the bible where this is true. And if you are a Christian who believes Christians are Israelites, then which of the twelve tribes are you from?

    Let's take turns answering questions. I asked three questions, and you've answered none so far. When you answer just one of them, I'll answer one of your questions.
     
  4. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

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    Fine, but I hope you can even follow this. Yes, true Christians are the true children of Israel and since you want to know where in the Bible it says so; I'll show you.

    Let's get one thing straight. Jesus is the real Israel(the beginning of it) as we find in Hosea 11:1 and Matthew 2:15. Then we can conclude that all true Christians are the real children of Israel through the resurrection power of Jesus Christ. Who rose from the dead and if you're not a member of His body you're not yet risen and so you will not be considered as the real Israelite no matter who your mommy or daddy is. This is why Jesus said to Nicodemus (who was Hebrew) "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." and He also said "Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again." So Jesus told the Hebrew Nicodemus that he had to be born again. Which proves that his earthly lineage was of no worth in this case. He would never be the real Israel until he was born again. Whoever is born again will inherit the kingdom of God so long as they remain to the end.

    For flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God and that which is born of the flesh is flesh and whatever is born of the Spirit is spirit. The true circumcision that God desires is the putting off of all the flesh and this was done through the cross. Jesus circumcised everyone by putting the flesh to death.

    And so we come to the conclusion of the matter. All Hebrews who are still in their flesh are lost in the wilderness and they have no water and they are thirsty and about to die of thirst because they cannot see the truth. Their mother is an Egyptian slave woman. And they are all still in slavery according to the Covenant of Mt Sinai.

    But whoever is born again they are in the new Covenant which is everlasting life from the dead. They will be the true everlasting Israel of God. Just like Abraham symbolically received Isaac from the dead ...
     
  5. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    There is so much here to address....I'll break it up...

    I do speak English.....modern English that is, and I hate archaic English in any Bible translation. So can we use a modern English translation please?

    Perhaps you need to read the whole of chapter 11 about the remnant and the grafting of the olive branches....

    What is a remnant? It is a small portion of a larger quantity of something that is left over. What does that mean for Israel if only a remnant would be saved?

    That remnant of fleshly Jews responded to Jesus. He wasn't sent to the religious leaders whom he castigated at every opportunity for their arrogant attitude, and consigned them to Gehenna....but he was sent to the "lost sheep of the house of Israel"....these were the ones that were worth saving....the ones that the shepherds of Israel had neglected and written off as hopeless.

    What does Paul say just before your quote?

    "You who take pride in law, do you dishonor God by your transgressing of the Law? 24 For “the name of God is being blasphemed among the nations because of you,” just as it is written.

    25 Circumcision is, in fact, of benefit only if you practice law; but if you are a transgressor of law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision. 26 If, therefore, an uncircumcised person keeps the righteous requirements of the Law, his uncircumcision will be counted as circumcision, will it not? 27 And the physically uncircumcised person will, by carrying out the Law, judge you who are a transgressor of law despite having its written code and circumcision. 28 For he is not a Jew who is one on the outside, nor is circumcision something on the outside, on the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one on the inside, and his circumcision is that of the heart by spirit and not by a written code. That person’s praise comes from God, not from people."


    Paul was addressing his Christian brothers in Rome......
    "But I do not want you to be unaware, brothers, that many times I have intended to come to you—but I have been prevented until now—in order that I might acquire some fruitage also among you just as among the rest of the nations. 14 Both to Greeks and to foreigners, both to wise and to senseless ones, I am a debtor; 15 so I am eager to declare the good news also to you there in Rome. 16 For I am not ashamed of the good news; it is, in fact, God’s power for salvation to everyone having faith, to the Jew first and also to the Greek."

    Paul was an apostle to the nations.....to non-Jews...Gentiles, as well as to his fellow Jews.

    He said..."For we consider that a man is declared righteous by faith apart from works of law. 29 Or is he the God of the Jews only? Is he not also the God of people of the nations? Yes, also of people of the nations. 30 Since God is one, he will declare circumcised people righteous as a result of faith and uncircumcised people righteous by means of their faith." (Romans 3:28-30)

    You see the common denominator? "Faith".....faith in Jesus Christ.
     
  6. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Who is a Jew in God's eyes?

    What did John the Baptist say?....

    " If you have really turned from your sins to God, produce fruit that will prove it! 9 And don’t suppose you can comfort yourselves by saying, ‘Avraham is our father’! For I tell you that God can raise up for Avraham sons from these stones! 10 Already the axe is at the root of the trees, ready to strike; every tree that doesn’t produce good fruit will be chopped down and thrown in the fire!" (Matthew 3:8-10)

    Having Jewish nationality doesn't mean anything if you don't obey God's Law in everything. The Jews can't rely on their lineage as if God will forgive them for their disobedience because of their relationship to Abraham.....that according to John the Baptist is a false assumption.

