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when I accept evolution do i give up my faith?

Discussion in 'Evolution Vs. Creationism' started by tarasan, Feb 23, 2010.

  1. Storm

    Storm ThrUU the Looking Glass

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    You should probably read the article, as well.

    Particularly relevant:
    One of the ironies of biblical literalism is that it shares so largely in the reductionist and literalist spirit of the age. It is not nearly as conservative as it supposes. It is modernistic, and it sells its symbolic birthright for a mess of tangible pottage. Biblical materials and affirmations--in this case the symbolism of Creator and creation--are treated as though of the same order and the same literary genre as scientific and historical writing. "I believe in God the Father Almighty" becomes a chronological issue, and "Maker of heaven and earth" a technological problem.
    A "plain reading of the Bible" does great disservice to both text and reader. Genesis is a masterfully crafted myth, rich with beauty and profound meaning. The fact that the symbolism is more complex than a represents b does not negate the fact that it is symbolism.
     
  2. Storm

    Storm ThrUU the Looking Glass

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    You are most welcome. :)
     
  3. tarasan

    tarasan Well-Known Member

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    It s true its not symbology, but why cant it merely be saying that God created and controls all things, why does it have to be a physical literal account? Would it destroy faith if it was merely used to convey God as creator and soverign? I really wanna hear your account on it as you seem very passionate about your belief! :yes:
     
  4. ShakeZula

    ShakeZula The Master Shake

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    If by Christian religion you mean a time when all the rules and laws set forth by god in the bibles were followed as it was written, no. That has never happened and indeed couldn't happen because the bible contradicts itself repeatedly. (Another nail in the coffin of divine infallibility.)

    I'm speaking about gods laws and commandments.

    If I ignore the NT when regards to keeping the laws it's due to the fact that Jesus had one thing to say about it and Paul had another. This is yet another problem with obeying scripture. Who's more right, Jesus or Paul?

    But you're wrong on one thing. People say "ohhh God told me this" all the time. Have you never watched Pat Robertson?

    -S-
     
  5. fantome profane

    fantome profane Have you read the Whistleblower complaint?
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    What do you mean by “true”? There are many truths that can be found in Aesop’s fables, regardless of the fact that rabbits and turtles don’t speak or have inter-species foot races. Is it not also possible that many truths can be found in the bible without requiring a literal interpretation?

    I observe people who deny evolution performing much more extreme feats of mental gymnastics.
     
  6. ShakeZula

    ShakeZula The Master Shake

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    I'm referring to laws and commandments.

    You're right, true religion was the wrong choice of words. What would be more appropriate would be saying something along the lines of a philosophy or way of living ones like, like Taoism. There's no worship involved but there are rules for living one's life. This is what I was referring to.



    Comparing the bible to to scientific endeavors is doomed to fail. You can test evolution, gravity and quantum mechanics. There are logical reasons to apply it to various scenarios. Religion and faith can not be tested and indeed are irrational and illogical at their very core. If you had a logical reason to believe in god or scripture then you wouldn't need faith.

    No, what you need is apologetics. Explain non-liberal theology to all the dead freethinkers and heretics that are scattered throughout history.

    Yay! I love apologetics, don't you? The only way you have of knowing god that can't be said to be imaginings in your brain is through the bible. If you had never been taught about the bible, had never even heard of it, is there another way for you to have come to Christianity? You can't learn about god's purpose for you or his message to mankind except through the bible. Are you suggesting that the bible is not really necessary to being a Christian?

    -S-
     
  7. Man of Faith

    Man of Faith Well-Known Member

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    Why was there a need for the explanation of punctuated equilibrium if the fossil record supports Darwinism which is slow changes of long periods of time?
     
  8. Man of Faith

    Man of Faith Well-Known Member

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    Here is the issue as I see it. I get my religious beliefs from the Bible. I get belief that Jesus died for my sins and rose from the dead from the Bible. If I can't believe that literally then my beliefs are in vain. If I can't take a plain reading of the Bible then I have no idea what it means or says. If I let atheists dictate what the Bible means then in one area, creation then what about other areas?
     
  9. ShakeZula

    ShakeZula The Master Shake

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    True. As in testable, verifiable, observable. We can get deeply esoteric and start questioning the very nature of reality if you like. We can discuss how all of our knowledge is based on assumptions, we can't even define reality, etc. etc., but that will quickly kill the conversation. You can't escape from that sinkhole. We have to start with the assumption that we are here, that certain things can be known, that certain things are true and certain things are false based on the acceptance of those initial assumptions.

    Following that logic: The bible is either the direct word of god, his laws, commandments and divine musings that he intended all of humanity to follow and obey or, it isn't. The answer to this binary.

    Now, we can go in to a sub-category and say that the Bible is divinely inspired, in that god guided the men who wrote in their words but that some of it could have been or was lost in translation, but that this is still the stories and things god wants us to know, or it isn't. Either way, it's a binary answer as well.

