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Featured Who is Baháʼu'lláh?

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Neuropteron, Dec 16, 2019.

  1. InvestigateTruth

    InvestigateTruth Well-Known Member

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    Just out of curiosity, do you believe that , the Bible teaches, in order to go to heaven, you would have to be resurrected with glorified bodies? I have heard that from other Christian's many times. If that is the case, and you believe that Jesus after resurrection, had a glorified body, and this will happen to the Christian's when Christ returns to take them to heaven, then how do you explain Moses and Elijah going to heaven without resurrection and glorification of the body?
     
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  2. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg World Citizen
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    I will expand upon the comment.

    I see people have placed boundaries, and are limited by those boundaries, for some it is a Name and their perception of that Name.

    I see Christ is all names, which in turn allows for greater expansion of our vision of a boundless eternal cosmos, inclusive of all God's Messengers.

    Thus our perception of the unlimited and unconstrained, ironically is limited by our own take on reality. Much like men before they travelled to the stars. They held to earth being the centre of the universe and now they know how small we really are. Holding on to One Name of God is like holding on to earth as the centre of the universe.

    Thus I return to the quote posted. All this we talk about, is but One Lamp and there are 100,000,000 more. No I can not fathom the extent, no one can, but we one and all place our own limits upon creation.

    I see In your posts that you hold to the perception that God is not Found in Messengers that others have embraced are from God, to me that is but a veil Christ warned against, it is placing self imposed limits on creation.

    Regards Tony
     
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  3. adrian009

    adrian009 Well-Known Member
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    My comment is an observation, not an accusation.

    We've talked at length about 1 Corinthians 15, mostly how they support your assertion that Paul is talking about a literal resurrection as opposed to being an theological narrative used to explain spiritual life through Christ both in this world and the next. Then at the end of this chapter we have verses you suggest are talking about life after death.

    Would you explain what these verses mean Terry? What do you believe St Paul is saying about life after death and the nature of our imperishable bodies after death?

    What do you think Jesus meant when He said "My kingdom is not of this world"?
     
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  4. Terry Sampson

    Terry Sampson Well-Known Member

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    And in your statement, to wit:
    I see heresy. How so? Because I read in Matthew 24:
    • 23 “Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There!’ do not believe it.
    • 24 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.
    • 25 See, I have told you beforehand.
    • 26 “Therefore if they say to you, ‘Look, He is in the desert!’ do not go out; or ‘Look, He is in the inner rooms!’ do not believe it.
    • 27 For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.
    • 28 For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together.
     
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  5. Terry Sampson

    Terry Sampson Well-Known Member

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    IMO, the precise nature of post-mortal existence and the physical transformation (i.e. the actual physics involved in it) are--so far as I know--speculative at best. Assuming that there is such an existence [which I do] and that nobody still in this world bodily has him-/herself undergone the theoretical transformation necessary to exist in Jesus' kingdom which is not of this world, I'm inclined to believe that the important part is the transformation (i.e. the glorification). With Paul, I think "not all will die, but all will be changed": the imperishable body seems necessary and precisely what it is seems, IMO, debatable ... to no end.

