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When Permafrost isn't "Perma"

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
What do you call permafrost when it isn't permanent? That's the reality these days in Alaska as climate change continues chugging underway. The New York Times recently published an article about this with some interesting visuals:

"The Arctic is warming about twice as fast as other parts of the planet, and even here in sub-Arctic Alaska the rate of warming is high. Sea ice and wildlife habitat are disappearing; higher sea levels threaten coastal native villages.

But to the scientists from Woods Hole Research Center who have come here to study the effects of climate change, the most urgent is the fate of permafrost, the always-frozen ground that underlies much of the state.

Starting just a few feet below the surface and extending tens or even hundreds of feet down, it contains vast amounts of carbon in organic matter — plants that took carbon dioxide from the atmosphere centuries ago, died and froze before they could decompose. Worldwide, permafrost is thought to contain about twice as much carbon as is currently in the atmosphere.

Once this ancient organic material thaws, microbes convert some of it to carbon dioxide and methane, which can flow into the atmosphere and cause even more warming. Scientists have estimated that the process of permafrost thawing could contribute as much as 1.7 degrees Fahrenheit to global warming over the next several centuries, independent of what society does to reduce emissions from burning fossil fuels and other activities."
Full Article Available at: Alaska’s Permafrost Is Thawing

While thawing the full depth of permafrost in Alaska would take millennia, there's a distinct possibility that more than enough will thaw to dramatically change the ecology in these regions, and also further contribute to rising global temperatures. Scientists are studying the permafrost up there to be able to create more accurate models of different climate scenarios, and if you'd like to read up more, check out the full article above. Feel free to commend/discuss.
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
I thought it was called tundra.
Permafrost - Wikipedia

Methane is a much stronger agent than CO2. I'm sure this will disappear as the current science-denying regime substitutes superstition for science but:

CO2, by definition, has a GWP of 1 regardless of the time period used, because it is the gas being used as the reference. CO2 remains in the climate system for a very long time: CO2 emissions cause increases in atmospheric concentrations of CO2 that will last thousands of years.

Methane (CH4) is estimated to have a GWP of 28–36 over 100 years (Learn why EPA's U.S. Inventory of Greenhouse Gas Emissions and Sinks uses a different value.). CH4 emitted today lasts about a decade on average, which is much less time than CO2. But CH4 also absorbs much more energy than CO2. The net effect of the shorter lifetime and higher energy absorption is reflected in the GWP. The CH4 GWP also accounts for some indirect effects, such as the fact that CH4 is a precursor to ozone, and ozone is itself a GHG.

Understanding Global Warming Potentials | US EPA
 

DavidFirth

Well-Known Member
Permafrost - Wikipedia

Methane is a much stronger agent than CO2. I'm sure this will disappear as the current science-denying regime substitutes superstition for science but:

CO2, by definition, has a GWP of 1 regardless of the time period used, because it is the gas being used as the reference. CO2 remains in the climate system for a very long time: CO2 emissions cause increases in atmospheric concentrations of CO2 that will last thousands of years.

Methane (CH4) is estimated to have a GWP of 28–36 over 100 years (Learn why EPA's U.S. Inventory of Greenhouse Gas Emissions and Sinks uses a different value.). CH4 emitted today lasts about a decade on average, which is much less time than CO2. But CH4 also absorbs much more energy than CO2. The net effect of the shorter lifetime and higher energy absorption is reflected in the GWP. The CH4 GWP also accounts for some indirect effects, such as the fact that CH4 is a precursor to ozone, and ozone is itself a GHG.

Understanding Global Warming Potentials | US EPA

No, I meant that I thought permafrost that isn't permanent is called tundra.
 

Guy Threepwood

Mighty Pirate
Permafrost - Wikipedia

Methane is a much stronger agent than CO2. I'm sure this will disappear as the current science-denying regime substitutes superstition for science but:

CO2, by definition, has a GWP of 1 regardless of the time period used, because it is the gas being used as the reference. CO2 remains in the climate system for a very long time: CO2 emissions cause increases in atmospheric concentrations of CO2 that will last thousands of years.

Methane (CH4) is estimated to have a GWP of 28–36 over 100 years (Learn why EPA's U.S. Inventory of Greenhouse Gas Emissions and Sinks uses a different value.). CH4 emitted today lasts about a decade on average, which is much less time than CO2. But CH4 also absorbs much more energy than CO2. The net effect of the shorter lifetime and higher energy absorption is reflected in the GWP. The CH4 GWP also accounts for some indirect effects, such as the fact that CH4 is a precursor to ozone, and ozone is itself a GHG.

Understanding Global Warming Potentials | US EPA

Well a couple extra molecules CO2 in 10000 of air is certainly not going to do much of anything, other than makes plants grow slightly faster and more drought resistant-

so yes, the theory relies entirely on simulated feedback loops involving gases other than CO2, primarily water vapor, which is what actually drives Earth's GH effect.


