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Featured Who Has the truth? Who Will Bring World Peace?

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Deeje, Feb 21, 2019.

  1. It Aint Necessarily So

    It Aint Necessarily So Well-Known Member
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    Why are you insulted by those who disagree with you? I'm not. You and I seem to disagree on just about anything we discuss, but I am not insulted by your opinions. Don't you consider our faceless, long-distance interaction an association?

    But you just said that you wouldn't want to associate with those with whom you disagree. How does one love one's children when she doesn't want to associate with them and is insulted by who they are?

    Creationists who question only the science that contradicts their religious beliefs are not highly regarded. I don't consider you a moron even though you know almost no science.

    Many people have no need of religion or worshiping. Science is something to respect, not revere. It is merely a tool for understanding how the world works. Unlike religions, it doesn't attempt to tell you how to live or where you'll go after death.

    Why are they so hard to overlook? Tolerance is a core value in my worldview, but doesn't seem to have much place in yours. You write a lot about compliance, obedience, and disciplining. I'm not really interested in disciplining others except where I have a responsibility to, as with young children and pets, and even there, I don't like doing it. Self-discipline is a virtue, but that is something different.

    How can they be happy when there is suffering in the world? Isn't that what you ask me when I tell you that I am happy, which happiness you interpret as selfish indifference to the plight of others less fortunate? I guess if you're a Jehovah's Witness, then being happy isn't the character flaw that you condemn in others.

    Deal. I do operate by my own rules, and wouldn't turn that right over to many, much less strangers.

    And if you're willing to submit to the Jehovah's Witnesses expectations for your life, they will welcome you and gladly deposit your money with open arms.

    And what's the difference? If he seeks their company, will it be offered?

    Like when you discuss how it is a badge of honor to be the victims of prejudice against your church.

    Not according to @RedhorseWoman and others. Your psychology and writing indicate that the church that informed it is also authoritarian. It is very different from say @adrian009 's and @Tony Bristow-Stagg 's , or mine. Some people prefer structure like that. Such people might be receptive to having careers in the military. Others find such environments excessively restrictive.

    That doesn't sound very loving.

    You recently asked me why would one love the world if it is passing away. Doesn't your faith teach that because your husband is not with the Jehovah's witnesses, that he will not see paradise? How does that work when it's your husband?

    Of course He won't. He never does, just like a nonexistent god.

    How many times have you written that your god will not intervene in some matter or other? Isn't that what we would expect if this god didn't exist? How many times have I asked you about that? Whatever the number, it's exactly the same as the number of times you have evaded commenting about it - about a half dozen

    So even Jesus is not allowed to think or make decisions for himself?

    I like their god better. If I had to pick one to worship, it would be a kind and gentle god of my own making. Why not? Faith lets one decide such things.

    The objections would be about what you do to yourselves, not outsiders. As long as a denomination doesn't try to control my life or impose its values on me, I have no complaint with it.

    But that is not the complaint. It's the attitude of aloofness and superiority. You feel superior to me. Why else would you depict and judge me so uncharitably?
     
    #281 It Aint Necessarily So, Mar 1, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2019
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  2. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    I do not have time to read through the whole article right now. I was asking specifically for criticism of Baha'u'llah.

    Regarding criticism of Baha'u'llah, I guess you are referring to the Claims of Divinity. I read it.

    Baha'u'llah never claimed to be God and He disclaimed it on several occasions. Baha'u'llah never claimed to be the incarnation of the Father as the article states. He said that God cannot ever incarnate His Essence and reveal it to man.

    I have the Writings of Baha'u'llah to prove what I am saying, but I won't post those to you because I know you do not like me posting His Writings to you.
     
  3. adrian009

    adrian009 Well-Known Member
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    Interesting post. Lets take a step back and I will briefly share my personal perspective on Christianity generally and then in another post the Jehovah witnesses.

    In regards Christianity, Jesus was the real deal and the Christ that had been foretold in the Hebrew bible. However He did not fulfil all the prophecies. For example He clearly did not bring peace to the earth. That being said He transformed Judaism into a universal religion that has provided an essential understanding for humnaity as to the nature of God and our relationship with Him.

