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What would it mean to your religious beliefs if evolution were true?

If I were convinced that humans evolved from previous animals...

  • ...it would have no impact on my religious views

    Votes: 37 90.2%
  • ...it would have a slight impact on my religious views

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • ...I would have to completely reassess my religious views

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • ...I would have to abandon my religious views

    Votes: 3 7.3%
  • ...I could no longer believe in my god(s)

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • ...I could not believe in any god.

    Votes: 1 2.4%

  • Total voters
    41

rational experiences

Veteran Member
I believe in evolution and my beliefs are fine. The big question is what if the higher power were Aliens; why would they stick around and micromanage it so long?
Said by a human as a human living because two humans had human sex.

Which no scientist theirselves as humans uses as first logic.

Who claims aliens are hiding in nature garden and not nature's garden.

Then says once my title was a satanist in science who caused conjured artificial earth effects by destroying fused fusion. Chemicals.

Earth based chemicals ground aligned to roots of garden nature first he says.

Then I changed my title to scientist so you wouldn't realise I did it.
 

Dan From Smithville

What we've got here is failure to communicate.
Staff member
Premium Member
When I was a Christian, I was a theistic evolutionist; meaning that I believed in God, and that the processes of the natural world had been set in place to accomplish his ends. In other words, there was no conflict between my faith and any of the currently accepted scientific theories. As a result, it very much perplexed me when Christians who found out I was not a believer would start talking about evolution and the Big Bang Theory - or more accurately, what their church had falsely taught them about evolution and the Big Bang Theory. For them it was an important theological point. For me, evolution was no more meaningful to my belief in a god than heliocentrism.

How much would the theory of evolution being true impact your beliefs. And why?
It has not effected my belief in God. I don't hold a literalist interpretation of the entire Bible and I do not find that position has negatively impacts my faith. Personally, I find a literalist interpretation is in some ways deifying the Bible and placing demands on God. My personal views on Christianity do put me at odds with other Christians. But that seems to be inherent in the religion considering how many different sects, branches, denominations or whatever you want to call them there are.
 

Dan From Smithville

What we've got here is failure to communicate.
Staff member
Premium Member
I am afraid that they are listing to their Pastors. In the US, the largest protestant churches are officially creationists. Even if all their members are not. The Southern Baptist convention being the largest by far.
That would be my group. I'm an outlier.
 

rational experiences

Veteran Member
A natural man human is first everyone.

Owns no intention of his owned life harm.

The natural man human men agreed are a cult group thought thesis named science.

Science did not exist.

Natural presence did.

Natural man sacrificed did not state I did it to myself.

Is your biggest mistake.

Instead he asked his adult father why did it occur speaking to himself. He wasn't a baby. He was an adult theist.

The natural human man is the destroyer.

Ignored.

His natural conscious life memories are mixed with his mother human sister daughter all innocent.

He was guilty. Guilty causes him to lie due to egotism.

Was his man natural theist owned human teachings.

Science man natural man owned some personal man beliefs plus his stated science of man thesis.

Isn't in conflict and was only suggesting he was wrong. About science. By bible term.

Seeing the science of God is only a humans thesis about earth. By humans.

The bible taught his man conscious identity changed he was now possessed by his own mans thesis.

As one of is species type and two of species type procreates continuance.

As fused fusion owns no formula or numbers inside a heavens with a man standing on earth.

A thesis or a story is told by any natural human first before any intention I impose science. As one human.

If one human doesn't say two humans first and human sex is about a humans future then as a scientist they are lying.
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
When I was a Christian, I was a theistic evolutionist; meaning that I believed in God, and that the processes of the natural world had been set in place to accomplish his ends. In other words, there was no conflict between my faith and any of the currently accepted scientific theories. As a result, it very much perplexed me when Christians who found out I was not a believer would start talking about evolution and the Big Bang Theory - or more accurately, what their church had falsely taught them about evolution and the Big Bang Theory. For them it was an important theological point. For me, evolution was no more meaningful to my belief in a god than heliocentrism.

How much would the theory of evolution being true impact your beliefs. And why?
Heliocentrism?

Eek!

Blasphemer!!!
 

Mock Turtle

Oh my, did I say that!
Premium Member
I find it interesting when Christians tell me that the theory of evolution is consistent with their faith. They've accepted that evolution occurs, they believe in God, and therefore, the two are compatible. But are they?

