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when I accept evolution do i give up my faith?

Discussion in 'Evolution Vs. Creationism' started by tarasan, Feb 23, 2010.

  1. tarasan

    tarasan Well-Known Member

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    If your not willing to explain yourself then why even make the statement? If your not here to debate in a way that others can understand you then your merely trying to make yourself sound smart in your own eyes. Which is a little sad
     
  2. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    That was a rather silly bit of vapid pedantry ... :slap:

     
  3. ShakeZula

    ShakeZula The Master Shake

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    No Christian takes the bible 100% literally. To do such a thing in this day and age would land you solidly in jail or the nuthouse.

    But the more and more they give away to metaphor, symbolism or parable, the less and less it actually becomes a true religion. In the end you end up with nothing more than a book of fairy tales or some incredibly violent philosophy. As I said, it's either true or it isn't. There is no half way on this. If you want to say that some of it's true but not the rest, you have to start defending that position by outlining how you know which is what. Is god speaking to you and telling you which parts he meant and which parts he didn't? Or are you guessing?

    Don't get me wrong, I appreciate liberalized faith. It makes life much more tolerable for a free-thinking atheist like myself. I'm not stoned in the town square, for instance.

    If someone says "Well, god meant what he said about the gays, that they're bad, but that part about killing them... well, that's just a bit much. God was just kidding about that bit. He didn't mean for us to actually kill them," then that person is being intellectually dishonest. And willfully so. They're admitting to themselves that they find the idea of executing someone for sexual preference abhorrent, that *gasp* god was wrong, but they can't come out and say that. So they make a compromise, as if god is amenable to such things. "We'll just persecute and discriminate against gays, but we won't actually kill them. That will keep god's wrath at bay!"

    The more and more you do that, the more the bible and your faith is undercut and yes, you have to start jumping through mental hoops. You have to start ignoring your common sense and better judgement to maintain a 'faithful' lifestyle. You have to deliberately choose faith over reason and try not to think about it because the more you do, the more it makes you nervous, scared and downright uncomfortable.

    (It should be noted that I'm using 'you' in the metaphorical sense. I have no clue of your religious beliefs or affiliations.)

    -S-
     
    #23 ShakeZula, Feb 24, 2010
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2010
  4. ShakeZula

    ShakeZula The Master Shake

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    If it's not about science and has nothing to say on the issue why have religious institutions for centuries been trying to stifle scientific progress and hinder education when it comes in to conflict with scripture?

    And more to the point, wouldn't god have known all the trouble our own ignorance has caused us over the millennium? Just think of the lives that would have been saved if god had told people about bacteria and that they should wash their hands more often. Saying "well, the people then didn't care about that kind of stuff" is ludicrous. If that's true then god condemned millions upon millions of people to live in crushing ignorance and squalor when a few verses in his book would have alleviated all of that.

    Is this the kind of deity you want to worship, that so casually ignores the suffering of so many? We're not even talking about miracles here, we're talking about simple hygiene or biological functions. How about letting the people know that menstruating women weren't filthy and cursed? That would have been a huge help to women.

    Sweet Jebus... This is actually one of the worst things I've ever heard. :facepalm:

    -S-
     
  5. tarasan

    tarasan Well-Known Member

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    Im sorry I have to disagree, If what you say is true then there never has been a Christian religion, from the time of the rabinnic Jew the bible has been debated on seeing what should and should not be interpreted literally. ever heard of Hillel and Shamelle?

    I can easily say that some of it isnt true while others are, for example the enitre book of ecclesiates is meant to be a person struggling with life, no one has taken it seriously.

    You also dont seem to be taking the New testament, heck even some of the Old testament into account, when we as a religion discount or change something we do it when the biblical narrative holds the evidence and when the translation can mean other things, as well as social and cultural evidence that we have of that time. You are grossly over simplifying the proccess as well as our train of thought. we dont just say "ohhh God told me this".