On superstition; bad weather being caused by people, is probably quite literally the oldest superstition known to mankind. It will always be with us, and there will always be those accepting sacrifices to appease nature, this is nothing new.
 

BSM1

What? Me worry?
More hysterical CC BS. First, how could the Arctic be "...warming about twice as fast as other parts of the planet...". If this is true, how much has the Arctic warmed? Even if this story contained a modicum of fact, what could we do about it now?

When this story broke a couple of months ago, the scientists studying this phenomena stated that this had nothing to do with neither GW or CC. However, I see the story has been co-opted by those who would have you believe that your SUV should be taken out to the back pasture and shot.
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
More hysterical CC BS. First, how could the Arctic be "...warming about twice as fast as other parts of the planet...". If this is true, how much has the Arctic warmed? Even if this story contained a modicum of fact, what could we do about it now?

When this story broke a couple of months ago, the scientists studying this phenomena stated that this had nothing to do with neither GW or CC. However, I see the story has been co-opted by those who would have you believe that your SUV should be taken out to the back pasture and shot.
Study the evidence don't dismiss it out of hand.

Since the story is indeed true, the question of what we do now is a good one. Of course with the science-denying regime in Washington substituting superstition for science it's much more difficult for the US to do as good a job as the rest of the developed world is doing. But on an individual basis we can take action which saves money as it reduces greenhouse gases. If there are people who want to spend money they don't have to, I have yet to meet them:

8. Pull the plug(s).


Taken together, the outlets in your home are likely powering about 65 different devices – an average load for a home in the U.S. Audio and video devices, cordless vacuums and power tools, and other electronics use energy even when they're not charging. This "idle load" across all U.S. households adds up to the output of 50 large power plants in the U.S. So don't leave fully charged devices plugged into your home's outlets, unplug rarely used devices or plug them into power strips and timers, and adjust your computers and monitors to automatically power down to the lowest power mode when not in use.

10. Maintain your ride.


If all Americans kept their tires properly inflated, we could say 1.2 billion gallons of gas each year. A simple tune-up can boost miles per gallon anywhere from 4 percent to 40 percent, and a new air filter can get you a 10 percent boost.


How You Can Stop Global Warming
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
Quintessence said:
What do you call permafrost when it isn't permanent? That's the reality these days in Alaska as climate change continues chugging underway.
The "perma" in permafrost does not mean permanently (in a way that lasts or remains unchanged indefinitely; for all time).

perma-
prefix
1.(informal) indicating a fixed state: a perma-tan, perma-grin​


"In geology, permafrost is ground, including rock or (cryotic) soil, at or below the freezing point of water 0 °C (32 °F) for two or more years."

Source: Wikipedia.
 
Last edited:

DavidFirth

Well-Known Member
Arctic tundra contains areas of stark landscape and is frozen for much of the year. The soil there is frozen from 25 to 90 cm (10 to 35 in) down, and it is impossible for trees to grow.

Tundra - Wikipedia
 

Father Heathen

Veteran Member
Well a couple extra molecules CO2 in 10000 of air is certainly not going to do much of anything, other than makes plants grow slightly faster and more drought resistant-

so yes, the theory relies entirely on simulated feedback loops involving gases other than CO2, primarily water vapor, which is what actually drives Earth's GH effect.


On superstition; bad weather being caused by people, is probably quite literally the oldest superstition known to mankind. It will always be with us, and there will always be those accepting sacrifices to appease nature, this is nothing new.

Well, it will eventually be out of our hands regardless. Gotta be optimistic either way, as a "Mad Max" world just might be as fun as it appears in the movies.
 

The Holy Bottom Burp

Active Member
Well, it will eventually be out of our hands regardless. Gotta be optimistic either way, as a "Mad Max" world just might be as fun as it appears in the movies.
I feel the need to bring a "Pascal's Wager" type proposition to the climate change deniers (aka theists). If the scientists with all the qualifications, all the learning, all the data say there is a sh*t storm coming our way, shouldn't we err on the side of caution and listen to them? If they are right we will soon be f*cked with no way out. If they are wrong and we all make every effort to reduce the amount of pollution we chuck up into the atmosphere what have we lost? A gallon of gas costs you more? Worth betting your child's or grandchild's future on?

Theists don't have a great track record when it comes to understanding this reality we share. Physics, chemistry and biology didn't come from a holy book, I know where I'd be putting my money. ;)
 

Brickjectivity

Brickish Brat
Staff member
Premium Member
While thawing the full depth of permafrost in Alaska would take millennia, there's a distinct possibility that more than enough will thaw to dramatically change the ecology in these regions, and also further contribute to rising global temperatures. Scientists are studying the permafrost up there to be able to create more accurate models of different climate scenarios, and if you'd like to read up more, check out the full article above. Feel free to commend/discuss.
I'm no Brainiac but you said to 'Feel free'.

