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Who caused Satan or the devil rebel

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by upperroom, Oct 15, 2014.

  1. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    They gained the knowledge of now choosing for themselves what would be good and what would be evil without God's input.

    Satan never challenged God's power. Satan never said he was stronger than God.
    The issue was that one could be successful by turning aside from God's Law.
    If God used His power or force then it could be said that God was just a Big Bully bossing Adam and Eve around.
    Satan had No temptation in front of him. Satan failed in love and loyalty to his Father.
    Central is the universal question of divine sovereignty. Who governs best ?
    Satan and Adam made improper use of their free-will choices reasoning they could govern best.
    By Adam turning away from God Rule then Adam imitated the opposition: Satan.
    Eve was deceived by faulty reasoning or selfish reasoning which was more than just knowing good from evil.
    They had the freedom to act responsibly by staying away from the prohibited tree.
    Rather they took refuge in Satan's lie. Obey sin and Satan becomes your god by your own free-will choice.
    God was asking that they use their personal lives to live righteously and Not take (steal ) from His tree.
    They, like Satan, failed in love and loyalty to their Heavenly Father, their Life Giver.

    If you buy a new vehicle doesn't it come with warranty requirements ?______
    Meaning if something goes wrong it will be taken care of. However, that means the warranty requires us to keep up our part of the obligation in what is required.
    A&E were required to stay away from God's tree. They did Not keep their part of the requirement for living forever on earth.
    A&E chose to guide self, drive self, in that now they would self-determine for themselves what was good or what was bad.
    They were Not going to use God's Law as a guide, or as an instruction manual, as to what was right or wrong.
    Their standards would Now determine what was good and evil in their own eyes. God's rejected standard was put out of the picture.
    Mankind's history of choosing for himself what is good and bad has shown People Rule to be a failure.
    Mankind's rulership of what man determines of what is good and evil has failed to bring Peace on Earth.
     
  2. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    Yes, Adam is son of God - Luke 3:38 see also 1st Chronicles 1:1 because the first person named is Adam in that Jewish ancestral list.

    Yes, you are absolutely right in that Adam was Not created as immortal.
    Even the angels are mortal. - Angelic mortal Satan will be destroyed - Hebrews 2:14 B.
    Because Jesus died a faithful death Jesus was granted immortality - John 5:26; 6:53
    Only those called to heaven having a first or earlier resurrection - Rev. 20:6 - are like Jesus, then granted immortality.
    The majority of mankind will live forever on earth - Psalm 37:11,29 - and they will have the same original opportunity that was originally offered to Adam before his downfall. The opportunity to live forever on earth as long as obeying God's Law.
    Mortal Adam would forfeit his life only when he would break God's Law.
    Righteous mankind on earth - starting with the humble ' sheep ' of Matthew 25 vs 31,32,37 will have the same opportunity to have the freedom to act responsibility in order to live forever on earth as part of God's purpose for earth.
    So, action was essential in Eden, and action is essential to insure earth will be filled with honest-hearted mortal people .
    Jesus will take the action of Isaiah 11 vs 3,4 and Rev. 19 vs 11,15 to guarantee only righteous mortal people will dwell forever on earth.
    - Matthew 5:5; Psalm 37 vs 11,29
     
  3. Thief

    Thief Rogue Theologian

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    I simply read Genesis differently.
    To gain knowledge and then die....is natural .....to all of us.
    That included Adam and Eve.
     
