When do we blame God?

[Sola'lor]

So, it was God's choice to have someone raped? The point is that our free will is our faulty part. If we didn't have it, we'd be perfect and only do good. He gave us that faulty part.

Ah maybe that's the difference. In my understanding the free will isn't a faulty part. God didn't create us to be choiceless and only do good and be perfect. If we didn't have free will that would be tha faulty part. Our purpose is to grow and learn and make choices. Our purpose on this earth is to choose to follow God and to improve ourselves. It's not a bad thing that people have the ability to choose bad things. It's the whole point of our existence. God created us to choose between good and evil.

In my religion, we believe before we we're born on the earth all of our spirits lived with God. We learned and progressed as far as we could as spirits. We, as children of God, wanted to be more like our Father. But we couldn't. we had prgressed as far as we could. So in order for us to progress God told us of a plan whereby we could become more like Him. The plan was that we would come to earth, gain physical bodies and through our choices determine if we are able to handle a physical body. A physical body is a vital step to progressing and becoming more like our Father. God knew that no one would be able to handle a body and make the perfect choices neccesary to return to Him. So He provided a Saviour for us. With a Saviour we would be still be able to return to Him if we followed the Saviour to the best we can. In this council where God showed us His plan, one Spirit presented us with another plan. In this Spirit's plan non of God's children would be lost. He would do this by eliminating our ability to choose evil. We would only be able to choose good. In return this Spirit wanted all of God's power and glory. Most of God's children stuck with God's perfect plan. Some of them chose to follow the other Spirit. After everyone decided, God cast out the Spirit that had his own plan and all those that followed him. That Spirit became Satan.

But the point is that in our religion, it isn't a bad thing that we have the ability to choose evil. Evil actions are evil but the ability to choose is not. The idea that God would have us only choose good is evil for us.

But I figured our where our difference lies.

 

[tomspug]

The third option would be an inconsistent God that gets to decide who and who not to punish. Well, there you've got your God of Chaos, which obviously can't be a loving God either. So there's your paradox.

If you want a God that prevents evil, what you're really asking for is for God not to exist (which I'm sure many of you already believe anyway).

 

[Storm]

I still don't understand. Do we believe that freedom is a good thing or what? If you had to choose between a world where bad things happen but you had the freedom to choose between right and wrong or a world where only good things happen but you have no control over your own actions? Can anyone pick one?

That depends. If eternal damnation is the price of choosing wrong, I go with an absence of free will.

 

[tomspug]

I'll take the latter, please. I can do without all the bad stuff.

You can get that by plugging yourself into a computer. I'm sure it will be possible in a few decades or so.

 

[A Lurking Shadow]

I still don't understand. Do we believe that freedom is a good thing or what? If you had to choose between a world where bad things happen but you had the freedom to choose between right and wrong or a world where only good things happen but you have no control over your own actions? Can anyone pick one?

God doesn't offer a world where you can choose between right and wrong. God offers an amusement park in which half the rides send you straight to hell. Whats 80 years of life to an eternity of agony?

 

[Magic Man]

Ah maybe that's the difference. In my understanding the free will isn't a faulty part. God didn't create us to be choiceless and only do good and be perfect. If we didn't have free will that would be tha faulty part. Our purpose is to grow and learn and make choices. Our purpose on this earth is to choose to follow God and to improve ourselves. It's not a bad thing that people have the ability to choose bad things. It's the whole point of our existence. God created us to choose between good and evil.

In my religion, we believe before we we're born on the earth all of our spirits lived with God. We learned and progressed as far as we could as spirits. We, as children of God, wanted to be more like our Father. But we couldn't. we had prgressed as far as we could. So in order for us to progress God told us of a plan whereby we could become more like Him. The plan was that we would come to earth, gain physical bodies and through our choices determine if we are able to handle a physical body. A physical body is a vital step to progressing and becoming more like our Father. God knew that no one would be able to handle a body and make the perfect choices neccesary to return to Him. So He provided a Saviour for us. With a Saviour we would be still be able to return to Him if we followed the Saviour to the best we can. In this council where God showed us His plan, one Spirit presented us with another plan. In this Spirit's plan non of God's children would be lost. He would do this by eliminating our ability to choose evil. We would only be able to choose good. In return this Spirit wanted all of God's power and glory. Most of God's children stuck with God's perfect plan. Some of them chose to follow the other Spirit. After everyone decided, God cast out the Spirit that had his own plan and all those that followed him. That Spirit became Satan.