    Who is a Jew according to Paul?.... Romans 2:28-29....
    "For he is not a Jew who is one on the outside, nor is circumcision something on the outside, on the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one on the inside, and his circumcision is that of the heart by spirit and not by a written code. That person’s praise comes from God, not from people."


    What is with the old English? o_O

    Acts 5:31...
    "God exalted this one as Chief Agent and Savior to his right hand, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins."

    Yes, as Paul said...opportunity was given to Israel first.....God wanted them to inherit the promise he made to Abraham, but as it was foretold, only a remnant of natural Jews responded.

    Before he was executed, Jesus condemned Israel's leaders as incorrigible. They were misleading the nation away from God by not acknowledging Jesus as Messiah and worse, imitating their wicked forefathers in how they treated him.....meriting God's abandonment. (Matthew 23:37-39)

    You rely on Wiki to provide you with the definition of a Gentile? Seriously? :oops:

    What about the scriptural definition? Here: Who understands and can explain the meaning of Romans 9:3-4?

    When Paul wrote that, ("at this present time") what was the situation? There was a remnant of fleshly Israel who accepted Jesus as Messiah, but true to the rest of Paul's statements, they had run out of Jews to fill the ranks. The majority of those who would make up spiritual Israel ("The Israel of God". Galatians 6:16) were then to be made up of non-Jews. (Luke 14:16-24)
     
    #106 Deeje, May 24, 2019
    Last edited: May 24, 2019
  7. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    You quoted Ezekiel.....so when were those words written and where? Where were the Jews at that time?

    There was a close relationship between the prophetic work of Jeremiah in Jerusalem and Ezekiel in Babylon, with both of them were trying to dispel from the minds of the Jews in both locations the idea that God was going to bring an early end to Babylonian domination and that Jerusalem would not fall.

    Jeremiah actually sent a letter to the captives in the land of Babylonia, telling them to settle down and be at peace in Babylon because a 70-year period must pass before they would be delivered.
    As Ezekiel was told, it was among “obstinate ones and things pricking you and it is among scorpions that you are dwelling.” (Ezekiel 2:6) Even when the time came for the restoration at the end of the 70 years, many of these Jews did not want to leave Babylon, being firmly entrenched in the Babylonian way of life and enjoying commercial success there.

    So we see Ezekiel's words in context were talking about a return to Jerusalem of the captive Jews and a re-establishing of God's worship in their homeland, which took place when a remnant returned. It required obedience, patience, and much faith to carry out this pictorial warning to a faithless, ridiculing people. After a strong condemnation of Israel’s greedy shepherds, he directed his prophetic activities toward building faith in the promise of God that Israel would be revived, regathered, and united.

    Ezekiel then gives a detailed description of the rebuilt temple, “blueprinted” for him by Yahweh. This visionary temple was prophetic of something in the far-distant future, for no such temple was ever actually constructed.

    LOL...I love your confidence Sunshine but you are so way off in your application of scripture that its rather amusing.

    Again, what is that verse telling us in context? Look at what is said just before....

    The Apostle Peter had just been involved in the first conversion of a Gentile to Christianity. He said about that experience....Now I truly understand that God is not partial, 35 but in every nation the man who fears him and does what is right is acceptable to him. 36 He sent out the word to the sons of Israel to declare to them the good news of peace through Jesus Christthis one is Lord of all." (Acts 10:34-36)

    Nice try....'Jesus Christ is Lord of all'. God is no longer favoring just one nation.....all who fear him and do what is right are acceptable to God. This is in keeping with God's promise to Abraham...to bless all nations through his seed....Jesus Christ. (Galatians 3:16)

    You seem to forget that a "remnant" is a small left over part of something much larger. Jesus was sent to Israel, but not to the incorrigible shepherds. He preached to the 'lost' ones 1) because they would feel the love of God and his Christ, (Matthew 11:28-30) and 2) because they were promised first option to become disciples of the Messiah.
    Only a remnant responded....only a remnant were saved out of that nation. Scripture was fulfilled.

    Again, who was Jesus sent to? Exclusively to the Jews....remember? Only after Jesus death and resurrection did the opportunity open up for Gentiles to be added to the ranks of God's spiritual nation.

    As Peter said..... "God for the first time turned his attention to the nations to take out of them a people for his name." (Acts 15:14) So before God opened up the opportunity for Gentiles to come into his nation, Israel had his exclusive attention. He so wanted them to benefit form his promise to Abraham, but those stiff necked people couldn't be corrected...and apparently, still can't.
     