  4. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    But gain what particular kind of knowledge.
    By Adam and Eve rejecting God's knowledge they were replacing God's knowledge of right and wrong with their human knowledge.
    They were now going to choose or decide for themselves what is right and wrong, good and bad or righteous and evil.
    The final result of their human thinking knowledge without including God is shown on the front page of every newspaper everyday.
    Pick up any newspaper and read about the bad news of men's kingdoms or governments whereas the Bible reads about the good news of God's kingdom government in the hands of Christ Jesus that will establish Peace on Earth and end death on earth.
    It was the ' breaking of the Law which came with the death penalty ' that brought un-natural death to them and us.
    There was No human death in Eden. Death came to the lawbreakers only ' after ' they broke God's Law.
    Since we are innocent of what father Adam brought upon us is why God sent Jesus to us to balance the Scales of Justice for us.
    If we could stop sinning we would Not die. Because we can Not stop sinning we die.
    We can Not resurrect oneself or another, so we need someone who can restore life to the dead. Jesus can and will - Rev. 1:18
    Please notice Isaiah 25:8 that death will have No victory.
    Revelation 21 vs 4,5 mentions that under Jesus' 1000-year rule over earth that enemy ' death ' will be No more.- 1st Cor. 15:26
    Mankind will see the return of the Genesis ' tree of life ' on earth for the healing of earth's nations - see Rev. 22:2; Isaiah 33:24
    So, except for those of Matthew 12:32; Hebrews 6 vs 4-6, the majority of mankind will be restored back to life.
    Some to heaven - Rev. 20:6 - but most people resurrected back to healthy physical life on earth. That is why Matthew 20:28 mentions that Jesus' ransom covers MANY and does Not say all. Even wicked Satan will be destroyed forever - Hebrews 2:14 B; Psalm 92:7
     
  5. Thief

    Thief Rogue Theologian

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    Man was created Day Six...as a species.
    No law, names, no garden......and he dies as did any other species.

    Adam is a chosen son of God.
    Altered in body and mind....and released into the environment.
    His bride was his twin sister.
    Eve had no navel.......she is a clone.

    Learning the difference between good and evil is essential.
    It is a grace.

    Walk in heaven among the angelic and do so ....without grace?
    I think not.

    Giving the 'experiment' a choice is the manner and means of certainty.....
    Curiosity, even as death is pending....
    To know...even if death is at hand...

    Absolutely essential.
     
  6. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    In this sin-filled system that we live in: death is essential, but according to Holy Scripture ' woe' ( including enemy death ) will end.
    Jesus, as King of God's governmental kingdom, will undo all sickness and death on earth.
    Our last enemy ' death ' will be brought to nothing according to 1st Corinthians 15:26
     
  7. Thief

    Thief Rogue Theologian

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    Death is essential in this scheme of physical life.
    All things in this world ...die.

    I believe the kingdom is of spirit.
    God is spirit.
    The sons of God are spirit.

    The kingdom is not of this world.....quoting the Carpenter.
     
    #507 Thief, Apr 27, 2015
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2015
  8. Monk Of Reason

    Monk Of Reason ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ

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    And you don't see this as knowledge gained?
    Why did he fail? If I am an engineer and I set up the perfect scenario and something fails whose fault is it? Why did a perfect being such as an angel become corrupted? And why is it the fault of the angel that he became corrupted? It seems that he was what he was.
    And why is that? Why did they fail? Simply saying they failed isn't a true answer as to "why?". If a man murdered his wife it wasn't simply because he chose to. There are always reasons.
    I see the opposite. Secular nations with high degree's of education and financial security with social responsibility all dictated by people who are given freedom and liberty. Those are the societies that seem to do the best. Those countries obsessed with god and pleasing god and living in fear of god and ruling in the name of god...those are the countries I don't want to live in. Those are the countries that are going down the drain.
     
  9. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    Yes, they gained knowledge. The knowledge of choosing for themselves what was right or wrong. The knowledge of choosing without God interfering in their choices. Now they would now have knowledge of sin's Law telling them to do wrong as being right.
    Satan had No temptation. Satan failed in love and loyalty to his God and Father
    Adam and Eve also failed in love and loyalty to their God and Father.
    James 1:14 explains that it is desire that leads to life or destruction.
    Each one is drawn out by his or her own desire. Choosing good desires leads to life everlasting. Choosing bad leads to destruction.

    The Engineer could work at perfecting his invention. Then back up his invention with a warranty.
    With Satan and Adam it was more like they did Not keep up their side of the warranty contract.
    A warranty requires us to keep up our obligations as to what is required to keep the invention running correctly.
    By listening to Satan or obeying Satan A&E made Satan as their 'god ' and for us.
    That sin-like birth defect or dent in us inherited from fallen-father Adam has only one fix or cure.
    Mankind will never be able to fix wrongdoing and death.
    Eve as the wife was deceived by Satan, whereas Adam murdered himself.
    Selfish desires in Eve drove her to choose to listen to Satan over Adam.
    Adam know full well eating would be his death. Instead of trusting in his Father, Adam chose a selfish route.