What if releasing excess CO2 increases the total amount of gas in the atmosphere and results in higher levels of O2 and Ozone over the next, say, 50 years? Might this then cause insects and ocean creatures to grow larger? Might the increased Ozone cool the Earth and turn it into a colder place?
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
I'm no Brainiac but you said to 'Feel free'.

What if releasing excess CO2 increases the total amount of gas in the atmosphere and results in higher levels of O2 and Ozone over the next, say, 50 years? Might this then cause insects and ocean creatures to grow larger? Might the increased Ozone cool the Earth and turn it into a colder place?
Yes!

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.
 

Ingledsva

HEATHEN ALASKAN
What do you call permafrost when it isn't permanent? That's the reality these days in Alaska as climate change continues chugging underway. The New York Times recently published an article about this with some interesting visuals:

"The Arctic is warming about twice as fast as other parts of the planet, and even here in sub-Arctic Alaska the rate of warming is high. Sea ice and wildlife habitat are disappearing; higher sea levels threaten coastal native villages.

But to the scientists from Woods Hole Research Center who have come here to study the effects of climate change, the most urgent is the fate of permafrost, the always-frozen ground that underlies much of the state.

Starting just a few feet below the surface and extending tens or even hundreds of feet down, it contains vast amounts of carbon in organic matter — plants that took carbon dioxide from the atmosphere centuries ago, died and froze before they could decompose. Worldwide, permafrost is thought to contain about twice as much carbon as is currently in the atmosphere.

Once this ancient organic material thaws, microbes convert some of it to carbon dioxide and methane, which can flow into the atmosphere and cause even more warming. Scientists have estimated that the process of permafrost thawing could contribute as much as 1.7 degrees Fahrenheit to global warming over the next several centuries, independent of what society does to reduce emissions from burning fossil fuels and other activities."
Full Article Available at: Alaska’s Permafrost Is Thawing

While thawing the full depth of permafrost in Alaska would take millennia, there's a distinct possibility that more than enough will thaw to dramatically change the ecology in these regions, and also further contribute to rising global temperatures. Scientists are studying the permafrost up there to be able to create more accurate models of different climate scenarios, and if you'd like to read up more, check out the full article above. Feel free to commend/discuss.

Yep it is a FACT up here.

I've made a couple of posts on this. The change here is happening very fast.

When I was a child we had tons of snow. We used to tunnel in and make igloos to play in. We used to ice-skate, and play on snowmobiles, etc.

I live in the same town I grew up in. We now rarely get even a dusting of snow, that is gone by morning. We can't ice skate - no ice. No snowmobiling unless we go up into the mountains.

Entire villages are sinking because of the Permafrost loss. These people lose everything, including their culture, as they are moved.

I heard a scientist say if you want to see global warming in action - go out to the fringes. Alaska shows it very well. As do desert climates where ancient sites are being lost, crumbling, because of more rain.

Global warming means climate change, and people everywhere are eventually going to be in trouble. Look up how fast Florida's coast is disappearing. People along coasts are going to be in trouble.

The guys being funny, - told me not to worry, (our house is ocean/beach side but higher up on the slope.) They said, "perfect, - eventually we will be able to tie the boat to the deck rails." o_O :D

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Brickjectivity

Brickish Brat
Staff member
Premium Member
Yep it is a FACT up here.

I've made a couple of posts on this. The change here is happening very fast.

When I was a child we had tons of snow. We used to tunnel in and make igloos to play in. We used to ice-skate, and play on snowmobiles, etc.

I live in the same town I grew up in. We now rarely get even a dusting of snow, that is gone by morning. We can't ice skate - no ice. No snowmobiling unless we go up into the mountains.

Entire villages are sinking because of the Permafrost loss. These people lose everything, including their culture, as they are moved.

I heard a scientist say if you want to see global warming in action - go out to the fringes. Alaska shows it very well. As do desert climates where ancient sites are being lost, crumbling, because of more rain.

Global warming means climate change, and people everywhere are eventually going to be in trouble. Look up how fast Florida's coast is disappearing. People along coasts are going to be in trouble.

The guys being funny, - told me not to worry, (our house is ocean/beach side but higher up on the slope.) They said, "perfect, - eventually we will be able to tie the boat to the deck rails." o_O :D

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So is this is a good time to buy land in Alaska? If its getting warmer, than maybe there is some profit to be made?
 

Ingledsva

HEATHEN ALASKAN
So is this is a good time to buy land in Alaska? If its getting warmer, than maybe there is some profit to be made?

I don't think you would like all the rain. It has been raining pretty-much steady for the last month.

It actually ruined our cherry crop. They split before they got ripe.

Yep, we have cherry and apple trees. Our neighbor has plum trees. It really is getting warmer up here. :)

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