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Featured Who understands and can explain the meaning of Romans 9:3-4?

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Amikam Israel, May 23, 2019.

  1. tayla

    tayla My dog's name is Tayla

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    Paul is being overly dramatic to emphasize how much he loves his people and wishes them to be saved.
     
  2. InChrist

    InChrist Free4ever

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    I think the the covenants, the giving of the law, the service of God, and the promises Paul was speaking of in verse 4 pertain to the chosen nation of Israel, not Christians.
     
  3. robocop (actually)

    robocop (actually) Well-Known Member
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    Too tired to talk about it tonight.
     
  4. Wandering Monk

    Wandering Monk Well-Known Member

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    Ephesians 2:12

    He uses the past tense: 12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
     
  5. Wandering Monk

    Wandering Monk Well-Known Member

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    I have been reading Augustine and the Jews by Dr. Paula Fredriksen {Augustine and the Jews | Yale University Press.)

    Professor Fredriksen brings out something interesting:

    'Antiquity had no word for "conversion," and conceptually the act itself was odd. Ancient gods traveled in the blood; ethnicity anchored piety. How then could an individual change his ancestors, his past and his traditions? The closest analogue in Roman society was legal adoption, another ritual creation of fictive kinship. Adoption was regulated and authorized by magistrates, who were themselves priests. An adopted person, crossing kinship lines, moved also from his own family's private religious obligations (which focused on ancestors) to assume those of his adoptive family." p. 26,27

    This might explain Paul's use of adoption language when speaking to Gentile believers. She also says that religious conversion in that era would have been understood in political terms and would have been seen as an act of disloyalty to former nation.
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  6. Amikam Israel

    Amikam Israel Israelite From the Tribe of Judah

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    Here's what the scriptures said:

    Where was Christians in that statement? Oh so he was saying that the Gentiles were without Christ for a time. Who are the Gentiles? Are Christians gentiles? Let's see:
    Although better sources could be used, even Wikipedia knows who the Gentiles are:

    Gentile - Wikipedia


    Whoa...so Gentile refers to someone who belongs to the same nation (Israel) and means non-Jew as in someone who is an Israelite but is from a tribe other than Judah? Is that what a Gentile is. You mean to tell me it has nothing to do with other nations or Christians? Who woulda thought? (It also said the other groups make claims). Food for thought.
     
  7. Kilk1

    Kilk1 Member

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    Just to make sure I understand, are you saying Romans 9:3-4 teaches that Israelites and not Gentiles will be saved? If so, how do you interpret the rest of the chapter? For example, what does verse 6 mean by saying "they are not all Israel who are of Israel" (NKJV, emphasis mine)? And most importantly, how do you explain the conclusion of the chapter, verses 30-33 (emphasis mine):

    30 What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness of faith; 31 but Israel, pursuing the law of righteousness, has not attained to the law of righteousness. 32 Why? Because they did not seek it by faith, but as it were, by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumbling stone. 33 As it is written:

    “Behold, I lay in Zion a stumbling stone and rock of offense,
    And whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.”
     
  8. Amikam Israel

    Amikam Israel Israelite From the Tribe of Judah

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    Who are the Gentiles? Do you know? If you check, I just explained who they are.
     
  9. Amikam Israel

    Amikam Israel Israelite From the Tribe of Judah

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    I updated post #1.
     
  10. Amikam Israel

    Amikam Israel Israelite From the Tribe of Judah

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    Those who are of Jewish ethnicity, Romans 9:3-4 does not apply to them. In other words, the adoption, the glory of God, covenants, service of God, and the promises do not apply to them. Therefore, they are not Israelites. The Israelites are the descendants of the people who were slaves in Egypt.
     
  11. Wandering Monk

    Wandering Monk Well-Known Member

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    Ruth was not a descendant of slaves from Egypt. Yet she became part of Israel: Your people shall be my people, and your God my God.
     
  12. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Why would Paul say that if the Jews were actually listening to the teachings of the one whom Paul recognized as their legitimate Messiah? He was afraid that their refusal to accept the Christ would exclude them from the promises God made to their forefathers...and he was right. As a former Pharisee, he knew what was needed to be saved. His countrymen were showing little inclination to listen to the truth....an ancient trait, unfortunately.