Do they believe that God created man in His own image? If so, how does that comport with Darwin's theory?
77620_lbesbmlggxp9hut_full.jpeg
 

exchemist

Veteran Member
Omphalos hypothesis - Wikipedia
this is how I reason it to myself. I believe in the scientific evidence that is provided. I was taught as a kid that evolution was a lie, yet I understand we can observe evolution in real time, so it is not a lie. The Omphalos hypothesis allows for me to accept the scientific evidence as well as a young earth creationist theory.so In this way I have departed from the beliefs I was raised in.
That is an extraordinarily ridiculous and damaging idea - that God put the fossils in the rocks to fool the scientists. How can you believe in a mendacious God that indulges in cruel trickery?

But this sort of madness is what one gets into if one adheres - for no good reason - to the c.19th extreme Protestant notion that every word of the bible has to be taken literally. Early Christians were well aware that, due to the internal contradictions it contains (starting with two contradictory accounts of creation in Genesis, actually) one cannot take every word literally - there has to be interpretation. Some of it has to be taken figuratively rather than literally. That being so, it is daft to dismiss all the evidence of the age of the earth, the age of the cosmos and the development of life, merely to preserve the illusion that everything in the bible is literally true.

Why should every word be literally true? Who says it must be? The answer is: nobody, but a little clique of preachers.
 

ppp

Well-Known Member
If I was honest with myself and what I believe the Bible teaches, I would have to forsake my faith. Being made in the image of God is very foundational in my own faith. I cannot reconcile faith in Christ with belief in evolution. One or the other would have to go.
I say I cannot reconcile this faith in Christ with evolution because I believe that Jesus taught the opposite of evolution.
What did Jesus teach that was the opposite of evolution?
 

wellwisher

Well-Known Member
When I was a Christian, I was a theistic evolutionist; meaning that I believed in God, and that the processes of the natural world had been set in place to accomplish his ends. In other words, there was no conflict between my faith and any of the currently accepted scientific theories. As a result, it very much perplexed me when Christians who found out I was not a believer would start talking about evolution and the Big Bang Theory - or more accurately, what their church had falsely taught them about evolution and the Big Bang Theory. For them it was an important theological point. For me, evolution was no more meaningful to my belief in a god than heliocentrism.

How much would the theory of evolution being true impact your beliefs. And why?

It does not impact my belief, since I believe that Genesis is addressing a specific stage of evolution and not all of evolution. This new stage is connected to the advancement into modern humans and the rise of civilization which characterizes the change.

God is spirit instead of matter. This change was not about DNA; matter and mutations, but rather this change was more about the a new type of consciousness that caused profound changes. Will power and choice allowed this new type of human the ability to make choices that were not natural or part of their DNA. A choice between Pepsi and Coke, is not in my DNA, since our DNA takes time to change. These choices are new and governed by the mass mind; social programming.

In modern times, the transsexual requires a wide range of man made things to be made whole; cyborg. This total change is not exactly only about their DNA and natural selection. It require artificial additives; medications and surgeries, connected to will and choice; science and money. The change from natural selection, to manmade selection, began about 6000 years ago and was connected to the new type of human. They looked the same as other humans, had human DNA, but their consciousness was far more expanded. They would go on and replace natural humans as the pinnacle species. It is nearly impossible to find pockets of purely natural humans, anymore, anywhere on earth.

Science has shown that the invention of written language appeared about 6000 years ago. This science based timing coordinates with the Bible claim of the appearance of this new type of human, who was closer to the angels, with will power and choice, apart from the human instincts on their DNA.

Even the Bible itself, in the story of Cain and Abel, tells how after Cain kills Abel, and Cain is about to be sent away, he complains that whoever shall come upon him shall kill him? The question is, if Adam and Eve were the first two humans and Cain and Abel were their only two children at that time, who were these whomever that Cain was afraid of? These other human were from the last natural generation of humans. They were connected by human DNA but lacked will and choice; the natural and instinctive humans, who were still part of natural selection.

Cain was a tiller of the soil and Abel was a herder of animals. When Cain kills Abel, this symbolized farming and civilization superseding the natural migratory herders, who had been around since the end of the last ice age. Those whomever, were the friends and contemporaries of Abel, who was also a herder of animals. Cain, who kill his natural brother Abel, knew his friends would see the writing on the wall; end of an era, and fight against him. God gives Cain a talisman for protection. The new was part of the Divine plan.