    I just feel your ignoring history, theology and the like when you make such a statement.
     
  6. RedOne77

    RedOne77 Active Member

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    Well I would hope not. There are clear non-literal passages in the Bible, and we can tell which parts are meant to be literal and which aren't based on scholarship in understanding the writing style within the cultural context of the scripture.

    That is just not true. Religion is no where near static, it almost never is. What do you mean by a "true religion"? Religion doesn't even have an accepted definition.

    I have always been intrigued by the domino approach to Christianity. It is used by both creationists and atheists, in almost the same manner, only highlighting different things to get TEs to become literalists. Obviously creationists try to do this in a way to make them creationists, while atheists do it make them forgo faith all together. It is an interesting tactic IMHO, but ultimately flawed. It is like saying because the ToE can't explain X it is completely wrong and we must throw it out. Or perhaps a better example is Newton. The theory of gravity can't account for all phenomena we see, but that doesn't mean we should throw it out completely, rather it indicates that we don't know everything, and we must revise our understanding. Which of course happened when Einstein came up with relativity, and is happening again in the QM field.

    [quote[Don't get me wrong, I appreciate liberalized faith. It makes life much more tolerable for a free-thinking atheist like myself. I'm not stoned in the town square, for instance.[/quote]

    You don't need "liberalized faith" to enjoy freedom, just the right understanding of the faith.

    Or you can choose to not worship an idol (the Bible) over God. Too often people put God in a little tiny box, conditioned through the cultural environment, and when their faith is challenged (or in your case when you look at faith) God is too small and faith is eroded and non-faith is augmented.
     
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  7. tarasan

    tarasan Well-Known Member

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    Again more ignorance, God mightnt have told them about bacteria, but he did teach them about cleanliness didnt he? think of how filthy people where and blood was? I mean come on man common sense states that you should keep away especially in the dirty condictions that they live in, also everyone in the bible was unclean in one case it didnt mean you sinned, it just had the very negative conatation in the New Testament with the fundamentlaism with the pharisees. Somehow I believe making sure your people kept away from death, blood and such was very good ways of keeping them Clean and free of disease. I mean your whole talk Im sure is about leviticous? cause these very same clean laws where in that same book.
     
  8. Sunstone

    Sunstone De Diablo Del Fora
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    Your analysis seems to me to be an especially pathetic attempt to escape your responsibility to make at least a minimal effort to understand what others say.

    Out of politeness, I've edited out of this post my remarks regarding what I think of that.
     
    #28 Sunstone, Feb 24, 2010
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2010
  9. tarasan

    tarasan Well-Known Member

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    look belittle me if you want, but what you say makes no sense, It doesnt seem that you are refering to any Religion, it just seems to be a random quote, so for the sake of my inferior mind just tell me what you mean in laymans terms.
     
  10. Willamena

    Willamena Just me
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    Wouldn't "evolution" be one of those rules?
     
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  11. Sunstone

    Sunstone De Diablo Del Fora
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    Haven't you ever heard a creationist state things to the effect that acceptance of evolution undermines all religion, morality, decency, humanity, etc?
     
  12. Willamena

    Willamena Just me
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    I agree: he seems to have missed that you're kidding.
     
  13. tarasan

    tarasan Well-Known Member

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    you see now I understand!! Yes i do and thank you for the clarification I couldnt see that at all!! I agree Creationists are very much like that, I personnaly feel they dont like progression...
     
  14. Man of Faith

    Man of Faith Well-Known Member

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    When you say that you believe the Creation story to be a narrative, that is true, it is written as a narrative, a true narrative. Is there any reason to believe that it is a false narrative? It is backed up by other areas of the Bible.