    But why was Israel chosen in the first place? Wasn't it only as a concession to Abraham, as a reward for his faithful course? It wasn't that his descendants were better people than any others, but simply that his Messiah had to come through a human family that became so numerous that they formed a nation, and out of that nation, in a specific tribe, Messiah would come. Jesus fulfilled the criteria.

    And they still fell to worshipping false gods.

    How many times did God have to punish them for breaching the terms of those covenants?
    The old covenant has ended and the new covenant (foretold in Jeremiah 31:31-34) was inaugurated through Jesus, on the night before his death.

    All of the first Christians were Jewish but they were not chosen from among the well educated ones. Jesus was sent only to the "lost sheep of the house of Israel"......why? Because their shepherds had neglected them and they were starving for spiritual nourishment and love. Jesus provided what they needed and took them into a new pen where they would be nurtured and fed.

    As I see it, they "were" his people but because of their conduct, they lost their place. God formed a new nation and transferred Israel's promises to them.

    Acts of the Apostles 15:14...
    "14 Shim‘on has told in detail what God did when he first began to show his concern for taking from among the Goyim a people to bear his name." (CJB)

    Gentiles would now fill the position as "a people to bear God's name". A name Israel refused to utter....a name no longer associated with Israel today.

    Only if they remained faithful...which they never did.

    If God rejected his wayward people and chose a new nation from among the Gentiles to bear his name, then literal Israel will not be saved.

    When the apostle Paul spoke of the "Israel of God" (Galatians 6:16) he was speaking about Jesus' followers, not the literal Jews who were guilty of setting up the murder of their own Messiah.

    Jesus had already determined their status from God's perspective.....
    "Yerushalayim! Yerushalayim! You kill the prophets! You stone those who are sent to you! How often I wanted to gather your children, just as a hen gathers her chickens under her wings, but you refused! 38 Look! God is abandoning your house to you, leaving it desolate. 39 For I tell you, from now on, you will not see me again until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of Adonai.’ (Matthew 23:37-39 CJB)

    God abandoned the Jews when he had fulfilled his promise to produce their Messiah. Their response to Jesus was the same as it had always been, don't repent and allow yourself to be corrected.....just silence the messenger.

    In two thousand years, have the Jews as a nation ever "blessed the one who came in the name of Adonai" (Yahweh) Thankfully individually, many Jews have come to accept that their Messiah did come, but the fleshly Jews still stubbornly deny his coming and refuse to take responsibility for his murder.

    Oh please... there has to be repentance in order for God to forgive sins....since when has Israel ever repented of their grossest sin? When will they turn to Jesus as the Christ and become his disciples? Not any time soon I'll wager.

    This is exactly the same hole that the Pharisees fell into in Jesus' day.

    John the Baptist showed God's response to them....
    "But when Yochanan saw many of the P’rushim and Tz’dukim coming to be immersed by him, he said to them, “You snakes! Who warned you to escape the coming punishment? 8 If you have really turned from your sins to God, produce fruit that will prove it! 9 And don’t suppose you can comfort yourselves by saying, ‘Avraham is our father’! For I tell you that God can raise up for Avraham sons from these stones! 10 Already the axe is at the root of the trees, ready to strike; every tree that doesn’t produce good fruit will be chopped down and thrown in the fire!" (Matthew 3:7-10 CJB)

    The Israel of God today is not the fleshly Jews...it is the chosen ones among the disciples of Christ Jesus.
    Assuming that because one is a son of Abraham is self-delusion according to John.

    So, I'm sorry but everything you have written is simply not true. Your assertions have no weight with Christians at all. Jesus is "the way the truth and the life....no one comes to God except through him".

    Its not too late.......yet.
     
    #92 Deeje, May 23, 2019
    Last edited: May 23, 2019
  13. Amikam Israel

    Amikam Israel Israelite From the Tribe of Judah

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    By marrying Boaz? No, she is who her father was. Her father was a Moabite, so she is also.

    but through her the lineage from David to Jesus continued. For example, her son was Obed. And who was Obed? An Israelite (not Moabite). Why? Because his father Boaz was an Israelite. Boaz violated the law by marrying an outsider. The story of Ruth only reveals the difficulty in keeping the laws but marrying does not change one's nationality.
     
  14. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Who was God talking about in Genesis 22:18 when he made his promise to Abraham?

