When do we blame God?

[Magic Man]

This goes for Storm too. hehehe.

I don't believe God created our imperfect bodies. My mother formed my imperfect body. I believe God created Adam and Eve with perfect bodies. But because Satan tempted Adam and Eve to eat of the fruit, their bodies became imperfect. So it is through mankind's own actions that our bodies are imperfect.


You've kept me busy with this thread. I haven't had a chance to check any others. It's fun.

OK, since for once, Storm didn't say what I had in mind...

At some point, you still have to blame God. Again, why did we choose to be imperfect? Because God gave us that ability, and gave us the option of Satan. He gave us all the tools to be imperfect, and the desire to be imperfect. I'd say that's enough to convict Him.

 

[cardero]

Sola’lar writes: God chooses to be moral then that is what is moral.

What need or necessity would require morality from GOD in His existence? Is there wrong doing in heaven? Are there questionable ethical practices in the spriritual realm for GOD to act or behave moral? What would be the need or necessity for GOD to have humans act and behave moral? What‘s in it for GOD?

Sola’lar writes: But it is more of a guide to help us reach the levelof God's morality.

If there is no reason to practice or act moral in heaven, what would be the purpose for GOD to create an earth an inhabit it with humans? Wouldn’t it be more efficient to learn, guide, understand and mimic GOD’s “morality” and for us to exist as spiritual entities (instead of physical entities) and dwell where He is?

 

[tomspug]

Good and Evil are meaningless words. A benevolent being would not be able to watch its creation suffer as greatly as humanity has. To claim God "loves us" and then to claim we cannot understand his plan is to undermine our capacity to reason. I've been to several developing countries and I don't find the disparity in living conditions between myself and them to be reasonable. I also don't find it reasonable that as God creates us equally we all live with such inequity.

You'll find that people in developing countries tend to be happier than us, in general, which is interesting.

I think sometimes we use 'reason' too much. We over-think things. If Good and Evil are so meaningless, then why do they resonate with truth for most people?

 

[Sola'lor]

OK, so who created Satan?

EDIT: Also, who Created the fruit and put it in the Garden? If GOd is omnimax, (and I honestly don't know if He is in your views) then He is ultimately responsible.

In my belief the Spirit that was called Lucifer became Satan when he was cast out of heaven. God didn't create Lucifer. God didn't create Christ. I believe we all existed eternally in some form or another. God formed our spiritual bodies.

I believe God is omnimax, maybe not by the common defiition of some people though. But Saying God is responsible for the bad choices of people is like saying if I kill someone my parents should be punished. After all it's their responsibility that I was born.

God is not the author of everyone's choices. If He was then we would be little more than puppets and anon of our choicees would have any relevence to who we are. We are responsible for our own choices. We make the choices. Just because God puts a tree in a forest and a guy eat the fruit of it doesn't mean God is responisble for that choice. That guy is responsible for that choice. He was the one who took the action. God didn't take the action. It just doesn't make sense that because God set up the world, He should be responsible for the choices His children make. I believe He will give justice for everything that has happened on this Earth. We are all free agents with the ability to choose for ourselves. God doesn't make my choices, I do. Does He have an influence in my choices? Yes. but ultimatly when it all comes down to it I am the one who makes the choice. I am the one who is responsible. I am the one who will be punished for my wrong choices. I will be punished for choicesw where i didn't follow God.

 

[A Lurking Shadow]

You'll find that people in developing countries tend to be happier than us, in general, which is interesting.

I think sometimes we use 'reason' too much. We over-think things. If Good and Evil are so meaningless, then why do they resonate with truth for most people?

Curious as to how you measure "happiness", though I seriously doubt the people of Sierra Leone enjoyed being massacred on a daily basis, and being enslaved for corrupt freedom fighters.

The top end Human Development index is populated by wealthy, slightly socialist nations. Norway, Canada, Australia, Sweden, etc. Whilst this isn't inherently a measure of "happiness", it is a measure of quality of life, which is far more tangible.