    The Gospels are authentic in substance, under God's protection and through them conveyed all that God desired about His Revelation through Christ. However it is a theological narrative and not to be taken literally.

    Christ appointed Peter as His successor and His primacy is recognised by the Baha'is. The Catholics are correct in that regard and subsequent Popes in the early days were very genuine and spiritual people in contrast to some subsequent Popes. However, Christianity ran into serious trouble by the fourth century when there was much bickering between the Christian leaders and schism was threatened on account of Arius. The Emperor Constantine became a Christian and presided over the first council of Nicea in 325 to resolve the dispute. Arius was essentially considered a heretic and the first draft of the Nicene creed was composed.

    Nicene Creed - Wikipedia

    Arius - Wikipedia

    This was an important document for unifying the church. However it encapsulated certain key theological errors that have persisted to this day. Some of these included the Trinity and a literal resurrection. Some of these errors were highlighed by Muhammad who revealed the Quran from 610-632. For reasons of wisdom God chose to establish a new religion based on Muhammad's Teachings rather than simply reform Christianity. The same thing had happened with Christ. Christ didn't simply reform Judaism but established a new religion independant from it.

    While Christianity muddled along until the end of the Middle ages, Islam flourished with a rapid expansion of territory but also proliferation of the arts and sciences through the Islamic Golden Age.

    Islamic Golden Age - Wikipedia

    This revolution of thinking made the Islamic empire under the Abbasids the most advanced on the planet. Its contributions to all branches of knowledge are undeniable to any serious student of history. It was the Islamic Golden Age that was arguably the most important factor in igniting the European Rennaisance. Europe then flourished with the development of arts and sciences while islam went into a slow decline. The stimulation of intellectual life led to the question of Christian orthodoxy. The Protestant movement took off as Europe was plunged into war and bloodshed with the schism from Catholicism. The unity of Christianity has never recovered despite the Catholic counter reformation.

    Counter-Reformation - Wikipedia

    From the Protestant movement came new insights. The Great Commission or the spreading of the Gospel as instructed by Christ continued and the colonial powers forged ahead in this regard, while in the process economically exploiting the countires they colonised and converted to Christianity.

    By the nineteenth century there was a real sense of change and hope for the future. As well as a vast development of technology this century saw the growth of movements for women's rights, abolition of slavery, the establishment of democracy, racial equality along with many other important social changes. Within both Christianity and Islam there was a sense Messianic expectation. For the Muslims it was the Mahdi or return of the twelve Imam.

    Mahdi - Wikipedia

    For the Christians the return of Christ.

    Second Coming - Wikipedia

    The Millerites were an important group in America that expected the Return of Christ and William Miller calculated the date 1844 based on the book of Daniel and Revelation.

    [​IMG]

    William Miller (preacher) - Wikipedia

    Of course this date coincides with the birth of the Baha'i Revelation. This went unnoticed by the Millerites and the great disappointment followed.

    William Miller (preacher) - Wikipedia
     
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  4. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    IANS it isn't my judgment that you need to worry about. I am nobody, but I have obviously struck a nerve and you have responded accordingly. That was not my intention as I only mentioned things you had said about yourself, back to you. I don't know you and you don't know me. I believe that God knows both of us, better than we know ourselves.

    You will never accept the answers I provide to any of that, so suffice it to say you are free to go and enjoy the life and the beliefs that you have chosen.

    Your trust is in men of science and mine is in men of faith.
    Never the twain shall meet apparently. I believe that God allows us to prove ourselves to him. "What" we prove is up to us. All Christians were told to provide to do is preach the message which was to be a springboard that facilitates our choices. Like Jesus, the message is offered, not forced. All are free to accept or reject it.

    If JW's were 'aloof or superior', then we would be doing what most people in this world do....taking care of number one and not caring much about anyone else at all. But much of our free time is dedicated to visiting people at their homes with a personal message, or talking to them on the streets, or even over the Internet. Answering our detractors gives us an opportunity to set things straight. But going past the point of no return is a waste of time for both of us. It just descends into sniping, which is not very productive.