    • I do, indeed, believe that Jesus had "a glorified body", i.e. a transformed/imperishable body. As for Christians getting one, I suspect that many of us are going to be disappointed, to say the least: "Many are called, few are chosen."
    • Moses' death is described in two places:
      • Deuteronomy 34:
        • 1 Now Moses went up from the plains of Moab to Mount Nebo, to the top of Pisgah, which is opposite Jericho. And the Lord showed him all the land, Gilead as far as Dan,
        • 2 and all Naphtali and the land of Ephraim and Manasseh, and all the land of Judah as far as the western sea,
        • 3 and the Negev and the plain in the valley of Jericho, the city of palm trees, as far as Zoar.
        • 4 Then the Lord said to him, “This is the land which I swore to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, saying, ‘I will give it to your descendants’; I have let you see it with your eyes, but you shall not go over there.”
        • 5 So Moses the servant of the Lord died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the Lord.
        • 6 And He buried him in the valley in the land of Moab, opposite Beth-peor; but no man knows his burial place to this day.
        • 7 Although Moses was one hundred and twenty years old when he died, his eye was not dim, nor his vigor abated. 8 So the sons of Israel wept for Moses in the plains of Moab thirty days; then the days of weeping and mourning for Moses came to an end.
      • Jude 1:
        • 9 But Michael the archangel, when he disputed with the devil and argued about the body of Moses, did not dare pronounce against him a railing judgment, but said, “The Lord rebuke you!”
      • Jude's story is clearly based on Jewish oral tradition. https://www.sefaria.org/search?q=Moses' death and angel&tab=text&tvar=1&tsort=relevance&svar=1&ssort=relevance. For a better discussion of the traditional Jewish views regarding post-mortal events in Moses' and Elijah's existence, I refer you to traditional Jews.
      • Deuteronomy briefly says: Moses died, God Himself buried him, and nobody knows where, but it says nothing about Moses' resurrection and glorification. The next time--in the Christian Scriptures--that I see Moses is at the Transfiguration on Mt. Tabor, which Abdu'l-Baha says didn't happen literally.
        • So, between Moses' death in Moab and his appearance in the Transfiguration, what happened?
          • The Baha'i view appears to be: "Nothing happened. Moses didn't literally make a post-mortal appearance with Jesus and Elijah.
          • My view is that Moses was resurrected and glorified, which enabled him to make a post-mortal appearance in the literal Transfiguration.
    • Elijah's "disappearance in a chariot that whisked him away" is described in
      • 2 Kings 2
        • 9 When they had crossed over, Elijah said to Elisha, “Ask what I shall do for you before I am taken from you.” And Elisha said, “Please, let a double portion of your spirit be upon me.”
        • 10 He said, “You have asked a hard thing. Nevertheless, if you see me when I am taken from you, it shall be so for you; but if not, it shall not be so.”
        • 11 As they were going along and talking, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire and horses of fire which separated the two of them. And Elijah went up by a whirlwind to heaven.
        • 12 Elisha saw it and cried out, “My father, my father, the chariots of Israel and its horsemen!” And he saw Elijah no more. Then he took hold of his own clothes and tore them in two pieces.
      • So, between the disappearance of a mortal Elijah in the fiery chariot and his post-mortal, glorified appearance at the Transfiguration, I believe a physical transformation occurred in which the perishable Elijah was transformed into an imperishable Elijah, and no clear evidence of a death, spiritual or material, and no clear evidence of a post-death resurrection, spiritual or material. And, I suspect, that's one of the reasons why Paul wrote in 1 Corinthians 15: " 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, ..."
     
  6. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg World Citizen
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    That is where we get to look for the True Christ's.

    I see that Christians use against others, what may be more applicable to their own situation.

    The carcass implies that is what has become of Christianity, the 30,000 diversions all saying they have their right way, they are the ones calling out in Christ's name, not a New Name. It is not the Muslim or the Baha'i, both who could be seen as the Eagles around the carcass.

    It is all a matter of our perception of One God.

    There is no Passage that can refute Baha'u'llah, that will not refute your own stance.

    I see it more productive for us to consider that we do worship the same God, even though we see It in different ways and live in Love, Harmony and Peace. To become fruits of the Spirit of Christ.

    Regards Tony
     
  7. Terry Sampson

    Terry Sampson Well-Known Member

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    All 58 verses?
    Screenshot_2019-12-29 John 18 36.png

    My guess is that the two words that you are stumbling over are "kingdom" and "world".

    In the Greek original, the word for "kingdom" is "βασιλεία". It may be helpful to think of the United Kingdom. Does it have a location on Earth or in some other non-earthly place in the universe? Last I heard, its location was on Earth. The interesting thing about kingdoms is that, when applied to human social groups, they have a readily recognizable monarch, be it a male or female. For instance, the current monarch of the United Kingdom is Queen Elizabeth II. Now suppose Queen Elizabeth appeared on the tellie one day and made the following announcement: "Citizens of the United Kingdom, I regret to inform you that I have just discovered that my kingdom is not of this world. Please accept my profuse apologies. Keep calm and carry on. Competent officials are seeking the proper regent of the United Kingdom." As I understand Jesus' words, he was saying something similar: i.e. he is not the regent of any earthly kingdom.

    Strong's Greek: 932. βασιλεία (basileia) -- kingdom, sovereignty, royal power

    Screenshot_2019-12-29 βασιλεία.png
     
    #207 Terry Sampson, Dec 29, 2019
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2019
  8. adrian009

    adrian009 Well-Known Member
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    Just the six verses you posted from 1 Corinthians 15:50-55 will be sufficient.

    OK. So a kingdom like an earthy kingdom and dominion but not of this world.

    When Jesus teaches His Disciples how to pray He says:

    Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.
    Matthew 6:10

    This sounds as if God is wanting to establish His heavenly kingdom on earth.
     