  8. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    LOL, you're doing it again...what does it really say in context?

    "If he [Jesus] were on earth, he would not be a priest, since there are already men who offer the gifts according to the Law. 5 These men are offering sacred service in a typical representation and a shadow of the heavenly things; just as Moses, when about to construct the tent, was given the divine command: For He says: “See that you make all things after their pattern that was shown to you in the mountain.”[Exodus 25:9] 6 But now Jesus has obtained a more excellent ministry because he is also the mediator of a correspondingly better covenant, which has been legally established on better promises.

    7 If that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no need for a second. 8 For he does find fault with the people when he says: “‘Look! The days are coming,’ says Yahweh ‘when I will make with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah a new covenant. 9 It will not be like the covenant that I made with their forefathers on the day I took hold of their hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, because they did not remain in my covenant, so I stopped caring for them,’ says Yahweh." (Hebrews 8:4-9)


    According to Paul...yes.

    There is more than one Israel. (Galatians 6:16)

    The apostle Paul, in arguing that the Jews were mistaken in their pride of fleshly descent and in relying on the works of the Law to find favor with God, said: “For he is not a Jew who is one on the outside, nor is circumcision that which is on the outside upon the flesh. But he is a Jew who is one on the inside, and his circumcision is that of the heart by spirit, and not by a written code. The praise of that one comes, not from men, but from God.” (Romans 2:28-29) Here Paul, by a play on the meaning of the name Judah, shows that the real basis for praise from God is being a servant of God from the heart, by spirit. Galatians 3:28 shows that there is no longer any favored nation.....people of faith in all nations are acceptable to God.
     
  9. Terry Sampson

    Terry Sampson Well-Known Member

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    That would be one of those factual distinctions that slips right by us goyim, wouldn't it?
     
  10. BilliardsBall

    BilliardsBall Veteran Member

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    Don't miss the emotional weight of the passage:

    1) Paul could not will away salvation
    2) He feels like he could choose to do so, however, going to Hell forever, if the Jewish people he loved would all be saved
    3) He loved the Jewish people despite their persecution and violence against him
    4) Romans 11:26 sums up that all the Jewish people here when Messiah Returns will be saved!
     
  11. Rival

    Rival Iiu em hotep.
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    To all intents and purposes Paul was Jewish. He was part of the Israelite tribe, to whom the Torah was given, and has just as much right to practice Torah as anyone from Judah, as do those from the other tribes. OP is swamped in Christian dogma.
     
  12. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I didn't see anything in that about the Kingdom so I suppose you are extrapolating in some way. I couldn't read it all; too long.
    I believe Christianity comes from Jesus who is mentioned.
     
  13. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I believe there is a wealth in that but then verse 6 said it failed to save people although the word was capable if people could have obeyed it.
     
  14. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I believe Paul has a Christian view of whom is Jewish. To him a Christian is a true Jew and one who is not a Christian is not.
     
  15. Terry Sampson

    Terry Sampson Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, ... it was close to 5:00 a.m. and I was half-awake when I posted my message. Consequently, I failed to excercise due diligence when processing reality. If I had, I'd have remembered that there's only one group/sect that I know of who quote anything from the latter pages of the Bible AND claim to be Israelite and use lions and/or "Judah" in their logo: Black Hebrew Israelites - Wikipedia
     
    #115 Terry Sampson, May 24, 2019
    Last edited: May 24, 2019
    • Winner Winner x 1
  16. robocop (actually)

    robocop (actually) Well-Known Member
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    It was just Jesus Christ that was telling them this I think.
     
  17. Niblo

    Niblo Active Member
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    Albert Barnes writes:

    Verse 3:

    ‘For I could wish’ … - This passage has been greatly controverted. Some have proposed to translate it, “I did wish,” as referring to a former state, when he renounced Christ, and sought to advance the interests of the nation by opposing and defying him. But to this interpretation there are insuperable objections.

    (1) the object of the apostle is not to state his former feelings, but his present attachment to his countrymen, and willingness to suffer for them.

    (2) the proper grammatical construction of the word used here is not I did wish, but I could desire; that is, if the thing were possible. It is not I do wish, or did wish, but I could desire ἠυχόμην ēuchomēn, implying that he was willing now to endure it; that his present love for them was so strong, that he would, if practicable, save them from the threatened ruin and apostasy.

    (3) it is not true that Paul ever did wish before his conversion to be accursed by Christ, that is, by the Messiah. He opposed Jesus of Nazareth; but he did not believe that he was the Messiah. At no time would he have wished to be devoted to destruction “by the Messiah,” or “by Christ.” Nothing would have been more terrible to a Jew; and Saul of Tarsus never doubted that he was the friend of the promised Messiah, and was advancing the true interests of his cause, and defending the hopes of his nation against an impostor. The word, therefore, expresses a feeling which the apostle had, when writing this Epistle, in regard to the condition and prospects of the nation.