    You don't really want answers, you just want the Bible and Christianity to be wrong...that's OK. We can be as wrong as you need us to be. It makes no real difference to the outcome. It alters nothing about the warning message we issue, which applies equally to myself at the end of the day.

    I have nothing much more to say to you on the subject. Go in peace. (Matthew 10:11-15)
     
  5. RedhorseWoman

    RedhorseWoman Active Member

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    What you still seem to be refusing to acknowledge is the fact that many JWs leave the JW organization, not because they did anything wrong, but because they, generally through independent research, discovered that what they had been taught was truth was anything BUT truth. There is no "blame" to put onto themselves. However, you are spouting the typical JW line that those who leave have done something wrong or were "thrown out" because of some gross sin. It isn't true.



    One need not "find fault" in order to point out the flaws and failings of a religious institution. JWs point out the flaws and failings of other religions and claim that to do so is a loving thing. When others point out the flaws and failings of the JW organization, however, JWs don't consider that to be loving, but rather "fault finding." Can't have it both ways, Deeje. Either the JWs are "fault finding" and are wrong to criticize other religions, or criticizing the JW organization should be just as acceptable to them as their criticizing others.

    That unbaptized family member was lucky. Many others who were unbaptized when they left have stated that they were treated exactly like a baptized JW who was disfellowshipped. Typically, those JWs who committed some sort of sin tend to crawl back to the JW organization. They know that they have done something wrong and want to get back into the group. Those, however, who have left because of finding out that they have been duped by a religious publishing company aren't particularly eager to return to what they have learned is a false religion that causes immeasurable harm to many.

    You don't seem to understand the vows taken, do you? I know that MY baptism was a vow to Jehovah and Jesus--NOT to the JW organization. Leaving a man-made organization does NOT negate a vow made to God. Perhaps YOUR vow was one made with the new wording wherein the person vows loyalty to the organization. Mine was not. The new vows, I believe, were put into place mainly so that the WTS could avoid legal problems. That tends to be their focus--protect the corporation at all costs.



    I don't know of any ex-JWs who "throw barbs out of spite." Generally, criticizing the JW organization is done out of love (remember, we learned this as JWs) in order to inform people of how the JW organization works.
     
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  6. RedhorseWoman

    RedhorseWoman Active Member

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    That sounds very positive. Be careful and choose the right ones! :)
     
  7. Vinayaka

    Vinayaka devotee
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    We've always rented month to month, for that reason. We give a free months rent IF they stay a full 11 months. It's a bit of an incentive, I suppose.
     
  8. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    I have had 24 inquiries from my Craigslist ad so far, just since last night, so I have many prospective tenants to choose from... So far, I talked to two women at length and they both sound like good prospects.... Of course they have to really like the house as well, that is half the battle.... ;)
     
  9. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    Thanks, that is good to know... I now have 24 people who have contacted me just since I posted my Craigslist ad last night, so I do not for see a problem getting it rented, I just want to find the right fit. Not only do I have to like them, they have to like the house.
     
  10. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    I disagree. :D Jesus fulfilled all of the prophesies written about his role. He even purposely orchestrated some of the features so that they would be fulfilled as written.

    Jesus said at Luke 22:37..."For I tell you that what is written must be accomplished in me, namely, ‘He was counted with lawless ones.’ For this is being fulfilled concerning me.”

    If you listen to Jewish sources, of course you will get a different story. According to their interpretation of scripture, he did not fulfill any of the Messianic prophesies. Not because he didn't fulfill them, but because he didn't do so in the way they thought he should.

    Jesus gave his disciples spiritual liberation, whereas the religious leaders were expecting a powerful political leader who would liberate the Jews from the Roman yoke and re-establish God's Kingdom on earth....(with themselves in positions of authority, no doubt) Any wonder they rejected him....not to mention his repeated castigation of them as the world's worst hypocrites. (Matthew 23)

    I disagree again. :p Judaism has continued to be in denial about their Messiah and even about their flawed interpretation of scripture. They still think that their relationship with Abraham is significant, but Jesus put paid to that and so did John the Baptist before him. (Matthew 3:7-10; Matthew 23:37-39) Being a fleshly Jew was no longer important once the Messiah came. It is the reason why the Jews have not had a Temple since the destruction of the last one, as God never commanded it to be rebuilt.....because it was no longer necessary.