    1) In Exodus 20 God tells us to work 6 days and rest on the 7th just like he did when he created the universe. If a day isn't a day then are we supposed to work millions of years the rest millions of years?
    2) In all other parts of the Bible where a day is qualified by morning and evening, it means a normal day. Nobody questions those accounts, only the creation story day because of the ToE.
    3) In Matthew 19, Jesus confirmed the creation account saying that God created male and female humans in the beginning.
    4) The ToE says that death came before man, the creation story says that man came before death.
    5) The creation story says that thorns are a result of mans sin in the garden, man dates thorn fossils millions of years before man.

    When Darwin came up with the ToE, it was said that he "killed God". That is what evolution is all about, an explanation of how we came to be without God. Don't believe it, it is a false narrative that came from a good imagination. Atheists and God denyers want believers to spread their gospel for them. You can see from the global warming scandal that scientists perpetuate fraud and myths for their own financial well being.
     
  15. tarasan

    tarasan Well-Known Member

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    I am not a literalist, i believe that the bible was written by many different authors all with different things to say, that isnt to say that im not open taking the creation story literally, but id need some tough convincing, so before you use these points to convince me maybe you should say why I should take all the bible literally? assuming of course that the people of the bible would agree with complete stroy of chapter one and two of Genesis because they had nothing else to go on.
     
  16. Super Saiya Jinn

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    A true narrative, says who?...no independent evidence as ever been found to support the bible's account of Creation.
    I agree, it was 6 days, there is no getting round it, that is what the bible says. If it meant x amount of time, it would have said so.
    Once again i agree, only someone who is trying to bend the rules a bit would disagree, to encorporate both ToE and the biblical creation story, they are clearly incompatible.
    3) In Matthew 19, Jesus confirmed the creation account saying that God created male and female humans in the beginning.
    No....It says life came before death, because death cannot happen without life. Loads of organisms died before our species came to be, is that what you mean?
    You make it sound like he set out to kill God, which is not the case. Darwin found it extremely hard in contemplating what the evidence meant to the beliefs he himself declared.

    You are comparing the Theory of Evolution, to Global Warming? Why?

    Evolution has mountains of evidence which the latter does not, so why are you comparing the two?
    There has been recorded speciation within our lifetime, which again supports the Theory. It's as easy as going to google and typing "recorded speciation".
    Dr Frances Collins, the guy who cracked the human genome, who is also an evangelist Christian says that the DNA evidence alone proves that Evolution is reality. Read his book 'The language of God' an interesting read for the faithful and sceptic alike. So please don't compare a Scientific fact to a highly debated scientific topic like Global warming, which has been getting conflicting data.
     
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  17. Storm

    Storm ThrUU the Looking Glass

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  18. Man of Faith

    Man of Faith Well-Known Member

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    I believe in taking a plain reading of the Bible and what does it say? Like you said the Bible was written by many different authors saying many different things. Does that mean we have to take every word literally? No. If something isn't to be taken literally then it is obvious. When Isaiah says that the trees will clap their hands should we take it literally that trees have hands? That is obviously no. The Bible has literal, symbolic, and poetic writings in it, it's not one or the other, it is all.

    The creation story is not peotry or symbolism, it is written in narrative form. When it says that God created the heavens and the earth, what could that symbolise? I know of nothing. There is nothing in the creation story that could symbolise evolution. It all says with a plain reading that God created all the animals. We also see that in scientific evidence with the cambrian explosion where whole animals came into existence at one period of time. We see that the fossil evidence doesn't support all this slow changes over millions of years.
     
  19. The_Evelyonian

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    Yes, the Cambrian explosion took place over a short 70-80 million years. Ample time for evolution by natural selection to do the job.

    This is just a bold-faced lie.

    Anyone with even a rudimentary understanding of the fossil record can see the evidence for evolution.
     
    #39 The_Evelyonian, Feb 24, 2010
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2010
  20. tarasan

    tarasan Well-Known Member

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    This is a very interesting article Storm and I thank you for showing it too me, although im sure im going to have to read it more than once to truly grasp it, I definately got hte gist of what it was saying.
     
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