Who caused Satan or the devil rebel

[URAVIP2ME]

Deut. 5:9 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me...

First of all, please keep in mind the Constitution of the Mosaic Law was only for one nation, only for the nation of ancient Israel.
Please see Exodus chapter 20 the first ten of over 600 commandments.

Deut. 5:9 is in connection to false worship ( idol worship - bow down ) as also earlier mentioned at Exodus 20 vs 4-6; 34 vs 4-7
Those particular Israelites were showing hatred toward God by their idol worship. ' those who hate me '
An example comes to mind was wicked king Manassah.
Although Manassah did finally repent, when his son Amon became king he followed the former idol-worship course of his father.
Then, Amon's grandsons and great grandson none of them showed love for God.
Because the parent set up false idol worship then likely succeeding generations likely followed in his footsteps.
Then, they reaped the bad outcome ( punishment ) of their idolatrous course they chose.

Even today a drugged parent can pass on defects ( punishment ) to the next generations because they reap what they sowed.
So, Not meaning punishment as we might think of discipline today, but punishment in that the ill effects of wrongdoing can affect the next few generations. So, one's actions good or bad can bring rewards or punishments upon the next generations.

There are always extenuating circumstances, but for the sake of illustration:
A thrifty grandfather might set aside a nice inheritance for his son and grandson, whereas a greedy grandfather might squander his money leaving nothing to sons or grandsons. The ' punishment ', so to speak, in that case would make life harder for that next generation. On the other hand, the blessing from the thrifty grandfather could make an easier start in life for the son or grandson.

It was God's love for the faithful ' forefathers ' why God had the Exodus and delivered the people out of Egypt - Deut. 4:37
Those who choose to do what is right, then God shows His loyal love to the ' thousandth generation ' of those who love Him and keep His commandments - Exodus 20:6; Deut. 5:10

The word ' father ' means: life giver.
Because Jesus is given the power of the resurrection - Rev. 1:18 - then Jesus will be ' eternal father ' to resurrected ones.
Only those individuals of Matthew 12:32; Hebrews 6:4-6 will Not have the benefits of Jesus' resurrection power.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Mmm .. many concepts appear to be contradictory ..
Take complex numbers, for example .. does the root of -1 exist?
We certainly have a responsibility to our children .. if the parents are careless, they might well follow in their footsteps..
..however, anybody who repents to Almighty God with sincerity will be forgiven..

Very nicely expressed ^above ^. It is the repenting with sincerity, and Not sincerity alone.
The religious Pharisees were very sincere in their false worship - Mark 7:3 - even washing their hands up to elbows before eating.
Sincerity alone did Not take them away from their wrong unscriptural human ideas - Mark 7:7,13; Matthew chapter 23.

 

[Thief]

Not sure if there is a line drawn for that distinction of rebellion.
Shall we say it was God drawing a line?

 

[Monk Of Reason]

First of all, please keep in mind the Constitution of the Mosaic Law was only for one nation, only for the nation of ancient Israel.
Please see Exodus chapter 20 the first ten of over 600 commandments.

Deut. 5:9 is in connection to false worship ( idol worship - bow down ) as also earlier mentioned at Exodus 20 vs 4-6; 34 vs 4-7
Those particular Israelites were showing hatred toward God by their idol worship. ' those who hate me '
An example comes to mind was wicked king Manassah.
Although Manassah did finally repent, when his son Amon became king he followed the former idol-worship course of his father.
Then, Amon's grandsons and great grandson none of them showed love for God.
Because the parent set up false idol worship then likely succeeding generations likely followed in his footsteps.
Then, they reaped the bad outcome ( punishment ) of their idolatrous course they chose.

Even today a drugged parent can pass on defects ( punishment ) to the next generations because they reap what they sowed.
So, Not meaning punishment as we might think of discipline today, but punishment in that the ill effects of wrongdoing can affect the next few generations. So, one's actions good or bad can bring rewards or punishments upon the next generations.