    God's promise to Abraham included all nations receiving a blessing through the sacrifice of this special agent of God who was to come through Abraham's family line, specifically through the tribe of Judah.

    Much of it is literal and some of it is figurative. Once you know the Bible's overall message, the differences become clear. It is one story from Genesis to Revelation....for us, we need no other prophets or scripture. All we need to know is contained in God's word. We don't need to bridge faiths or to ignore scripture to arrive at our truth. Its all in one book.....with only one genuine faith. (Ephesians 4:5-6)

    Disagree again. :) Peter was entrusted with the "keys of the Kingdom" but nowhere is it said that he was above any of the other apostles as a successor to Jesus. Do you recall the argument that the apostles kept having over who among them was the greatest? Jesus told them that the greatest among them was the servant. (Luke 22:24-27)

    The foundations of the heavenly Kingdom include all 12 apostles. (Revelation 21:14) None has supremacy.

    Since there were no "Popes" in original Christianity, I'm afraid that Roman Catholicism and Christianity are not remotely connected and never were, according to my understanding. Protestantism is just the daughters of the same mother.....all subscribe to the same core doctrines...the ones we discarded as unchristian teachings over 100 years ago.

    The same situation occurred in Judaism.....by the time Jesus arrived, it was not remotely like the faith that was given to Israel at Mount Sinai. Jewish rabbinical teachers had added so much in their interpretation of the Tanach that it no longer resembled what God taught. It did not reflect the reasonableness or spirit of the Law but turned it into nit-picking legalism.

    The devil has his way of leading men to distort the truth so that lies come to be accepted as doctrines....truth comes to be viewed as lies. (1 John 5:19) He is a master deceiver....believe it or not.

    Christianity was in trouble long before then. By the start of the second century, the foretold apostasy began to infiltrate to undermine the truth of the gospels. By the 4th century, they were in the right state of spiritual drowsiness to accept the counterfeit Christianity offered by Constantine. Christendom was born and the rest, as they say, is history. Divisions have never been mended, and after the Reformation, "Christianity" (or what passed for it) was divided even more into the ridiculous state it is in now. This was foretold, so no surprises there.

    Jesus did not come to start a new faith....he came to clean up the old one and to teach the "lost sheep" how to worship their God acceptably. By instituting a new covenant (something foretold in their scripture) on the night before his death, Jesus dispensed with the old covenant and released them from "the curse" of the Law. (Galatians 3:10-14) He had fulfilled it just as he said.

    To us, Jesus was God's last prophet and the Christian scriptures (particularly Revelation) were to take his disciples 1000 years into the future. Why would God confuse people by introducing prophets from Gentile religions when he had kept Israel screened off from what he identified as false worship? The promise to Abraham was to be carried through Isaac and Jacob, not Ishmael. Israel was the only nation with whom God made his covenant. They were the only ones under his Law.

    God has never backed Christendom because she is the mirror image of Judaism. When Jesus comes as judge he will reject the majority of Christians as those he "never knew" for the simple reason that they apostatized from the truth that he taught very early in the piece. (Matthew 7:21-23) Only at "the time of the end" was God going to 'cleanse and refine' his worshippers. Those who refused the cleansing would not be given insight or understanding about anything. (Daniel 12:4; 9-10) Christendom still teaches the same old lies.

    Your interpretation is interesting but far from the truth as I understand it. I do not see how anything that comes from Ishmael is even in the picture. He is clearly not the heir of the promise.

    Correction...they converted them to Christendom.....not Christianity. No one is "converted" to genuine Christianity at the point of a sword. o_O

    My brotherhood was in its infancy at the end of the 19th century...just beginning to tackle the prophesies Jesus at Matthew 24. As time went on, more and more was revealed.

    The 'cleansing, whitening and refining' foretold by Daniel were processes that were going to take time and effort....but one by one, Christendom's doctrines were examined and discarded as false. We separated completely from Christendom, no longer having any beliefs in common with them.