    Countries obsessed with god are going down the drain because they do Not worship God as Jesus instructed.
    The Bible as Instruction Manual is Not being put into effect. Mostly the clergy do political bidding in the name of god.
    Scripture teaches that religious people would be drying up before Jesus governs over earth. - Revelation 17,18
    Religious ' waters ' ( people ) are dying up spiritually and that is also a reason why such countries are going down the drain.
    Judgment starts with the ' House of God '. Religions claiming their religious house of Worship is God's house. -1st Peter 4:17
    Especially with Christendom has their religious house run afoul. So, first the political will turn on such religious groups before it turns on the rest of the world false religious groups.

    God's nation, at this time being, is a spiritual nation - 1st Peter 2:9,5 - It has No borders nor boundaries found on any map.
    Once Jesus governs over earth, then at that time, ALL nations of earth will have the benefits of Revelation 22:2
     
  10. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    .... and when the ' Carpenter ' resurrected dead people, the 'Carpenter ' did Not resurrect anyone to heaven.
    All the people Jesus' resurrected were restored back to healthy physical life on earth.
    Who was earth made for according to Psalm 115:16 ?_________
    Did you notice John 5:28 that Jesus calls people out of the graves.- Rev 1:18
    There are No tombs or graves in heaven, so aren't we talking about earth ?
    Did you also notice the ' future tense ' is used ' the hour is coming.....'
    That is why Acts 24:15 also uses the future tense that there ' is going to be ' a resurrection.....
    Those earthly resurrections will take place during Jesus' millennium-long day of governing over earth.
    Jesus' earthly resurrections were a small preview or coming attraction of what Jesus will be doing on a grand global scale during his 1000-year rule governing over earth. We do Not pray take me away to the kingdom, or pray take me up to the kingdom, but for the kingdom to come and God's will or purpose for heaven be done right here on earth. Was it ever God's will or purpose that people die in heaven, or get sick in heaven, or heaven be polluted, or filled with violence ?_______ By praying ' God's kingdom come ' we are praying for those same healthy peace-filled heavenly conditions to come and exist right here on earth.

    Before God sent Jesus to earth Jesus was a spirit Son of God.
    When God resurrected the dead Jesus out of hell Jesus was resurrected back into his spirit body.
    All angelic sons of God are spirit creations.
    Spirit persons or angels were all created before physical creation - Job 38: 7
    Adam had No pre-human spirit life. Adam went from non-life, to life, and returned back to non-life - Gen. 3:19

    Jesus opened up the way to heaven but only for some - Rev. 20:6 - and they are called saints or holy ones, Not angels- Daniel 7:18
    The majority of mankind will be restored back to healthy life on earth during the time Jesus governs over earth.
    God's kingdom is Not of this world of badness - Rev. 12 vs 9,12 - but of God's righteous new world with Jesus as King or Ruler for one thousand years over earth - 1st Cor. 15:26

    Please notice what God's kingdom will do according to Daniel 2:44 but replace all other kingdoms or governments on earth.
     
  11. Thief

    Thief Rogue Theologian

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    A miracle upon the flesh is a temporary as the flesh that received it.

    I have considered Lazarus.

    Poor guy.
    Awakens in the grave.
    Realizes he has been buried.

    He returns home to his family?.....his former life?
    I think not.

    His kin would never be able to look at him as they did before.
    Not his wife, his children or his neighbors.

    His constant meditation would be to that moment when he awoke in burial shroud.

    His only relief.....to return to the grave.

    and you think you have a handle on this?
     
  12. Greatest I am

    Greatest I am Well-Known Member

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    Total immoral rubbish.

    Eve was correct in eating of the tree of knowledge and rejecting God.

    It was God's plan from the beginning to have Adam and Eve eat the forbidden fruit. This can be demonstrated by the fact that the bible says that Jesus "was crucified from the foundations of the Earth," that is to say, God planned to crucify Jesus as atonement for sin before he even created human beings or God damned sin.

    1Peter 1:20 0 He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake.

    This indicates that Jesus had no choice.

    If God had not intended humans to sin from the beginning, why did he build into the Creation this "solution" for sin? Why create a solution for a problem you do not anticipate?

    God knew that the moment he said "don't eat from that tree," the die was cast. The eating was inevitable. Eve was merely following the plan.

    This then begs the question.