There are always extenuating circumstances, but for the sake of illustration:
A thrifty grandfather might set aside a nice inheritance for his son and grandson, whereas a greedy grandfather might squander his money leaving nothing to sons or grandsons. The ' punishment ', so to speak, in that case would make life harder for that next generation. On the other hand, the blessing from the thrifty grandfather could make an easier start in life for the son or grandson.

It was God's love for the faithful ' forefathers ' why God had the Exodus and delivered the people out of Egypt - Deut. 4:37
Those who choose to do what is right, then God shows His loyal love to the ' thousandth generation ' of those who love Him and keep His commandments - Exodus 20:6; Deut. 5:10

The word ' father ' means: life giver.
Because Jesus is given the power of the resurrection - Rev. 1:18 - then Jesus will be ' eternal father ' to resurrected ones.
Only those individuals of Matthew 12:32; Hebrews 6:4-6 will Not have the benefits of Jesus' resurrection power.

You have to make some wild leaps of logic to say that genetic defects are "punishments" from god that can be inherited by the children.

The problem is here that you have talked a lot about several different things without actually addressing the issue. Why is it that the children will inherit the sins of the father but not inherit the sins of the father?

 

[Monk Of Reason]

Mmm .. many concepts appear to be contradictory ..

Take complex numbers, for example .. does the root of -1 exist?

We certainly have a responsibility to our children .. if the parents are careless, they might well follow in their footsteps..

..however, anybody who repents to Almighty God with sincerity will be forgiven..

I will not repent for anything my father did. And no the square root of -1 does not exist. It is imaginary. Does this mean I can assume that god is imaginary because he too seems to be contradictory?

 

[muhammad_isa]

Does this mean I can assume that god is imaginary because he too seems to be contradictory?

A better word would be 'complex'

 

[Monk Of Reason]

A better word would be 'complex'

I don't know that I would agree. But it was mainly a rebuttal to the point that if a number was imaginary that means that contradictory terms are just fine

 

[URAVIP2ME]

You have to make some wild leaps of logic to say that genetic defects are "punishments" from god that can be inherited by the children.
The problem is here that you have talked a lot about several different things without actually addressing the issue. Why is it that the children will inherit the sins of the father but not inherit the sins of the father?

I was not thinking along the lines of inherited genetic defects, but I have seen cases where the mother / father used street drugs and although the child's body looked normal, the child has been under continuous mental care.
I also know a case of fetal alcohol syndrome in a child from the mother's drinking.

If a father was reckless with his life that could bring poverty, etc. down to his children, grandchildren.
Whereas a wise father could bring blessings and benefits down to his children, grandchildren.

 

[Monk Of Reason]

I was not thinking along the lines of inherited genetic defects, but I have seen cases where the mother / father used street drugs and although the child's body looked normal, the child has been under continuous mental care.
I also know a case of fetal alcohol syndrome in a child from the mother's drinking.

If a father was reckless with his life that could bring poverty, etc. down to his children, grandchildren.
Whereas a wise father could bring blessings and benefits down to his children, grandchildren.

And none of that has to do with gods wrath but rather the reality of consequences and the fact they affect people other than yourself. Its possible that the mother was a total crack head and the baby was adopted out and lived their life with a great family. Or its possible that the mother was a crack head an the baby is stillborn. Neither is an indication of inherited guilt.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

I will not repent for anything my father did. And no the square root of -1 does not exist. It is imaginary. Does this mean I can assume that god is imaginary because he too seems to be contradictory?

A person can ' Not ' repent for anything done by his father - See: Ezekiel 18:20; Deut. 24:16; 2nd Chronicles 25:4 B

 

[Monk Of Reason]

A person can ' Not ' repent for anything done by his father - See: Ezekiel 18:20; Deut. 24:16; 2nd Chronicles 25:4 B

They how can god forgive a child for the sins of the father?

 

[URAVIP2ME]

And none of that has to do with gods wrath but rather the reality of consequences and the fact they affect people other than yourself. Its possible that the mother was a total crack head and the baby was adopted out and lived their life with a great family. Or its possible that the mother was a crack head an the baby is stillborn. Neither is an indication of inherited guilt.