    God did move people at that time, but out of it came my brotherhood, now a united global family who all accept the truths dispensed by the ones we regard as "the faithful and discreet slave" appointed by Jesus to "feed" his household their "food at the proper time". (Matthew 24:45) That meant that we got what we needed, when we needed it, gradually revealing what God's purpose was for his people in these last days. Did we make some mistakes? Sure we did, but it was only at the right time that things were clarified. (Proverbs 4:18)

    The events we see taking place since 1914 all fit in the scenario Jesus gave to identify the last days. It also fits in with the prophesies of Daniel and Revelation written over 400 years apart, yet still speaking about the same events.....leading to the "great day of God the Almighty"....Armageddon.

    This is what we are prepared for. The world at large is not.
     
  11. RedhorseWoman

    RedhorseWoman Active Member

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    A very big incentive, I would say.
     
  12. RedhorseWoman

    RedhorseWoman Active Member

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    Well, good luck, and I hope you find the perfect tenants quickly.
     
  13. adrian009

    adrian009 Well-Known Member
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    @Deeje ,

    Continuing on from earlier and we are considering Christianity in the nineteenth century, particularly in regards the Protestant movement from which the Jehovah Witness has emerged from though I doubt if you would consider it in those terms.

    [​IMG]

    So from the Reformation and the Protestant movement emerged a number of movements that are relevant and influential in regards the origins of the JWs. Those movements could best be categorised as:

    1/ The restoration movement, or an attempt to bring Christianity back to its original and pure form recognising that it had become corrupt.
    2/ Adventism, particularly in regards the advent of Christ
    3/ Non-Trinatariansim

    [​IMG]

    Christian denomination - Wikipedia

    1/ In regards the restoration movement:

    Restorationism, also described as Christian primitivism, is the belief that Christianity has been or should be restored along the lines of what is known about the apostolic early church, which restorationists see as the search for a purer and more ancient form of the religion. Fundamentally, "this vision seeks to correct faults or deficiencies (in the church) by appealing to the primitive church as a normative model."

    Efforts to restore an earlier, purer form of Christianity are often a response to denominationalism. As Rubel Shelly put it, the "motive behind all restoration movements is to tear down the walls of separation by a return to the practice of the original, essential and universal features of the Christian religion."Different groups have tried to implement the restorationist vision in a variety of ways; for instance, some have focused on the structure and practice of the church, others on the ethical life of the church, and others on the direct experience of the Holy Spirit in the life of the believer. The relative importance given to the restoration ideal, and the extent to which the full restoration of the early church is believed to have been achieved, also varies among groups.


    Restorationism - Wikipedia

    2/ Adventism is a Christian eschatological belief that looks for the imminent Second Coming of Jesus to inaugurate the Kingdom of God. This view involves the belief that Jesus will return to receive those who have died in Christ and those who are awaiting his return, and that they must be ready when he returns. Adventists are considered to be both restorationists and conservative Protestants.


    Restorationism - Wikipedia

    3/ Nontrinitarianism is a form of Christianity that rejects the mainstream Christian doctrine of the Trinity—the teaching that God is three distinct hypostases or persons who are coeternal, coequal, and indivisibly united in one being, or essence (from the Greek ousia). Certain religious groups that emerged during the Protestant Reformation have historically been known as antitrinitarian, but are not considered Protestant in popular discourse due to their nontrinitarian nature.

    Nontrinitarianism - Wikipedia

    All these factors in America combined to lead to the second great awakening:

    The ideal of restoring a "primitive" form of Christianity grew in popularity in the United States after the American Revolution. This desire to restore a purer form of Christianity played a role in the development of many groups during this period, known as the Second Great Awakening, including the Mormons, Baptists and Shakers.Several factors made the restoration sentiment particularly appealing during this time period.
    • To immigrants in the early 19th century, the land in America seemed pristine, edenic and undefiled - "the perfect place to recover pure, uncorrupted and original Christianity" - and the tradition-bound European churches seemed out of place in this new setting.[5]:90
    • The new American democracy seemed equally fresh and pure, a restoration of the kind of just government that God intended.[5]:90,91
    • Many believed that the new nation would usher in a new millennial age.
    • Independence from the traditional churches of Europe was appealing to many Americans who were enjoying a new political independence.
    • A primitive faith based on the Bible alone promised a way to sidestep the competing claims of all the many denominations available and find assurance of being right without the security of an established national church.
    Restorationism - Wikipedia

    So with this historic background in mind enter Charles Taze Russell who formed a Bible study movement in the 1870s.