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  9. Neuropteron

    Neuropteron Active Member

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    Thank you for your extensive reply.
    My question was specifically aimed at clarifying which God Baha'u'llah was a representation of.
    The Bible reveals that there are many Gods. Even Satan is called "The God of this system". Some God's in the Bible are Marduk, Venus, Ninurta, Nebo, Nergal, Tiamatl, Namtaru, Asshur, Osiris... and many more.

    Only saying that a person has "but one God" without actually stating which one, is not a comprehensive statement.
    I found it indicative of Baha'u'llah cunfusion that although, as you say, he wrote so much, he was not able to elucidate this simple question.

    Is not a statement such as Exodus 18:11 a bit clearer? "Now I do know that Jehovah is greater than all the other Gods"
     
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  10. Terry Sampson

    Terry Sampson Well-Known Member

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    The prayer starts with: "Our Father in heaven, holy is your name." My paraphrase: "May You reign here and may what you desire be done on earth as it is done in heaven."

    What does God want?
    Jeremiah 17:
    • 5 Thus says the Lord:
      “Cursed is the man who trusts in man
      and makes flesh his strength,
      whose heart turns away from the Lord.
      6 He is like a shrub in the desert,
      and shall not see any good come.
      He shall dwell in the parched places of the wilderness,
      in an uninhabited salt land.

      7 “Blessed is the man who trusts in the Lord,
      whose trust is the Lord.
      8 He is like a tree planted by water,
      that sends out its roots by the stream,
      and does not fear when heat comes,
      for its leaves remain green,
      and is not anxious in the year of drought,
      for it does not cease to bear fruit.”
    I think it's safe to say that "complete trust in the LORD" did not exist everywhere on earth when Jesus taught his disciples the prayer and that it does not exist everywhere on earth today.
    When the LORD's reign comes and His desire is satisfied on earth as it is in heaven, one can say the LORD reigns on earth as He reigns in heaven.
     
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  11. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg World Citizen
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    I see that a Metephor is needed to explain how a Baha'i sees the One Almighty God.

    Let's say what comes from God, the Holy Spirit is pure white light. In this world a lens is required to look at the light, or we become blinded, we are unable to sustain the intensity of the Light. Thus the light is refracted and now we see all the colours of the rainbow, each in itself from the same source.

    Those colours to us are all the Names of the Prophets and Messengers from God.

    The day of Jehovah, which is this day, is the day when we see that God is One and that we all do indeed worship the same God. It is up to us only to shift out frame of reference beyond a Single Name and see Christ in all Names.

    To me that explains the sheep of many folds, that in the day of Jehovah, there will be one fold, with One Shepherd. We have found our Oneness.

    RegardsTony
     
  12. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg World Citizen
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    All those that were martyrs of a God given Revelation, chose that path as they had complete trust in the Message they have embraced.

    All Prophets from God have inspired this trust.

    Amazing thing is, that it can also be used by the deceitful, thus once again, it is always a choice.

    I would offer there are many that now live that have complete trust in God.

    Regards Tony
     
  13. Terry Sampson

    Terry Sampson Well-Known Member

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    1 Cor, 15:50. "Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable."
    Parallel terms:
    • flesh and blood: that which is perishable, mortality: immortality
    • kingdom of God: that which is imperishable
    The neurobiological nature of mortals is perishable. Maslow's rudimentary "Hierarchy of Needs" is based on his research into varieties of human motive-driven behavior. The Diagnostic Statistical Manual-V is, IMO, recognition of the fragility of personalities. And Alan S. Cowen and Dacher Keltner's article in Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences Sep 2017, entitled
    "Self-report captures 27 distinct categories of emotion bridged by continuous gradients", is just one of many that identifies the quiver-full of emotions that influence our decisions day by day. Such is the nature of the "flesh and blood" which God would engage in a covenant relationship.

    Here, I am reminded of Paul's lament in Romans 7:19-25:
    • 19 For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want.
    • 20 But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.
    • 21 I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good.
    • 22 For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man,
    • 23 but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members.
    • 24 Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death?
    • 25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.

    .
     
  14. Terry Sampson

    Terry Sampson Well-Known Member

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    Continued from my post #213.

    1 Cor, 15:51-52. "Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed."

    Knuckleheads seek out and follow pseudo-Christian astrologers who spout nonsense regarding the precise day and time of "the last trumpet's sound" when the dead will be raised imperishable. Instead, they should be taking comfort in the hope of a literal, brief transformation which Paul assures us will take place, resurrection or not.
     