You will find Good and Evil as concepts are bored into our brains in childhood. Spartans (raised purely as soliders) engaged in combat with unrelenting brutality. They also had giant, homosexual style orgies between battles. That was their morality, and its certainly not ours.

 

[Sola'lor]

OK, since for once, Storm didn't say what I had in mind...

At some point, you still have to blame God. Again, why did we choose to be imperfect? Because God gave us that ability, and gave us the option of Satan. He gave us all the tools to be imperfect, and the desire to be imperfect. I'd say that's enough to convict Him.

Yes God gave us the ability and setup everything. But He's not the one who made choice. Adam made the choice. Eve mad ethe choice. I made the choice. I'm resposible for choosing between the options given to me. Is God responsible for the options we are given? Yes. But I am responsible for using my ability to choose in the right or wrong way. It's all down to that decision I made in my brain. What God setup is irresp[ective of me. The only differing factor in me choosing good or evil is me. With out me, my choices are irrelevent. It sounds kind of weird but it' the best way I can express it at the time.

 

[cardero]

Cardero writes: You are assuming that a murder victim has the freedom and the choice to continue their physical existence right up to the point where they were killed as if nothing happened.

Sola’lar writes: Sorry I didn't understand this sentence at all.

Say one person kills another. You also say that this murderer has been given the freedom of choice and chooses to kill that person. Let us say that this murderer is held accountable to God for this action but the justice and punishment does not come until after this murderer dies and passes from this earth.

What of the person who was killed?

What are the choices and freedoms of the murder victim?

Let us say that the murder victim chooses not to be dead but would rather continue their physical existence with their family and loved ones. Can this victim choose to return (alive) to earth and continue their responsibilities with their family? If not, how do you define this as fair and just? How can you prescribe that we’re are given the freedom and choice of killing and discerning or own right or wrong but the victims of murder do not have such a choice to continue living the life in the way and the freedom that they chose for their existence.

Or do you believe it was God’s purpose for them to become a murder statistic?

cardero writes: Have you considered the possibility that GOD does not moderate right and wrong like humans judge right and wrong?

Sola’lar writes: Your right I do assume those things. It's a given. They are part of my faith. i wouldn't assume something that wasn't part of my own belief. If I didn't believe what I believe then i wouldn't believe it.

I wouldn't ask you to adopt or to accept any belief but to just consider it and see where the reasoning take you.

 

[Storm]

Yes God gave us the ability and setup everything. But He's not the one who made choice. Adam made the choice. Eve mad ethe choice. I made the choice. I'm resposible for choosing between the options given to me. Is God responsible for the options we are given? Yes. But I am responsible for using my ability to choose in the right or wrong way. It's all down to that decision I made in my brain. What God setup is irresp[ective of me. The only differing factor in me choosing good or evil is me. With out me, my choices are irrelevent. It sounds kind of weird but it' the best way I can express it at the time.

But Adam and Eve chose out of ignorance.

 

[Magic Man]

But Saying God is responsible for the bad choices of people is like saying if I kill someone my parents should be punished. After all it's their responsibility that I was born.

The difference is that God could actually change us from our core. All I can do is teach my kids, and hope they turn out OK. I can't force them to be any certain way. I can't actually go in and change his/her brain to make him/her a better/happier person. God can make us any way He wants to.

I don't choose for my kids to be imperfect. I have no say in it. God could choose.

 

[Sola'lor]

The difference is that God could actually change us from our core. All I can do is teach my kids, and hope they turn out OK. I can't force them to be any certain way. I can't actually go in and change his/her brain to make him/her a better/happier person. God can make us any way He wants to.

I don't choose for my kids to be imperfect. I have no say in it. God could choose.

But if God changed us it would take away our purpose in being imperfect. God would be making a wrong choice and action by removing our ability to choose good or evil. No offense intended, but it seems that no matter which way it is you want God to be held accountable for all the bad things that happen. God is either accountable because we are imperfect and have the ability to choose. Or God is accountable because He doesn't remove our imperfections so we can't choose evil.