    Russell's congregations did not consider him to be the founder of a new religion, but that he helped in restoring true Christianity from the apostasy that Jesus and the Apostle Paul foretold. They believed that other Churches departed in a Great Apostasy from the original faith on major points, and that the original faith could be restored through a generally literal interpretation of the Bible and a sincere commitment to follow its teachings. They focused on several key doctrinal points that they considered a return to "primitive Christianity", derived from their interpretation of the Bible, including a rejection of trinitarianism, the immortality of the soul, and the definition of Hell as a place of eternal torment;[53] active proselytization; strict neutrality in political affairs; abstinence from warfare; and a belief in the imminent manifestation of the Kingdom of God (or World to Come) on Earth.

    Jehovah's Witnesses emerged as a distinct religious organization, maintaining control of Russell's Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society and other corporations. They continued to develop doctrines that they considered to be an improved restoration of first century Christianity, including increased emphasis on the use of Jehovah as God's personal name.

    Restorationism - Wikipedia

    Its a lot of cut and paste from Wikipedia but I think it captures some of the essential background and millieu leading to the formation of the Jehovah Witness movement.
     
  14. Vinayaka

    Vinayaka devotee
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    I really like having a good tenant that stays. It eliminates just so much hassle. We've been fairly lucky so far.
     
  15. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Well-Known Member

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    If you have time, and I hope you do, could you do something similar about how Islam evolved and eventually led to the sect of Shia that led to The Bab and Baha'u'llah?
     
  16. RedhorseWoman

    RedhorseWoman Active Member

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    Sounds good, doesn't it? JWs believe that everything they need to know is contained in God's word...or do they?

    Let's take a look at what the Watchtower says about this:

    Wow! Isn't that interesting? JWs do NOT believe that all they need is contained in God's word. They really believe that going to God's word alone will result in a person's rejecting the JW teachings and going back to what mainstream Christianity teaches. In order to know the "truth" JWs actually believe that a person must use Watchtower literature and NOT God's word alone.

    The Devil does have his way of leading men to distort the truth so that lies come to be accepted as doctrines, doesn't he? And truth comes to be viewed as lies...unless the person discards the Watchtower publications and leans solely on God's word, at which point as their own literature states, they will abandon JW doctrines.


    "Truths" dispensed by "the faithful and discreet slave" which could be and have been and will be "mistakes" (i.e. false) at many times. Does anyone see the irony in this?

    Since JW doctrine has at times reverted back to a previously discarded doctrine, can any JW truthfully state that this "food" being dispensed is "gradually revealing" anything at all? It's kind of like going out to the garbage bin to recover the food that was thrown out a few days ago because it had gone bad, reheating it, and giving it to your family while declaring that this is good, healthful food! Would you eat it and declare it good and nourishing?
     
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  17. RedhorseWoman

    RedhorseWoman Active Member

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    My mother was fairly lucky for quite awhile, but then things went downhill with several of the previously good tenants. We were also fairly lucky at times, but when we started having problems, we finally accepted the fact that we were really too soft and tried to give breaks to those who didn't deserve them, so we decided it was best to just get out of the landlord business.
     
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  18. Vinayaka

    Vinayaka devotee
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    We just got started. (about 5 years) Kids all moved out, so we had this big empty unused house, and we're too lazy to downsize, and I like my garden. So renting a couple of rooms was the obvious solution ... travel money.
     
  19. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg World Citizen
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    I am currently reading the Dawn Breakers and the introductory has geological charts and charts of succession in both Shia and Sunni.

    There is copyrighted issues I think.

    Regards Tony
     
  20. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2012
    Messages:
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    Ratings:
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    Religion:
    undecided
    adrian009 said:

    Hey, I'm well acquainted with the God of Abraham. He's the same God I worship too. :D Of course you don't believe that.
    If each religion describes and defines this One God differently, then it's not necessarily the same God.
     
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