This story also tells us something of the breeding between Adam and Eve. Both are formed in ways other than natural procreation. However, Adam and Eve produced one child who was of the same genetic makeup as the migratory humans; Abel was natural herder of animals. Cain was more willful and chose the new cutting edge invention of farming. He willfully rebelled against his natural brother, based on knowledge of good and evil; cutting edge. This knowledge brought unnatural behavior into the world.

In terms of written language, this had the affect of repressing natural instinct. Before writing, behavioral control by law would be limited in time and scope, as the memory forgets and times change. When the same ideas become carved into stone; by written language, there was now a way to perpetuate even bad law; as it was written so it shall be done. This allowed law of good and evil to outlast its usefulness, even for generations, causing repression of natural instinct, from which sublimations occurred. The change was not based on DNA and natural selection, but was based on conscious choices that caused repressions and sublimations; software or spirit, instead of hardware and DNA; unnatural selection.
 
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mangalavara

सो ऽहम्
Premium Member
It has not effected my belief in God. I don't hold a literalist interpretation of the entire Bible and I do not find that position has negatively impacts my faith. Personally, I find a literalist interpretation is in some ways deifying the Bible and placing demands on God

What you say reminds me of Alister McGrath's view that religion and science have their own roles. Science explains the 'how' of natural phenomena while religion tells us the 'why' behind it all.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
The reliability of the Scriptures as a whole and how God made man and woman.
Not if the Creation accounts [there's more than 1 in Genesis] are more viewed as being allegorical, which most Christian theologians believe they are.
 

Psalm23

Well-Known Member
Not if the Creation accounts [there's more than 1 in Genesis] are more viewed as being allegorical, which most Christian theologians believe they are.

I do not get that impression myself; however, everyone is entitled on their own views on the matter.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
I do not get that impression myself; however, everyone is entitled on their own views on the matter.
Yes, we all do have our opinions, no doubt. But, imo, the Creation accounts if taken at the literal level simply don't make sense, especially in light of what cosmology and early Earth history clearly tell us.

Instead, I tend to see these accounts to likely be a counter to the earlier and much more widespread Babylonian creation narrative that's polytheistic and makes creation being partially evil.

Thus, inside our creation accounts we have valuable information, much of which we take for granted today, such as there being One God, the universe being a "good" creation, and then that feeds into the Fall narrative that explain where evil comes into play through our disobedience to God.

IOW, these are great lessons, imo, and a reflection of the art of storytelling as being an extension of our early oral tradition.
 

Clara Tea

Well-Known Member
When I was a Christian, I was a theistic evolutionist; meaning that I believed in God, and that the processes of the natural world had been set in place to accomplish his ends. In other words, there was no conflict between my faith and any of the currently accepted scientific theories. As a result, it very much perplexed me when Christians who found out I was not a believer would start talking about evolution and the Big Bang Theory - or more accurately, what their church had falsely taught them about evolution and the Big Bang Theory. For them it was an important theological point. For me, evolution was no more meaningful to my belief in a god than heliocentrism.

How much would the theory of evolution being true impact your beliefs. And why?

Clara Tea's opinions:

1. The Catholic church was wrong to torture scientists who said that meteors came from God's perfect sky.

2. The Christians are wrong to ban condoms (that prevent pregnancies and STDs like AIDS), because they don't condone sexual intercourse. Scientists say that we should prevent the spread of diseases.

3. Though it is a large leap from bonobo chimps to mankind, and there doesn't seem to be much of a link connecting them, DNA clearly shows that the missing chromosome is caused by two merged chromosomes. Furthermore, all life is related by DNA, and science has proven that.

To deny science is to lie. God/Christ doesn't like liars. What would heaven be if liars were there?

Not all atheists are scientists. Nor are all scientists atheists. Many scientists are devout theists (many are Christian). One of my best friends is a physics professor, son of an ordained evangelical preacher, and personally highly religious. The last time that we spoke, it was almost totally about religion.

