Who is Baháʼu'lláh?

[Terry Sampson]

Don’t you think that’s a strange way of determining someone’s identity?

Really? Ha! I believe in Jesus' literal resurrection and ascension, and you're asking me if I think seeing and touching the wounds of the resurrected Jesus might be "a strange way of determining his identity"? Don't you think it's a little late to be worrying about whether or not something I believe is strange?

If you saw someone who, last you saw him, was dead or dying, and whom you never expected to see again and who said, "Hi, Adrian, I died but I'm back", how would you go about verifying his claim?

 

[Terry Sampson]

This is the writings and opinion of the author Dr J E Esslemont. It is not part of the Baha’i Writings and just the opinion of an individual Baha’i. It carries no more weight than anything anyone else says and looks a little dated. OTOH the first five chapters were reviewed by Abdul-Baha prior to publication so has more weight.

Nice jump. You jumped right over the part where danieldemol said to me: "If spirits had mass we could weigh them. Do you put on weight when you are visited by the Holy Spirit?"
and I said to him:

(a) Either a spirit has some property that is commonly associated with matter, be it mass, energy, or both; or it does not.
(b) If it does not, the atheists are correct: physical death puts an end to perishable beings and Paul's "imperishable beings" doctrine is nonsense, physical post-death remains dissolve into "stardust", and the entity that I am ceases to exist. In which case, there is no such thing as the afterlife.
(c) If being ceases to be in the grave, Baha'i teaching isn't even close to accurate, much less relevant, as when it prattles on about the afterlife, ...

• The measure of agreement between this view, which is founded on careful scientific research, and that of the Bahá’í teachings, is truly remarkable.

And my opinions are the least of your worries. Baha'i nonsense is your bigger problem.

 

[Terry Sampson]

Once again just curious and interested in how you make sense of scriptures. So let’s consider this further.

• Elijah may have been reincarnated as John the Baptist.
  • Do you think John the Baptist knew he was Elijah?
    
  • Did anyone other than Jesus recognise who he was?
    
  • Do you think Jesus will return as Elijah did, reincarnated into a different human body?
• Then we have the other option which I agree is the more likely. John the Baptist was Elijah figuratively.
  • So the had a similar spirit, role or station.
    
  • So in that case would the Return of Christ also be figurative? A man who is Christ like as John the Baptist was Elijah like?

If Elijah was reincarnated as John the Baptist (which I do not believe happened), then:

1. I am not inclined to believe, in spite of wizanda's claims that he knows who he was before he came to our earth at this time, that John the Baptist knew he was Elijah.
2. I don't know of anyone who "recognized" that John the Baptist was the veritable reincarnation of Elijah himself.
3. Jesus better not return reincarnated into a different human body, because I, for one, will reject him and may ask questions later.

If, as I believe, John the Baptist was deemed, by others, to be an Elijah-like precursor to someone more important, then:

1. The question is: In what way was he Elijah-like?
2. The question is: What's your basis, i.e. your authority, for believing that a figurative Christ will return?

 

[Terry Sampson]

@adrian009

Regarding your previous interest in whether John the Baptist was a reincarnation of Elijah or a figurative Elijah, I suspect, but do not know for certain, what your opinion regarding "the Transfiguration of Jesus" is. The event is recorded in four different places:

• Matthew 17:1-8. After six days Jesus took with him Peter, James and John the brother of James, and led them up a high mountain by themselves. There he was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as the light. Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah, talking with Jesus.
  Peter said to Jesus, “Lord, it is good for us to be here. If you wish, I will put up three shelters—one for you, one for Moses and one for Elijah.”
  While he was still speaking, a bright cloud covered them, and a voice from the cloud said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased. Listen to him!”
  When the disciples heard this, they fell face down to the ground, terrified. But Jesus came and touched them. “Get up,” he said. “Don’t be afraid.” When they looked up, they saw no one except Jesus.
• Mark 9:2-8. After six days Jesus took Peter, James and John with him and led them up a high mountain, where they were all alone. There he was transfigured before them. His clothes became dazzling white, whiter than anyone in the world could bleach them. And there appeared before them Elijah and Moses, who were talking with Jesus.
  Peter said to Jesus, “Rabbi, it is good for us to be here. Let us put up three shelters—one for you, one for Moses and one for Elijah.” (He did not know what to say, they were so frightened.)
  Then a cloud appeared and covered them, and a voice came from the cloud: “This is my Son, whom I love. Listen to him!”
  Suddenly, when they looked around, they no longer saw anyone with them except Jesus.
• Luke 9:28:36. About eight days after Jesus said this, he took Peter, John and James with him and went up onto a mountain to pray. As he was praying, the appearance of his face changed, and his clothes became as bright as a flash of lightning. Two men, Moses and Elijah, appeared in glorious splendor, talking with Jesus. They spoke about his departure,[a] which he was about to bring to fulfillment at Jerusalem. Peter and his companions were very sleepy, but when they became fully awake, they saw his glory and the two men standing with him. As the men were leaving Jesus, Peter said to him, “Master, it is good for us to be here. Let us put up three shelters—one for you, one for Moses and one for Elijah.” (He did not know what he was saying.) While he was speaking, a cloud appeared and covered them, and they were afraid as they entered the cloud. A voice came from the cloud, saying, “This is my Son, whom I have chosen; listen to him.” When the voice had spoken, they found that Jesus was alone. The disciples kept this to themselves and did not tell anyone at that time what they had seen.
• 2 Peter 1:16-18. For we did not follow cleverly devised stories when we told you about the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ in power, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty. He received honor and glory from God the Father when the voice came to him from the Majestic Glory, saying, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.” We ourselves heard this voice that came from heaven when we were with him on the sacred mountain.

My comments:

• If John the Baptist was the reincarnated Elijah, how did Peter, John, and James know that it was Elijah who was talking with Jesus? Wouldn't they have thought it was John the Baptist talking with him?
• For that matter, how did the three disciples know that it was Elijah and Moses who spoke with Jesus? The disciples never met Elijah and Moses, so they wouldn't have known who the two men with Jesus were.
• Notice the presence of "bright light" and a cloud that envelopes them? And the Bat Qol [the Voice from Heaven]?
• Most importantly: Jesus {a Baha'i "Manifestation of God"] and Moses [another "Manifestation of God"] stand next to each other. Neat trick, eh?
• And what's with the Bat Qol saying:
  • “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased. Listen to him!”
  • “This is my Son, whom I love. Listen to him!”
  • “This is my Son, whom I have chosen; listen to him.”
  • “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.”
• And who was the Bat Qol referring to? and talking to?
  
• Jesus gets the royal treatment. Baha'u'llah? just gets a visit from "the Maid of Heaven" when he's in prison..

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Welcome to the forum. Neuropteron.

We Baha’is believe there is only one God. We also believe in the same God of the Christians and the Jews and do not accept any religions that worship Satan or evil or things like that.

Baha’u’llah was a descendant of Abraham through His wife Katurah and also a descendant of David through His father Jesse.

We Baha’is also ‘believe’ that Baha’u’llah- meaning the Glory of God’ was foretold by Jesus and in the Old Testament and in the Holy Books of other major religions.

We Baha’is ‘believe’ Him to be the Promised return of Jesus in the Glory of the Father that Christians have been awaiting. Other religions also foretell a Promised One. We Baha’is ‘believe’ these all are referring to the same Person, Baha’u’llah.

When Baha’u’llah made His announcement in Baghdad that He was the Promised One, He was exiled and imprisoned for 40 years eventually to Israel. There are prophecies in Micah ‘we Baha’is believe’ that refer to His exile.

Baha’u’llah wrote Tablets to the Kings and religious leaders of the world including Pope Pius IX regarding His claims to be the Messiah and that He came to establish the Kingdom of God.

Baha’is are from all nationalities, religions and races who have put aside their prejudices to work for the unity of humanity.

I hope you find this brief post about Who is Baha’u’llah helpful to you.

Clarification. Do bahai work with people of all nationalities/racies/religious etc or are the latter bahai's as well (if they agreed to the tenants of bahai faith)?

 

[Terry Sampson]

Ok so the perishable body transforms to an imperishable body so no body left on earth.