There was a 20/20 type show on TV where parents adopted a son who looked normal, but he was Not normal.
They spent all of their money trying to help him, but to No avail.
So, in this case just placing a child in a loving home was Not enough.
The mother even said she thought love alone would be the answer, but sadly was Not.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

They how can god forgive a child for the sins of the father?

The child is innocent of the sins of the father. Just as we are innocent of what father Adam brought upon us.
Each stands on his or her own merits.

A son, or daughter, will bear No guilt because of the error of his or her father........ Ezekiel 18:20

 

[Monk Of Reason]

There was a 20/20 type show on TV where parents adopted a son who looked normal, but he was Not normal.
They spent all of their money trying to help him, but to No avail.
So, in this case just placing a child in a loving home was Not enough.
The mother even said she thought love alone would be the answer, but sadly was Not.

This really doesn't have to do with anything in our conversation so far.

 

[Monk Of Reason]

The child is innocent of the sins of the father. Just as we are innocent of what father Adam brought upon us.
Each stands on his or her own merits.

A son, or daughter, will bear No guilt because of the error of his or her father........ Ezekiel 18:20

Isiah 14:21
Prepare slaughter for his children for the iniquity of their fathers; that they do not rise, nor possess the land, nor fill the face of the world with cities.

Leviticus 26:39
And they that are left of you shall pine away in their iniquity in your enemies' lands; and also in the iniquities of their fathers shall they pine away with them.

Exodus 20:5

You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me,

There are contradictions in the bible. And this is one of the most glaring and undeniable ones.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Isiah 14:21
You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me,[/I]

There are contradictions in the bible. And this is one of the most glaring and undeniable ones.

I don't find it contradictory .. but then I'm not a literalist..

To me, ithe above means that we should not worship any god but the ONE God .. the
Creator of the universe and all it contains. The consequences of turning away from Him
affect our offspring .. the curse is of our own doing .. it's also possible that a child or children in the lineage could repent and be saved on their own merit.

The Bible contains wisdom .. the problem is that both believer and disbeliever 'cherry-pick' verses and interpret them literally (word for word as opposed to idiomatic) when it suits their purpose

 

[Thief]

So the scheme here is that God holds your children as hostage to insure your obedience?

 

[Monk Of Reason]

I don't find it contradictory .. but then I'm not a literalist..

To me, ithe above means that we should not worship any god but the ONE God .. the
Creator of the universe and all it contains. The consequences of turning away from Him
affect our offspring .. the curse is of our own doing .. it's also possible that a child or children in the lineage could repent and be saved on their own merit.

The Bible contains wisdom .. the problem is that both believer and disbeliever 'cherry-pick' verses and interpret them literally (word for word as opposed to idiomatic) when it suits their purpose

And exactly how is it interpreted any other way? And what of the other verses?

That is the inherent problem of the bible. Anyone can cherry pick verses because there are verses to support any viewpoint. Such versatility is a virtue of a tool rather than truth.

 

[muhammad_isa]

So the scheme here is that God holds your children as hostage to insure your obedience?

Don't be ridiculous!

There are consequences that come from the decisions we make in life .. and they affect our children.
Children are born without guilt .. they are innocent until puberty. During this time, their parents are their role model .. they then become parents etc.

Naturally, you are free to understand the meaning of religious values as you wish..

 

[Thief]

Don't be ridiculous!

There are consequences that come from the decisions we make in life .. and they affect our children.
Children are born without guilt .. they are innocent until puberty. During this time, their parents are their role model .. they then become parents etc.

Naturally, you are free to understand the meaning of religious values as you wish..

I'm not religious....for a list of reasons.

But as I was coming up, I did hear various lines drawn about the age of responsibility.
Some hold the line at seven years.
Some say we are born with sin upon us, and cannot enter heaven (unless cleansed).

Ridiculous?....holding the fate of your children in the balance? (weigh scale)

But if Someone Greater than you choses to do so.....what are you going to do about it?