I think that both science and religion can be right. But, I think that both sides have to bend a little. Theists have to bend to accept that DNA and evolution are right (the pope agrees, but the pope says that God guided evolution). Many disbelieve science out of ignorance. Science is difficult to learn, and very few have the necessary educational background to learn it. Charleton theists often dabble in what looks like science (to non-scientists), and they come up with pseudo-logical arguments and pseudo-facts to assert that science proves the existence of God. To real scientists, their arguments are laughable....though I refrain from laughing because I know that they have limited resources at their disposal, and they feel passionately about God. Many theists are very very good people who try to help the poor and the sick, and they volunteer at churches and hospitals. Our family friend was one such good person. His sterling virtues were an inspiration to us all. But the world is badly messed up right now. The war in Iraq was a travesty, in which the United States was going to police the world (and it is too expensive to do, and loss of life is staggering, and in the end, the Middle East got riled up because of the United States presence, which caused more volunteers to join ISIS (a pseudonym for the al Qaeda). We have to be careful not to mix religion with politics, because invariably bad people get into office who don't really understand God's wishes (thou shalt not kill, for example). They rape God's environment, ignore the homeless, and tell lies to cover up their devious plots (like the torture camp in Guantanamo, and the Iran Contra scandle that supported a Contra dictatorship, starved and kept ignorant the Sandinista people, and armed the dictatorship of Iran behind the backs of Congress (not out in the open so the voters could approve or disapprove).

There are many points of disagreement between science and theology. One is that theists claim that the universe is 6,000 years old and scientists have proven that the universe is 13.8 trillion years old (and dinosaur fossils are ancient). It could be that God merely wants to fool us with false evidence. But more likely, God's time is not the same as human time (entirely possible according to science because time is relative. In strong gravitational fields, general relativity says that time slows, and at fast speeds, special relativity says that time slows (dilates). So, science actually agrees that the earth could be 6,000 years old from someone's perspective.

Similarly, many parts of the bible seem plausible when science is used to analyze them. For example, it was just determined that the walls of Jericho were "likely" knocked down by an icy meteorite (charred dirt and debris is 5 feet deep for 14 miles from Jericho to the point of impact), and the towns of Sodom and Gomorrah were also nearby and possibly destroyed by the fiery blast of the same meteor. Diamonds (microscopic) were found in the soil, indicating tremendous heat and pressure, that could not be formed in regular fires or other natural disasters. So, it appears that it is no myth that the walls of Jericho really did come tumbling down (as the song says).

My suggestion, then, is to not question science unless you intend to spend a great deal of time studying it. Try to understand the concepts, and if there is an obvious disagreement between science and theology, try to resolve it, and try to seek out real scientists to help you figure out what could be done to make both science and theology agree.
 

Clara Tea

Well-Known Member
Yes, we all do have our opinions, no doubt. But, imo, the Creation accounts if taken at the literal level simply don't make sense, especially in light of what cosmology and early Earth history clearly tell us.

Instead, I tend to see these accounts to likely be a counter to the earlier and much more widespread Babylonian creation narrative that's polytheistic and makes creation being partially evil.

Thus, inside our creation accounts we have valuable information, much of which we take for granted today, such as there being One God, the universe being a "good" creation, and then that feeds into the Fall narrative that explain where evil comes into play through our disobedience to God.

IOW, these are great lessons, imo, and a reflection of the art of storytelling as being an extension of our early oral tradition.

I was just listening to Plato's account of Atlantis. According to Plato, the greek Gods created the island (or concentric islands) of Atlantis. So, even one of the greatest philosophers that ever existed was religious (though didn't share Christian notions).
 

Clara Tea

Well-Known Member
I believe in a young earth, so I would have to alter my religious beliefs drastically. I believe man is distinctly not an animal nor did we come from one.
I proposed on a thread that God created an aged universe with fully evolved beings 6000 years ago. RFians let me know I believed in "Last Thursdayism" but I view that as an incorrect label of the idea. "God could've made the whole world last thursday with your logic!" I was told. But I don't think we were made last Thursday, we were made already fully evolved 6000 years ago (my belief). I'm a biblical literalist, one of the few on this site, so yea if someone could convince me we share a common ancestor as monkeys I could no longer be a biblical literalist.

Argue with me for a while, and you will be convinced that I'm very closely akin to a monkey (or worse).

DNA clearly shows kinship between monkeys and humans. DNA is used as court evidence, so it is considered quite good.
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
It has not effected my belief in God. I don't hold a literalist interpretation of the entire Bible and I do not find that position has negatively impacts my faith. Personally, I find a literalist interpretation is in some ways deifying the Bible and placing demands on God. My personal views on Christianity do put me at odds with other Christians. But that seems to be inherent in the religion considering how many different sects, branches, denominations or whatever you want to call them there are.
Ok, let’s challenge that. Personally, I think that something so fundamentally naturalistic flies in the face of a belief for a benevolent God Who knows what He wants. On account of that mechanism being ugly, bloody, preying on the weak and helpless, inefficient and totally amoral. Driven by natural mass extinctions, earthquakes, disastrous climate changes, etc. requiring the utter killing of entire species, so that an insignificant looking like rodent, which hid several millions years in a stinking hole, could evolve in such a way to become the pinnacle of god ‘s creation?