    If you want a third option, the option to say neither then there's no need to believe in Christ at all. And as I stated earlier, if you want to start cherry picking which are the parts you should listen to and which you can let slide then you have to give a defendable answer as to why your ideas are any more important than the other guys on this issue. The last time I checked, there are no parts in the bible that say this commandment or that law can be ignored as needed. To be fair, I haven't read it cover to cover, but I am actively working to rectify that shortcoming. (I've got a NIV on my shelf and a bible app on my iPod) If it does say that somewhere, kindly point me to the chapter and verse.

    -S-
     
  10. ShakeZula

    ShakeZula The Master Shake

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    :yes:

    See what I mean. Faith over fact.

    -S-
     
  11. Man of Faith

    Man of Faith Well-Known Member

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    Here is the issue as I see it. I get my religious beliefs from the Bible. I get the belief that Jesus died for my sins and rose from the dead from the Bible. If I can't take the Bible as it reads then my beliefs are in vain. If I can't take a plain reading of the Bible then I have no idea what it means or says. If I let God denyers dictate what the Bible means in one area like creation, then what about other areas?
     
  12. tarasan

    tarasan Well-Known Member

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  13. 9-10ths_Penguin

    9-10ths_Penguin 1/10 Riboflavin
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    Wait... so the only reason you have for believing in your religion is because you read it in a book?

    The Bible talks about believers being "led by the Spirit"; don't you have that? If you do, then hopefully you can discern whether a given part of the Bible (e.g. the Resurrection) is literally true independent of whether some other part (e.g. a 6-day Creation) isn't. And if you aren't "led by the Spirit", then what does this tell you about the truth of the Bible?
     
  14. ShakeZula

    ShakeZula The Master Shake

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    Are you asking for examples of Biblical contradictions because you think there are none or as a delaying tactic?

    Now you've done did it. How do you know that God is not communicating directly to Pat Robertson? Define 'good theologians'.

    -S-
     
  15. fantome profane

    fantome profane Have you read the Whistleblower complaint?
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    Is it true that greater effort can sometimes win over greater ability? Is it true that overconfidence can sometime lead to defeat? Even if you don’t agree that these things are true, the point I am trying to make is that it would be ridiculous to conclude that these things are false because rabbits don’t speak.

    Does “God” exist? Did “God” create the universe? Does “God” have a special relationship with humanity? My answer to these questions is no. But I would be an idiot to say that the reason that the answer is no is because snakes don’t speak.

    Human being have always used stories to convey ideas that they believed were true. And those who created the stories we read in Genesis used these stories to convey their ideas about God, the universe and humanity. And even if these stories are no more true than stories of talking rabbits and turtles that does not mean that the ideas conveyed by these stories are not true. I am making a distinction here between the story and the idea that story is meant to convey. It is an important distinction and one that many people miss. And more to the point there is no logical contradiction between these ideas and the theory of evolution.
     
  16. tarasan

    tarasan Well-Known Member

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    a delay for what? i want you to tell me what teh contradiction you find are? how can i answer the question if i dont know what u are talking about?



    well we are to test people by their fruits... and his.....not so much...
    although I guess your planning on using this extreme example to prove a point? ill go ahead and let you make it




    -S-[/quote]
     
  17. Autodidact

    Autodidact Intentionally Blank

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    It depends. If your faith is that God created the world, even that God gave his only begotten son to die on the cross that we may be saved, no problem. If, on the other hand, your faith is a belief that God magically poofed two of each species into existence 6000 years ago, that there was a global flood 4000 years ago, that a single human family saved two of each species by taking them on a big wooden boat, and no new species have come into existence since then, then yes, you would have to give up that sort of faith. However, since evolution is correct, you would want to, if you have any interest in being right.
     
  18. tarasan

    tarasan Well-Known Member

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    you see now why cant I cant I say that!

    my hats off to you man
     
  19. Autodidact

    Autodidact Intentionally Blank

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    Well you've got a big problem then, MoF. The people you are calling "God denyers," are what the rest of us call scientists. To maintain your sort of faith, you have to deny science. That's a shaky sort of faith. That's why YEC leads to atheism. It does explain why you don't want to learn what the actual ToE says, though. You're afraid it will lead you to lose your faith, which would (in your world-view) cast you into eternal torment. Avoiding being burned in eternal Hell is a motivator strong enough to enable you to deny the existence of evidence you've never examined.
     
  20. ShakeZula

    ShakeZula The Master Shake

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    I apologize. Perhaps I have just been hanging out with people like me too much. I thought biblical contradictions were well known. I will gladly provide you with a list longer than your arm... tomorrow. It's 2am here and I must go to bed.





    If we are to test them by their fruits then even Jesus doesn't make the grade. After all, he rather infamously proclaimed that none of his disciples would die before seeing the end of the world. Still waiting...

    -S-
     
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