Sorry I have to cut it short. I'm heading home from work. I might get on tonight but most likely tommorrow night during my overnight shift.

Sorry Cardero, I'll have to get back with you.

 

[Magic Man]

But if God changed us it would take away our purpose in being imperfect. God would be making a wrong choice and action by removing our ability to choose good or evil. No offense intended, but it seems that no matter which way it is you want God to be held accountable for all the bad things that happen. God is either accountable because we are imperfect and have the ability to choose. Or God is accountable because He doesn't remove our imperfections so we can't choose evil.

Sorry I have to cut it short. I'm heading home from work. I might get on tonight but most likely tommorrow night during my overnight shift.

Sorry Cardero, I'll have to get back with you.

How could God make a wrong choice? If He did it, it would be perfect/right? And it's only considered wrong by us. He has committed many "sins" by our standards. If He can kill, and have His own perfect reasons for it, then He could make us without free will, if He had His reasons. As you said, there is a difference between human morality and God's morality. Maybe, by His morality, He could make us without free will, and it would be perfectly moral by His standards.

 

[Vasilisa Jade]

At what point do people in general tend to lay blame on God rather than on themselves or other people? Likewise, when do people generally tend to attribute thanks to God? Is there a relationship between those two answers?

I think people tend to start blaming God when the irony in thier life gets out of control. When everyday feels like fairies ****** on your blackberries. Like, when they start to believe thier must be a God because someone MUST be out to get them. Like Bruce Almighty.

Thanks? I dunno....

 

[Sola'lor]

How could God make a wrong choice? If He did it, it would be perfect/right? And it's only considered wrong by us. He has committed many "sins" by our standards. If He can kill, and have His own perfect reasons for it, then He could make us without free will, if He had His reasons. As you said, there is a difference between human morality and God's morality. Maybe, by His morality, He could make us without free will, and it would be perfectly moral by His standards.

This is a good post. I agree with the first part but in reverse. For me the first part of your post is written from our human perspective. I guess I'm looking at it more from God's perspective(I hope that doesn't sound like I'm being proud. I'm just describing another POV). It's just the same as what you described. But I would put it this way. God can't make a wrong choice. Every action God takes is right and perfect. So He wouldn't take any actions that are wrong, according to Him. But as you said some of His actions may seem wrong according to us. So it's basically the same thing.

I would also agree with your last part if viewed from a certain perspective. If I stepped outside of what I believe I would agree with that statement. Anything God would want to be moral would be moral. But because of my beliefs and the scriptures I believe in I don't accept that. The concept of it being acceptable that God would make us without free will is 100% the opposite to what my beliefs teach. But I can understand that concept being acceptable outside of my religious beliefs.

 

[Katzpur]

At what point do people in general tend to lay blame on God rather than on themselves or other people? Likewise, when do people generally tend to attribute thanks to God? Is there a relationship between those two answers?

Good questions. I can only speak for myself, but I believe that absolutely every blessing I have is from God. Seriously, if I find the keys I've misplaced, I thank God for helping me. If I get the program I'm writing to work in a reasonable amount of time, I thank God for giving me the insight I needed. If I have a good night's sleep, I attribute it to God (even if I took a sleeping pill). Conversely, when something bad happens to me, the first thing I wonder is, "Why? What did I do to have that happen to me?" I know, objectively, that it doesn't work that way, but I can't help it. I just have a hard time seeing him as giving me blessings but not stopping the bad things from happening. And I know the bad things are also necessary. I frustrate myself.

 

[tomspug]

Good questions. I can only speak for myself, but I believe that absolutely every blessing I have is from God. Seriously, if I find the keys I've misplaced, I thank God for helping me. If I get the program I'm writing to work in a reasonable amount of time, I thank God for giving me the insight I needed. If I have a good night's sleep, I attribute it to God (even if I took a sleeping pill). Conversely, when something bad happens to me, the first thing I wonder is, "Why? What did I do to have that happen to me?" I know, objectively, that it doesn't work that way, but I can't help it. I just have a hard time seeing him as giving me blessings but not stopping the bad things from happening. And I know the bad things are also necessary. I frustrate myself.