1. So are you saying that the same thing will happen to you?
2. That means if you are buried there will no trace of your body when you go to heaven.
3. As there’s no documented cases of anyone’s body just disappearing through supernatural means, does that mean you don’t go to heaven until the day of resurrection?
4. The Baha’i heaven is very real.
5. For Baha’is God is Omnipresent.
6. He is everywhere but we don’t experience Him through our five senses.
7. So there are realms and dimensions to our being that we can not perceive.
8. The soul of man can’t be detected with autopsy.
9. Yet it is the part of us that recognises the Excellence of our Creator.
10. That part of who we are departs the body at death and we experiences world’s of God that are imperceptible and incomprehensible in this world.
11. So perhaps heaven is all around us but we have no awareness.
12. So Baha’is believe the life of the soul begins at conception and our progress in this world determines our progress in the next life.
13. So the ecstasy of reuniting with God awaits the faithful soul and the torment of separation from God the one who has been faithless and selfish.

We now enter the realm of the Twilight Zone.
Regarding #__:

1. My simple answer is: "I don't know what will happen to me at death."
   
2. I see why you would think so, but again: Who knows what will happen to me? It's entirely possible that I will have so little imperishable body, if any, when I die that I am nothing more than a very faint imperishable version of former myself.
3. We're in the Twilight Zone, since when does the existence or absence of documentation matter?
4. I don't put any stock in the Baha'i's version of "heaven" or "reality": (a) because I'm pretty sure that I'd have to sift through hundreds, if not thousands, of pages to accumulate enough quotations from the Bab, Baha'u'llah, Abdu'l-Baha, and Shogi Effendi to come to any conclusion; and (b) following the Baha'i maxim, "anybody can say anything, but saying so doesn't make it true".
5. If Baha'i's think God is omnipresent, why don't they claim that Epimenides was a Manifestation of God and an early Messenger.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Clarification. Do bahai work with people of all nationalities/racies/religious etc or are the latter bahai's as well (if they agreed to the tenants of bahai faith)?

Im not sure if I understand your question. Baha’is consider all people as equal fellow human beings so we mix and work with all people.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Im not sure if I understand your question. Baha’is consider all people as equal fellow human beings so we mix and work with all people.

Oh. Do bahai work "with" people of all nationalities, religions (i.e. charity function) or is the bahai community made up of people of different nationalities and religions etc who agree with bahai tenets of faith?

 

[loverofhumanity]

Oh. Do bahai work "with" people of all nationalities, religions (i.e. charity function), etc or is the bahai community made up of people of different nationalities and religions etc who agree with bahai tenets of faith?

Ok. The ‘Baha’i’ Community is comprised of people who believe in Baha’u’llah and the Baha’i Teachings and laws.

But a main part of being a Baha’i is to serve humanity so Baha’is for instance will work with Lifeline as Counsellors etc and other organisations helping people, children the poor, in whatever way we can. And also people can run Baha’i children’s classes or junior youth groups who are not Baha’is.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Ok. The ‘Baha’i’ Community is comprised of people who believe in Baha’u’llah and the Baha’i Teachings and laws.

But a main part of being a Baha’i is to serve humanity so Baha’is for instance will work with Lifeline as Counsellors etc and other organisations helping people, children the poor, in whatever way we can. And also people can run Baha’i children’s classes or junior youth groups who are not Baha’is.

Thank you. The last part, are there different religions in the bahai faith that agree with bahai tenants? For example, a Pagan who agrees to bahai tenants would be bahai? Christian. Hindu. and so on?

 

[loverofhumanity]

Thank you. The last part, are there different religions in the bahai faith that agree with bahai tenants? For example, a Pagan who agrees to bahai tenants would be bahai? Christian. Hindu. and so on?

We have all come from different backgrounds. I’m from Atheist/ Christian, some are from pagan, others from Muslim or Hindu or Buddhist backgrounds. There is not one race or religion or background that Baha’is have not come from. It is probably the most diverse community in the world and the unique thing is we keep many of our beliefs not asked to give them up. So a Christian would add Muhammad and Buddha and Krishna as well as Baha’u’llah to his beliefs. A Jew would accept Christ and so on, it’s a massive reconciliation of all the worlds religions by accepting the Founders of each as having come from the same God.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

We have all come from different backgrounds. I’m from Atheist/ Christian, some are from pagan, others from Muslim or Hindu or Buddhist backgrounds. There is not one race or religion or background that Baha’is have not come from. It is probably the most diverse community in the world and the unique thing is we keep many of our beliefs not asked to give them up. So a Christian would add Muhammad and Buddha and Krishna as well as Baha’u’llah to his beliefs. A Jew would accept Christ and so on, it’s a massive reconciliation of all the worlds religions by accepting the Founders of each as having come from the same God.