    What kind of God would plan and execute the murder of his own son when there was absolutely no need to?

    Only an insane God. That’s who.

    The cornerstone of Christianity is human sacrifice, thus showing it‘s immorality.

    One of Christianity's highest form of immorality is what they have done to women. They have denied them equality and subjugated them to men.

    As a woman, you should be ashamed of the God you promote and to then say that we need to embrace the immoral concept of substitutionary atonement shows just how deeply rooted in evil your theology is

    Repent from your immoral satanic ways sinner or end in the hell you wish for others.

    Regards
    DL
     
  13. Clear

    Clear Well-Known Member
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    Upper room asked in the OP : “We know who caused Adam and Eve rebelled....the question about Who caused Satan to rebel is rather ignored or silent. “



    Hi Upper Room, welcome to the forum. There is actually a great deal of early Judeo-Christian and Islamic literature describing the events and context surrounding the the motives for the fall of Satan from an angel of authority and power to become an enemy of God.

    The textual traditions describe in fair detail the plan of God to create worlds and inhabit the earth with mankind. As the inauguration of this plan draws near, God directs all spirits of mankind and angels to honor Adam for what Adam is about to do (i.e. inaugurate the Fathers Plan). Lucifer, feeling superior to Adam, refuses to do so.

    After refusing to honor Adam, whom he feels is inferior to him, and having his own plan and designing to create his own administration, he incites actual rebellion. In these early text, Satan is not cast out of heaven for mere disagreement, but for actual rebellion.

    If you want a quick summary of textual quotes for these points, from early Christian, Jewish, and Islamic texts, please let me know and I will provide a light overview. Though this is not the only controversy associated with Satan described in early textual traditions, it is by far the most famous and best documented in early Literature. In fact, it is one of the crossroads traditions that early Jewish, Christians, and Islamic Literature all agree upon.

    Though such traditions were common themes in the most ancient literature, the post-captivity Jews came to abandon both pre-Adamic traditions as well as all literature that contained pre-Adamic traditions and so these early traditions were lost to later Judaism. In Gen Rabba, the rabbinic Judaism taught their Jews : " IT is forbidden to inquire what existed before creation, as Moses distinctly tells us (Deut. 4. 32): 'Ask now of the days that are past which were before thee, since the day God created man upon earth.' Thus the scope of inquiry is limited to the time since the Creation.–(Gen. Rabba 1).

    For the “orthodox” among the rabbinic Jews who would have obeyed such edicts from the Rabbis, it would have only taken a single generation to abandon the early Jewish traditions regarding what happened before Adam was created, including the Purposes of God as to why he created worlds and mankind to inhabit them; the nature of mankind and themes regarding the fall of Lucifer and his motives for becoming an enemy to God and to mankind. Thus, post-captivity rabbinic Judaism no longer teaches these same traditions as pre-exilic Judaism did.


    Clear
    φινεδρσιω
     
    #513 Clear, Apr 29, 2015
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2015
  14. Greatest I am

    Greatest I am Well-Known Member

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    Who was there to record all that was happening in heaven?

    Regards
    DL
     
  15. Clear

    Clear Well-Known Member
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    Greatest I Am asked in post # 514 : “Who was there to record all that was happening in heaven?”

    I can’t tell if your question was directed at me.

    If it was, then remember that my comments were of a Historical nature and made in the context of EARLY Judeo-Christian textual worldviews where ALL spirits of mankind, angels, etc. were in a cognitive existence in the heavens before the world was ever made. Also, remember that ascension literature where prophets were taken into pre-creation heaven (either by vision – e.g. Abraham, Isaiah, etc. or literally – e.g. Enoch) was a very popular genre of literature for early Jews and Christians.

    An entire genre of early textual testimonies describe innumerable spirits existing in “heaven” before creation and, they describe what God intended to do with these innumerable spirits.

    For example, regarding his vision of pre-creation heaven. For example, Jewish Zohar says : “At the time that the Holy One, be blessed, was about to create the world, he decided to fashion all the souls which would in due course be dealt out to the children of men, .... Scrutinizing each, he saw that among them some would fall into evil ways in the world. Each one in it’s due time the Holy One, be blessed, bade come to him, and then said: “Go now, descend into this that this place, into this and this body.” (The Zohar - The Destiny of the Soul)

    God was in the midst of spirits of all the spirits who ever lived or will live on this earth according to such early texts.