It's interesting. Is it really right to only attribute good things to God and if bad things happen to assume that it's your fault? I would think that if God is to thank for finding your keys he's also to thank for your back pain. I think that God is responsible for both good and bad things, but that it doesn't make him evil. It simply means that he doesn't limit his creation.

He ALLOWS good and bad things to happen and he CREATED them, so he's responsible for the good AND the bad.

 

[Magic Man]

It's interesting. Is it really right to only attribute good things to God and if bad things happen to assume that it's your fault? I would think that if God is to thank for finding your keys he's also to thank for your back pain. I think that God is responsible for both good and bad things, but that it doesn't make him evil. It simply means that he doesn't limit his creation.

He ALLOWS good and bad things to happen and he CREATED them, so he's responsible for the good AND the bad.

Exactly. :yes:

 

[gnostic]

But if God changed us it would take away our purpose in being imperfect.

Excuse me?

What make you think following God, make a person perfect? What make you think that God removing choice to make decision of good and bad, will make a person perfect?

God molded David into becoming king, but David was far from being perfect. God gave wisdom to Solomon, and he was also far from being perfect.

Letting a person to make all decisions, will not make a person perfect. God giving directions (or guiding a person) on choosing the right decision, will not make a person more perfect.

Beside all that, I don't believe in perfection, so I don't believe in a perfect god. If this Abrahamic deity do truly exist, then I see only a imperfect being with astronomical ego than that of Satan.

 

[tomspug]

Excuse me?

What make you think following God, make a person perfect? What make you think that God removing choice to make decision of good and bad, will make a person perfect?

God molded David into becoming king, but David was far from being perfect. God gave wisdom to Solomon, and he was also far from being perfect.

Letting a person to make all decisions, will not make a person perfect. God giving directions (or guiding a person) on choosing the right decision, will not make a person more perfect.

Beside all that, I don't believe in perfection, so I don't believe in a perfect god. If this Abrahamic deity do truly exist, then I see only a imperfect being with astronomical ego than that of Satan.

Exactly. We aren't designed to be perfect. We're designed to do what we were designed to do, which is to love and serve others.

Loving and serving is, by definition, a choice. Take away choice, you take away purpose. It hardly makes us perfect, just useless.

 

[Sola'lor]

Excuse me?

You're excused.

What make you think following God, make a person perfect?

I don't believe anyone can become perfect in this life. But because of what I've learned in my studies perfection is required to live with God. We will never become perfect in this life but at some point we will.

What make you think that God removing choice to make decision of good and bad, will make a person perfect?

I don't believe God removing the choice will make people perfect. I believe the opposite. If God removed our choice we would be little more than robots. We would be unable to attain our full potential as children of God. But the only way we can be set on the path to perfection is by being faced with good and evil and choosing evil. A perfect person would never choose evil. That's why we can never become perfect in this life. No matter how good we are we will still make bad decisions no matter how small.

God molded David into becoming king, but David was far from being perfect. God gave wisdom to Solomon, and he was also far from being perfect.

I agree. As I stated befor. It is impossible for us to reach perfection in this life.

Letting a person to make all decisions, will not make a person perfect. God giving directions (or guiding a person) on choosing the right decision, will not make a person more perfect.

If we followed God's word perfectly eventually we would become perfect. Unfortunatly, or probably fortunatly, we cannot become perfect in this life. But God gave us His words anhd commandments to that we could come closer to perfection in this life. We could put ourselves on the path towards perfection.

Beside all that, I don't believe in perfection, so I don't believe in a perfect god. If this Abrahamic deity do truly exist, then I see only a imperfect being with astronomical ego than that of Satan.

Well if that is your belief I respect that. It is as perfectly valid(pardon the pun) as mine or anyone elses belief.

 

[Popeyesays]

WHen will it do the slightest good to blame God for anything?

Regards,
Scott