So, do you really believe that humans were the intended goal, or do you think that random mutations and selection could have, together with the contingent flight course of huge asteroids and other catastrophes, in principle, could have led to another race needing a redeemer? Say, velociraptors?

In other words, do you think that the course of history on earth has been prepared so that one third of God, the Son, could still have a job, or was it in principle possible that things could have worked out in such a way that He had none?

ciao

- viole
 
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exchemist

Veteran Member
Clara Tea's opinions:

1. The Catholic church was wrong to torture scientists who said that meteors came from God's perfect sky.

2. The Christians are wrong to ban condoms (that prevent pregnancies and STDs like AIDS), because they don't condone sexual intercourse. Scientists say that we should prevent the spread of diseases.

3. Though it is a large leap from bonobo chimps to mankind, and there doesn't seem to be much of a link connecting them, DNA clearly shows that the missing chromosome is caused by two merged chromosomes. Furthermore, all life is related by DNA, and science has proven that.

To deny science is to lie. God/Christ doesn't like liars. What would heaven be if liars were there?

Not all atheists are scientists. Nor are all scientists atheists. Many scientists are devout theists (many are Christian). One of my best friends is a physics professor, son of an ordained evangelical preacher, and personally highly religious. The last time that we spoke, it was almost totally about religion.

I think that both science and religion can be right. But, I think that both sides have to bend a little. Theists have to bend to accept that DNA and evolution are right (the pope agrees, but the pope says that God guided evolution). Many disbelieve science out of ignorance. Science is difficult to learn, and very few have the necessary educational background to learn it. Charleton theists often dabble in what looks like science (to non-scientists), and they come up with pseudo-logical arguments and pseudo-facts to assert that science proves the existence of God. To real scientists, their arguments are laughable....though I refrain from laughing because I know that they have limited resources at their disposal, and they feel passionately about God. Many theists are very very good people who try to help the poor and the sick, and they volunteer at churches and hospitals. Our family friend was one such good person. His sterling virtues were an inspiration to us all. But the world is badly messed up right now. The war in Iraq was a travesty, in which the United States was going to police the world (and it is too expensive to do, and loss of life is staggering, and in the end, the Middle East got riled up because of the United States presence, which caused more volunteers to join ISIS (a pseudonym for the al Qaeda). We have to be careful not to mix religion with politics, because invariably bad people get into office who don't really understand God's wishes (thou shalt not kill, for example). They rape God's environment, ignore the homeless, and tell lies to cover up their devious plots (like the torture camp in Guantanamo, and the Iran Contra scandle that supported a Contra dictatorship, starved and kept ignorant the Sandinista people, and armed the dictatorship of Iran behind the backs of Congress (not out in the open so the voters could approve or disapprove).

There are many points of disagreement between science and theology. One is that theists claim that the universe is 6,000 years old and scientists have proven that the universe is 13.8 trillion years old (and dinosaur fossils are ancient). It could be that God merely wants to fool us with false evidence. But more likely, God's time is not the same as human time (entirely possible according to science because time is relative. In strong gravitational fields, general relativity says that time slows, and at fast speeds, special relativity says that time slows (dilates). So, science actually agrees that the earth could be 6,000 years old from someone's perspective.

Similarly, many parts of the bible seem plausible when science is used to analyze them. For example, it was just determined that the walls of Jericho were "likely" knocked down by an icy meteorite (charred dirt and debris is 5 feet deep for 14 miles from Jericho to the point of impact), and the towns of Sodom and Gomorrah were also nearby and possibly destroyed by the fiery blast of the same meteor. Diamonds (microscopic) were found in the soil, indicating tremendous heat and pressure, that could not be formed in regular fires or other natural disasters. So, it appears that it is no myth that the walls of Jericho really did come tumbling down (as the song says).

My suggestion, then, is to not question science unless you intend to spend a great deal of time studying it. Try to understand the concepts, and if there is an obvious disagreement between science and theology, try to resolve it, and try to seek out real scientists to help you figure out what could be done to make both science and theology agree.

Mainstream Christian theology does not challenge the scientific account of the age of the cosmos, that of the earth, or the processes of development of life revealed in the fossil record.

I had not heard of these scientists you say were tortured by the Catholic church over the origin of meteors. Can you direct me to any references for this? It sounds rather unlikely.
 
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