    ‘Were accursed from Chest’ - Might be anathema by Christ ἀνάθεμα εἶναι ἀπὸ τοῦ Χριστοῦ anathema einai apo tou Christou. This passage has been much controverted. The word rendered “accursed” (anathema) properly means,

    (1) Anything that was set up, or “set apart,” or consecrated to the gods in the temples, as spoils of war, images, statues, etc. This is its Classical Greek meaning. It has a similar meaning among the Hebrews. It denoted what was set apart or consecrated to the service of God, as sacrifices or offerings of any kind. In this respect it is used to express the sense of the Hebrew word חרם cherem“ anything devoted to Yahweh, without the possibility of redemption.” Leviticus 27: 21; Leviticus 27: 29; Numbers 18: 14; Deuteronomy 7: 26; Joshua 6: 17-18; Joshua 7: 1; 1 Samuel 15: 21; Ezekiel 44: 29.

    (2) as what was thus dedicated to Yahweh was alienated from the use of him who devoted it, and was either burnt or slain and devoted to destruction as an offering, the word came to signify a devotion of any thing to destruction, or to complete ruin. And as whatever is devoted to destruction may be said to be subject to a curse, or to be accursed, the word comes to have this signification; 1 Kings 20: 42; Isaiah 34: 5. But in none of these cases does it denote eternal death. The idea, therefore, in these places is simply, “I could be willing to be destroyed, or devoted, to death, for the sake of my countrymen.” And the apostle evidently means to say that he would be willing to suffer the bitterest evils, to forego all pleasure, to endure any privation and toil, nay, to offer his life, so that he might be wholly devoted to sufferings, as an offering, if he might be the means of benefiting and saving the nation. For a similar case, see Exodus 32: 32. This does not mean that Paul would be willing to be damned forever. For, (1) The words do not imply that, and will not bear it

    (2) such a destruction could in no conceivable way benefit the Jews. (3) such a willingness is not and cannot be required. And, (4) it would be impious and absurd. No man has a right to be willing to be the “eternal enemy” of God; and no man ever yet was, or could be willing to endure everlasting torments.

    ‘From Christ’ - By Christ. Grotius thinks it means from the church of Christ. Others think it means “after the example of Christ;” and others, from Christ forever. But it evidently means that he was willing to be devoted by Christ; that is, to be regarded by him, and appointed by him, to suffering and death, if by that means he could save his countrymen. It was thus the highest expression of true patriotism and benevolence. It was an example for all Christians and Christian ministers. They should be willing to be devoted to pain, privation, toil, and death, if by that they could save others from ruin. My kinsmen … - My countrymen; all of whom he regarded as his kinsmen, or relations, as descended from the same ancestors. According to the flesh - By birth. They were of the same blood and parentage, though not now of the same religious belief.

    Verse 4:

    ‘Who are Israelites’ - Descended from Israel, or Jacob; honored by having such an ancestor, and by bearing a name so distinguished as that of his descendants. It was formerly the honorable appellation of the people of God.

    ‘To whom pertaineth’ - To whom it belongs. It was their elevated external privilege.

    ‘The adoption’ - Of the nation into the family of God, or to be regarded as His special people; Deuteronomy 7: 6.

    ‘And the glory’ - The symbol of the divine presence that attended them from Egypt, and that finally rested over the ark in the first temple - “the Shechinah;” Exodus 13: 21-22; Exodus 25: 22.

    ‘And the covenants’ - The various compacts or promises which had been made from time to time with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and with the nation; the pledges of the divine protection.

    ‘The giving of the law’ - On Mount Sinai; Psalm 147: 19.

    ‘And the service of God’ - The temple service; regarded by them as the pride and ornament of their nation.

    ‘And the promises’ - Of the Messiah; and of the spread of the true religion from them as a nation.

    (From: ‘The New Testament: Notes On The Whole Bible’).

    Make of this what you will!
     
  18. Terry Sampson

    Terry Sampson Well-Known Member

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    Y'know, I'm sure that that's not the most cockamamie thing you've ever said, ... but, IMHO, I suspect it gets right up there near the top of the list.
     
  19. Enoch07

    Enoch07 It's all a sick freaking joke.
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    There are some people who believe the Jews are evil. They use similar scripture to back it up. But they take that scripture out of context and miss apply it. I thought that is where the OP was going at the time. But I've since decided I don't think that is where he is headed. Though I could be wrong and he's just good at concealing it.
     
  20. Terry Sampson

    Terry Sampson Well-Known Member

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    See my post to Rival, #115 above.
     
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