Hm. Sounds like Unitarian Universalism but with us, we don't have the god part as a central theme. So, when we come as a unit, it's not a god thing. Other than that, it sounds similar.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Hm. Sounds like Unitarian Universalism but with us, we don't have the god part as a central theme. So, when we come as a unit, it's not a god thing. Other than that, it sounds similar.

The important thing is the love because love causes unity and harmony. Whatever a person believes or doesn’t believe doesn’t really matter at all and shouldn’t matter. What really matters is that we can be friends to the whole human race and treat all with kindness and welcome all as one.


If you desire with all your heart, friendship with every race on earth, your thought, spiritual and positive, will spread; it will become the desire of others, growing stronger and stronger, until it reaches the minds of all men. (Baha’i writings)

 

[Muffled]

Good.
Sadly, Bahauallah's claims, that he is a manifestation of God etc, are not proven. Bahauallah was of a rich and influential family with connections to Russian diplomats, a combination which probably kept him alive and in comfort despite being an apostate of Shia Islam.

We can show that he often discarded his own tenets for his own benefit.

Enough

I believe I don't know how one determines that. As far as I can tell his views are not any more or less erroneous about Islam than those of other Muslims or are you simply saying that he isn't a Shiite?

 

[oldbadger]

I believe I don't know how one determines that. As far as I can tell his views are not any more or less erroneous about Islam than those of other Muslims or are you simply saying that he isn't a Shiite?

No...
I'm saying that to ask all your followers to do things that you don't so is not massively high in integrity.

Also, how can his views about Islam be similar to other Muslims if he is an apostate?

 

[oldbadger]

The important thing is the love because love causes unity and harmony. Whatever a person believes or doesn’t believe doesn’t really matter at all and shouldn’t matter. What really matters is that we can be friends to the whole human race and treat all with kindness and welcome all as one.


If you desire with all your heart, friendship with every race on earth, your thought, spiritual and positive, will spread; it will become the desire of others, growing stronger and stronger, until it reaches the minds of all men. (Baha’i writings)

The passage in italics contends with your own words. it says that your thought will reach all others, which is Bahai.

Those who are not Bahai will not be treated the same in a Bahai World.

 

[Muffled]

Neither are the claims of Jesus provable. Nobody can ever prove they are a Manifestation of God.

Can you prove that?

Show it then.

I believe the proof of His divinity lies in His creative miracles. Prophets did miracles but as far as I can remember none of them were creative.

 

[Muffled]

No...
I'm saying that to ask all your followers to do things that you don't so is not massively high in integrity.

Also, how can his views about Islam be similar to other Muslims if he is an apostate?

I believe that is what you can expect from a religious philosopher. He can tell you what he thinks but that doesn't necessarily mean he believes it.

I believe the fact that he grew up in a Muslim land means that he ought to have some knowledge of Islam and that has to be reflected in his thinking.

 

[loverofhumanity]

The passage in italics contends with your own words. it says that your thought will reach all others, which is Bahai.

Those who are not Bahai will not be treated the same in a Bahai World.

I understand this quote is about the oneness of humanity and love and friendship with every race on earth. It is inclusive of everyone.

 

[oldbadger]

I believe that is what you can expect from a religious philosopher. He can tell you what he thinks but that doesn't necessarily mean he believes it.

Well...... that would simply mean that such a person is a shallow BS with no integrity. I don't expect anything of the kind from philosophers. Your idea of a religious philosopher seems very bleak to me, a person whose word is worth nothing.

I simply mentioned that Bahauallah wrote laws which he did not keep himself.

I believe the fact that he grew up in a Muslim land means that he ought to have some knowledge of Islam and that has to be reflected in his thinking.

So....... what?