  15. Terry Sampson

    Terry Sampson Well-Known Member

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    Continued from my post #214.

    1 Cor, 15:53. "For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality."

    In this verse, there are two things that merit comment, IMO.
    • The word "must".
      • The Greek word is "δεῖ" (day-ee) which is commonly translated: "it is necessary", "it is absolutely necessary", or "it is inevitable." It's a strong word, i.e. an emphatic word, no "if's" or "but's" about it kind of "must". First thought might be: who says that the perishable must put on the imperishable? who says that this mortal must put on immortality? The answer boils down to one person: Paul. You either believe him or you don't. You either accept his word for it or you don't.
      • Why do I accept Paul's word for the inevitability of the change from perishables to imperishables? Because I believe that he literally encountered and was literally addressed by the transformed, resurrected, and glorified Jesus of Nazareth who's perishable humanity had been crucified and entombed.
    • Paul speaks of "putting on the imperishable" and "putting on immortality." I prefer the "transformation" view, wherein the being who once was perishable is transformed into one who is imperishable. The difference, given our ignorance of the physics and precise physical process of the change, is moot and a matter for trivial pursuit.
     
  16. Terry Sampson

    Terry Sampson Well-Known Member

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    Continued from my post #215.

    1 Cor, 15:54-55. "54 But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, “Death is swallowed up in victory. 55 O death, where is your victory? O death, where is your sting?”

    In the Septuagint version of Hosea 13:14 it is written:
    • ἐκ χειρὸς ᾅδου ῥύσομαι αὐτοὺς καὶ ἐκ θανάτου λυτρώσομαι αὐτούς ποῦ ἡ δίκη σου θάνατε ποῦ τὸ κέντρον σου ᾅδη παράκλησις κέκρυπται ἀπὸ ὀφθαλμῶν μου
    • In English: From the hand (i.e. power) of Hades (i.e. Sheol, i.e.the grave) I will deliver/rescue/save them and from death I will redeem them. Where is the judgment/punishment of death? Where is the sting/goad of Hades (i.e. Sheol, i.e. the grave)? Pity/comfort (is) hidden from my eyes.
    • English Standard Version translation:
      "I shall ransom them from the power of Sheol;
      I shall redeem them from Death.
      O Death, where are your plagues?
      O Sheol, where is your sting?
      Compassion is hidden from my eyes.".
    So, in 54-55, Paul remembers and quotes (inaccurately)from the 14th verse of Hosea, in which God promises to put an end to the grave and death. It can be argued that Hosea's words entailed a figurative/metaphorical/symbolic end to the grave and to death. However, in Paul's hand, the verse is used literally, consistent with his whole 15th chapter of 1 Corinthians. And when does Paul say that the literal meaning of the promise given in Hosea 13:14 will take effect? When the perishable will have put on the imperishable and this mortal will have put on immortality.
     
    #216 Terry Sampson, Dec 30, 2019
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2019
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  17. adrian009

    adrian009 Well-Known Member
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    Thanks for your considered response to my request to interpret 1 Corinthians 15:50-55. I agree with most of what you have to say. I believe there is life after death and the imperishable part of our being that some might refer to as our soul ascends to heaven immediately upon death. That is the final trumpet sound is a metaphor for the announcement and fanfare accompanying our ascension to the world of God beyond this earthly abode. God alone can judge our souls and our fate. May the Grace of the Lord Jesus Christ be upon us. Peace.
     
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  18. Neuropteron

    Neuropteron Active Member

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    Hi,
    That is well said.
    Let us keep in mind that before this unity happens a cleansing, not a uniting, of false God's and those that worship them will occur. Isaiah 44:9-20 describes that in the day of Jehovah's dealing with idolatry, false worshippers would throw their worthless idols to the shrewmice and to the bats. "Woe to the one saying to the piece of wood" O do awake..." Those making dumb idols will become just like them. (Hab 2:19). Certainly harsh words, but they highlight the importance of making a distinction between the true God and the false ones. It's noteworthy that the scripture always refers to Gods in opposition to Jehovah as contemptible and valueless, and that he will never share his glory with them.
    1 Cor 10:14 Therefore my beloved one, flee from idolatry.

    Regards
     
  19. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I can't understand why. I believe philosophers want to make sense of what this world is like but that does not mean they are committed to following good sense. I think everyone should go to bed at 12 and get up at 8 but I am more comfortable getting up at 9.
     
  20. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    i believe I told a pastor once that there was a great deal of difference between knowing God personally and knowing about Him from reading the Bible.
     
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