    "And through your children shall be blessed all the nations of the world, because you hearkened to My voice." (Tanach)

    All the nations of the world are not Jews. But through Abraham's children, all those nations would be blessed. The Jews as the vehicle for the Messiah would accomplish that. But they did not live up to their promise to obey their God.

    Exodus 19:5-6...
    "And now, if you obey Me and keep My covenant, you shall be to Me a treasure out of all peoples, for Mine is the entire earth.

    6 And you shall be to Me a kingdom of princes and a holy nation.' These are the words that you shall speak to the children of Israel."
    (Tanach)

    Did Israel obey God and keep his covenant? That was the proviso...see the word "if"...its a little word with a large meaning. If they did not obey Yahweh and keep his covenant, then the promise would be withdrawn. They would not become "a kingdom of princes and a holy nation". As Jesus said...their house would be "left desolate".

    The Bible tells the story. Your own scripture carries the warning.
     
  15. Amikam Israel

    Amikam Israel Israelite From the Tribe of Judah

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    Ye (as in typical christians) say:
    Bible says:

    Ye say:
    Romans 3:1-4
    What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision? Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God. For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect? God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

    Probably, but Jewish (them who say they are jews and are not - Revelation 2:9 & Revelation 3:9) are not Israelites. Christians (other nations who want kingdom) are not Israelites.

    Ye say:
    And yet no matter what ye say, Acts 5:31 is still true. Repentance will still be given to Israel. Why? because that's what the scriptures hath said. Doth ye not see what ye say is inconsistent with what the bible say?

    Ye say:
    Who are the Gentiles? Do you even know? Check what this link reveals:
    Who understands and can explain the meaning of Romans 9:3-4?

    Ye say

    Bible says:
    What remnant and what grace?

    Oh so God of Israel is going to gather the remnant of his people in the sight of the other nations and bring the remnant of Israel back to their homeland. Oh that's what its saying. Never said anything about doing anything for Christians. By the way, you have to be in the flesh in order to dwell in the land. The heathen are the so-called Christians (other nations who want the Kingdom).


    Whoa, look at that. The word was only sent to Israel. This is Paul preaching.


    Christ is the grace, the savior of Israel. Christ is the savior of Israel only:


    Christ is always for Israel. Show me where this is contrary anywhere. Christ was about his father's business. To gather the remnant of Israel. Paul continued Christ's work, gathering the remnant of Israel. There is no other gospel or doctrine besides this. Any other preaching besides gathering the remnant of Israel is the lie.

    Oh Jesus was speaking to the JEWS when he said If ye continue in my word, ye are my disciples. Wait was he speaking to other nations or Christians? Nay. If he was, script and verse please.
     
    #95 Amikam Israel, May 23, 2019
    Last edited: May 23, 2019
  16. Amikam Israel

    Amikam Israel Israelite From the Tribe of Judah

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    Obviously you do not understand the New Testament. What is the new covenant that God made with the house of Israel? Let's see:


    Is this consistent with what Jeremiah said in the Old Testament regarding the same new covenant?

    Oh the new covenant is with the house of Israel and the house of Judah. Wait, ye thought that God had cast away the Jews, but the bible says that the house of Judah is part of the new covenant so hath he cast away the Jews? God forbid. There is only one truth (Israel's Laws) Psalms 119:142 , one doctrine (the gathering of the remnant of Israel) all the prophets of God , one God (of Israel) Luke 1:68 , one faith (in God; that he will save Israel bring them back to their homeland) Mark 11:22 and one baptism (Israel repenting) Luke 3:3
     
    #96 Amikam Israel, May 23, 2019
    Last edited: May 24, 2019
  17. Enoch07

    Enoch07 It's all a sick freaking joke.
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    Quick question @Amikam Israel

    Does John 8 have relevance? You can PM me the answer if you don't want to answer publicly.
     
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  18. Amikam Israel

    Amikam Israel Israelite From the Tribe of Judah

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    Does John 8 have relevance to what exactly? Can you be more specific please? What relevance does it have for you?
     
  19. Enoch07

    Enoch07 It's all a sick freaking joke.
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    To the subject of your OP.

    I'm guessing not since you do not immediately see the connection.

    No worries,

    Carry on!
     
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  20. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

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    It's pretty self explanatory. What do you not understand?
     
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