But the point is that in our religion, it isn't a bad thing that we have the ability to choose evil. Evil actions are evil but the ability to choose is not. The idea that God would have us only choose good is evil for us.

But I figured our where our difference lies.

I understand that. Would you consider a murderer faulty, or at least someone who has faults? Would you consider yourself to have faults? I assume the answers are yes. Then the question is why do you have faults? The answer is your ability to choose. Whatever causes the fault to occur is then a faulty part.

 

[Sola'lor]

That's dodging the question. You asked who would punish God if He did wrong. I understand that you believe God does no wrong, but if you want to understand why people blame Him, you have to consider a different perspective. So, shouldn't God do the right thing simply because it is right, and not out of fear of punishment for doing wrong?

Sorry I may not have clarified. I wasn't trying to avoid the question. My answer to that question was implied in my answer. I don't believe God can fear punishment since there is no one to punish Him. So since that isn't a possibility the only thing left is for god to do good because it is the right thing. But i would rephrase that to be, God only does the right thing because the right thing is the perfect thing to do.

 

[Storm]

Sorry I may not have clarified. I wasn't trying to avoid the question. My answer to that question was implied in my answer. I don't believe God can fear punishment since there is no one to punish Him. So since that isn't a possibility the only thing left is for god to do good because it is the right thing. But i would rephrase that to be, God only does the right thing because the right thing is the perfect thing to do.

OK, so we agree that God should do the right thing simply because it is good.

Now for the problem of free will. Do you believe that God has Created absolute morality? That this is the morality of Christianity?

 

[tomspug]

I think a big problem is that we try to differentiate ourselves by saying this person should be restricted because they are bad. But I should not be restricted because I am a good person. So life becomes a blame game where the goal is to not be the one with the guilt over our heads.

If we simply didn't play the blame game, then we wouldn't feel the need to blame God.

It is interesting to think that the very BASIS of this argument, that a moral God would stop evil, comes from some inner human desire for justice in the universe. Where exactly does that desire come from? Perhaps it is God Himself that teaches us to desire justice, the very desire that causes us to not believe in Him.

 

[Sola'lor]

I understand that. Would you consider a murderer faulty, or at least someone who has faults? Would you consider yourself to have faults? I assume the answers are yes. Then the question is why do you have faults? The answer is your ability to choose. Whatever causes the fault to occur is then a faulty part.

I would agree I have faults. But my ability to choose isn't the fault. My imperfect physical body and mentality would be the fault. My physical body and imperfect understanding influence me into making bad choices. Again, it's not my ability to choose that is the fault. It's my imperfection that is that fault.

 

[A Lurking Shadow]

It is interesting to think that the very BASIS of this argument, that a moral God would stop evil, comes from some inner human desire for justice in the universe. Where exactly does that desire come from? Perhaps it is God Himself that teaches us to desire justice, the very desire that causes us to not believe in Him.

Good and Evil are meaningless words. A benevolent being would not be able to watch its creation suffer as greatly as humanity has. To claim God "loves us" and then to claim we cannot understand his plan is to undermine our capacity to reason. I've been to several developing countries and I don't find the disparity in living conditions between myself and them to be reasonable. I also don't find it reasonable that as God creates us equally we all live with such inequity.

 

[Storm]

I would agree I have faults. But my ability to choose isn't the fault. My imperfect physical body and mentality would be the fault. My physical body and imperfect understanding influence me into making bad choices. Again, it's not my ability to choose that is the fault. It's my imperfection that is that fault.

Is your Creator not ultimately responsible for that imperfection, though?

 

[Magic Man]

I would agree I have faults. But my ability to choose isn't the fault. My imperfect physical body and mentality would be the fault. My physical body and imperfect understanding influence me into making bad choices. Again, it's not my ability to choose that is the fault. It's my imperfection that is that fault.

In any case, God created the imperfect body, or the imperfect mentality, so it still leads directly back to Him.

EDIT: Dangit, Storm, you need to stop saying what I say right before I do! :slap:

 

[cardero]

Sola’lar writes: He is. It's not that those that commit crimes won't be punished. They might not be punished the instant they commit a crime but they will be punished eventually.

You are assuming too much.

You are assuming that GOD considers these crimes.
You are assuming that GOD punishes.
You are assuming that GOD is a GOD of justice.
You are assuming that people will witness and comply with this sense of latent justice.

Sola’lar writes: Everyone will be held accountable for their actions.

You are assuming that repentance will relieve them of that accountability.
You are assuming that the victims of crime will receive a heavenly compensation.