    Enoch records : "No one could come near unto him [God the Father] from among those that surrounded the tens of millions (that stood) before him". (1 En 14:23). Enoch continues : Quote: "I saw a hundred thousand times a hundred thousand, ten million times ten million, an innumerable and uncountable (multitude) who stand before the glory of the Lord of the Spirits". (1 Enoch 40:1-2)"

    In this early Judeo-Christian worldview, The spirits of angels, mankind and God existed prior to mortality. God the Father’s plan included the education and moral advancement of the spirits of men. The culmination of creation of the material stars and planets and the preparation of the earth for inhabitation made the honoring of Adam, (who inaugurated the Fathers’ plan of populating the earth) quite logical in view of his pivotal role in God’s plan for mankind In these early textual witnesses, Lucifer’s “rebellion” involved much more than a simple refusal to “honor Adam”, but rather, in these early textual traditions, Lucifer’s “punishment” relates to his rebellion against the plan AND God himself. However, I agree that, even in early textual descriptions, Lucifer’s current “dominion” plays a “role” in God’s ultimate plan.

    I believe that the early Judeo-Christian beliefs were much more logical and contextually detailed and reasonable than later theories created and then adopted by the various christian movements.

    Do you want me to provide some early textual data and witnesses from ancient Judeo-Christian and Islamic texts which describe the early traditions?

    In any case, I hope your own spiritual journey is good.

    Clear
    φινεφιτζω
     
    #515 Clear, Apr 29, 2015
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2015
  16. Monk Of Reason

    Monk Of Reason ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ

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    Who programmed their desire? Or was it self created?
    Except in this case it is the product that failed. There was no buyer. Adam and Satan were both the product. If I order a Xerox machine for my workplace and it fails to work properly without having any other outside influence destroy it then the warrenty is still good. Your talking as if Satan and Adam (by extension us as well) are beings on the same level as god.
    I just don't see any evidence of this being true. You can believe it to be true but it doesn't make it any more factual than any other belief.
     
  17. Greatest I am

    Greatest I am Well-Known Member

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    "Do you want me to provide some early textual data and witnesses from ancient Judeo-Christian and Islamic texts which describe the early traditions?"

    Not required.

    My focus was what the canon says and to get too far from it has no value to me.

    My focus is literalists, not those who already know that they are talking about myths.

    Regards
    DL
     
  18. Greatest I am

    Greatest I am Well-Known Member

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    [QUO
    God had to program it as a part of his so called free choice to us.

    Be it Satan or man, God planned to have our sin nature dominant. That is why it is immoral and unjust for him to punish us.


    Christians are always trying to absolve God of moral culpability in the fall by whipping out their favorite "free will!", or “ it’s all man’s fault”.

    That is "God gave us free will and it was our free willed choices that caused our fall. Hence God is not blameworthy."

    But this simply avoids God's culpability as the author of Human Nature. Free will is only the ability to choose. It is not an explanation why anyone would want to choose "A" or "B" (bad or good action). An explanation for why Eve would even have the nature of "being vulnerable to being easily swayed by a serpent" and "desiring to eat a forbidden fruit" must lie in the nature God gave Eve in the first place. Hence God is culpable for deliberately making humans with a nature-inclined-to-fall, and "free will" means nothing as a response to this problem.

    If all sin by nature then, the sin nature is dominant. If not, we would have at least some who would not sin.

    Again, that is why it is immoral and unjust for him to punish us.

    Regards
    DL
     
  19. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    But isn't it true / factual that the Bible has been misused by clergy, etc .?
    Religion has been used for a force for good and bad.

    Satan and Adam programmed their own desire. They, like us, are free to choose. Each person is drawn out by their own desires.
    Most angels ( product ) did Not fail.
    Fallen Satan was the outside influence to destroy Adam and Eve.
    God has free will, but as with God it is free will for us to work within God's limits. We are free to act responsibility toward God.
     
  20. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    Angels have been created for promoting good thoughts in humans.
    Satan has been created for promoting evil thoughts in humans.
    Humans decide as to what they have to do good or evil.
    Satan was never an angel.
    It is in nature of Satan to rebel.

    Regards
     
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