Sola’lar writes:We are talking about concious individuals with the ability to make choices for themselves and to be held accountable for those choices.

You are assuming that a murder victim has the freedom and the choice to continue their physical existence right up to the point where they were killed as if nothing happened.

There is just to much faith in this explanation. Have you considered the possibility that GOD does not moderate right and wrong like humans judge right and wrong?

 

[Sola'lor]

OK, so we agree that God should do the right thing simply because it is good.

Now for the problem of free will. Do you believe that God has Created absolute morality? That this is the morality of Christianity?

I don't believe that certain actions are more moral than other on the basis of those actions alone. Only when an action is in context does any form of morality form. Morality is determined by the prespective of the group that practices it. That is speaking irrespective og God. As a believer in God, I believe that whatever God chooses to be moral then that is what is moral. Is God's morality the morality of Christianity? I would say that Christianities' morality(but more specific, LDS morality, becuase in many cases there is a huge difference with LDS and the rest of Christianity) contains some of God's morality. But it is more of a guide to help us reach the levelof God's morality. I don't believe Christianity brings us to the level that God ultimatly wants us to be at. But I believe it helps us improve ourselves so we can reach the next level neccesary for us to become what God wants us to be.

So basically Christianity contains God's morality but distilled down to a level that we can use it to improve ourselves. I think that if God was to present us everything straight on in it's purest form there's no way any of us would be able to make it.

 

[Storm]

Sola'lor, I'm afraid I just don't grasp LDS views of God quite well enough to really put my argument into your terms. Sorry.

 

[Sola'lor]

In any case, God created the imperfect body, or the imperfect mentality, so it still leads directly back to Him.

EDIT: Dangit, Storm, you need to stop saying what I say right before I do! :slap:

This goes for Storm too. hehehe.

I don't believe God created our imperfect bodies. My mother formed my imperfect body. I believe God created Adam and Eve with perfect bodies. But because Satan tempted Adam and Eve to eat of the fruit, their bodies became imperfect. So it is through mankind's own actions that our bodies are imperfect.


You've kept me busy with this thread. I haven't had a chance to check any others. It's fun.

 

[Storm]

This goes for Storm too. hehehe.

I don't believe God created our imperfect bodies. My mother formed my imperfect body. I believe God created Adam and Eve with perfect bodies. But because Satan tempted Adam and Eve to eat of the fruit, their bodies became imperfect. So it is through mankind's own actions that our bodies are imperfect.


You've kept me busy with this thread. I haven't had a chance to check any others. It's fun.

OK, so who created Satan?

EDIT: Also, who Created the fruit and put it in the Garden? If GOd is omnimax, (and I honestly don't know if He is in your views) then He is ultimately responsible.

 

[Magic Man]

I don't believe that certain actions are more moral than other on the basis of those actions alone. Only when an action is in context does any form of morality form. Morality is determined by the prespective of the group that practices it. That is speaking irrespective og God. As a believer in God, I believe that whatever God chooses to be moral then that is what is moral. Is God's morality the morality of Christianity? I would say that Christianities' morality(but more specific, LDS morality, becuase in many cases there is a huge difference with LDS and the rest of Christianity) contains some of God's morality. But it is more of a guide to help us reach the levelof God's morality. I don't believe Christianity brings us to the level that God ultimatly wants us to be at. But I believe it helps us improve ourselves so we can reach the next level neccesary for us to become what God wants us to be.

So basically Christianity contains God's morality but distilled down to a level that we can use it to improve ourselves. I think that if God was to present us everything straight on in it's purest form there's no way any of us would be able to make it.

Then I just wonder "Why not just give us the ability to understand the whole morality". He doesn't even have to make us perfect, just capable enough to understand more.

 

[Sola'lor]

You are assuming too much.

You are assuming that GOD considers these crimes.
You are assuming that GOD punishes.
You are assuming that GOD is a GOD of justice.
You are assuming that people will witness and comply with this sense of latent justice.

You are assuming that repentance will relieve them of that accountability.
You are assuming that the victims of crime will receive a heavenly compensation.

There is just to much faith in this explanation. Have you considered the possibility that GOD does not moderate right and wrong like humans judge right and wrong?

Your right I do assume those things. It's a given. They are part of my faith. i wouldn't assume something that wasn't part of my own belief. If I didn't believe what I believe then i wouldn't believe it.

You are assuming that a murder victim has the freedom and the choice to continue their physical existence right up to the point where they were killed as if nothing happened.

Sorry I didn't understand this sentence at all.