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What to do if it is difficult to understand a theist

Spirit of Light

Be who ever you want
Let me turn this a little different than my last OP

This OP are made for those who struggle to understand what a theist speak about, so it is not a thread to discuss the theist, but an OP for non believers to explain them self what is needed for them to understand a theists words in RF

In the other OP i realized it may be difficult to understand what i trying to speak about. It was words that i use that seem to be difficult, like "spiritual awakening" "seek from within" and so on. Is those words difficult to understand? (i used them for so many years i got maybe to used to its meaning)

Does other theists or believers struggle to understand example my words or meaning in RF?

Do you struggle to understand all theists generally in RF?

If you are a atheist, is it your lack of belief that make it difficult to understand theists? because you "do not believe in a God" ? So how can a theist explain it as if God do exist when they can not see God?
 

AlexanderG

Active Member
I understand the ideas and arguments that theists generally convey. What I don't understand is how those ideas and arguments are good enough for them to believe in a god.

Granted, concepts like "spiritual awakening" are very vague. I've never heard two people define "spiritual" the same way and so unless you can specifically describe what you mean then it's not a useful term for conveying ideas in a conversation. I find this vague abstraction more common in Eastern religious thought. Western philosophy and theology tend to define their terms as specifically as possible, though there are exceptions.
 

Spirit of Light

Be who ever you want
I understand the ideas and arguments that theists generally convey. What I don't understand is how those ideas and arguments are good enough for them to believe in a god.

Granted, concepts like "spiritual awakening" are very vague. I've never heard two people define "spiritual" the same way and so unless you can specifically describe what you mean then it's not a useful term for conveying ideas in a conversation. I find this vague abstraction more common in Eastern religious thought. Western philosophy and theology tend to define their terms as specifically as possible, though there are exceptions.
A spiritual awakening can generally be defined as a newfound awareness of a spiritual reality. No person can fully define a spiritual awakening for another. Of course, each person has a different outlook on life and defines things differently. It can happen at any moment or period in your life.

So you see, the awakening is the realiation of wisdom from God (for those who belive in God) But there is awakening in buddhism too (awakening to the wisdom of Buddha)
 

AlexanderG

Active Member
A spiritual awakening can generally be defined as a newfound awareness of a spiritual reality. No person can fully define a spiritual awakening for another. Of course, each person has a different outlook on life and defines things differently. It can happen at any moment or period in your life.

So you see, the awakening is the realiation of wisdom from God (for those who belive in God) But there is awakening in buddhism too (awakening to the wisdom of Buddha)

Ok, but what if I gain a newfound awareness of a spiritual reality that contains spiritual plants but no gods or beings with minds? What if the spiritual reality I discover contains a spiritual void that I realize destroys any gods that exist or attempt to exist? What if it's full of spiritual creatures that eat human souls after we die, destroying us utterly? Who could gainsay me, or anyone else, no matter what is claimed?

I'm really trying to see how a "spiritual awakening" is functionally different from a "thing I personally imagined that I found very compelling and meaningful." I just don't see the difference, nor how you could reliably show a difference. And I don't believe in imaginary things.
 

Spirit of Light

Be who ever you want
Ok, but what if I gain a newfound awareness of a spiritual reality that contains spiritual plants but no gods or beings with minds? What if the spiritual reality I discover contains a spiritual void that I realize destroys any gods that exist or attempt to exist? What if it's full of spiritual creatures that eat human souls after we die, destroying us utterly? Who could gainsay me, or anyone else, no matter what is claimed?

I'm really trying to see how a "spiritual awakening" is functionally different from a "thing I personally imagined that I found very compelling and meaningful." I just don't see the difference, nor how you could reliably show a difference. And I don't believe in imaginary things.
To be honest, i can not answer your question, not because i do not want to, but i do not have the answer fully understood my self.
 

Spirit of Light

Be who ever you want
Fence sitter.
like this :confused:

fence-sitter.jpg
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
Let me turn this a little different than my last OP

This OP are made for those who struggle to understand what a theist speak about, so it is not a thread to discuss the theist, but an OP for non believers to explain them self what is needed for them to understand a theists words in RF

In the other OP i realized it may be difficult to understand what i trying to speak about. It was words that i use that seem to be difficult, like "spiritual awakening" "seek from within" and so on. Is those words difficult to understand? (i used them for so many years i got maybe to used to its meaning)

Does other theists or believers struggle to understand example my words or meaning in RF?

Do you struggle to understand all theists generally in RF?

If you are a atheist, is it your lack of belief that make it difficult to understand theists? because you "do not believe in a God" ? So how can a theist explain it as if God do exist when they can not see God?
It's all ideological. A theist has his or her own personal image of spirituality.

It's not hard to understand a theist and his or her mindset.
 

SigurdReginson

Grēne Mann
Premium Member
The terminology used can make things difficult. If I have no understanding of Scientology, I'm not going to understand what it means to "go clear." Going clear doesn't exist in my day to day life, and neither do the "body thetans" I'm told that I have to clear. I have to believe in the concept of an "auditor" to accept that his use of the "E-Meter" works when I go in for "audits."

Does anyone not familiar with Scientology understand anything I just said? All of these words above in quotations can be explained via preexisting english words like "soul," "confesser," and "exorcism," but the inclusion of extra terminology that are used only confuse the matter more to outsiders. But these things can't be related to outside of that religion's worldview, and even then that's just one religion.

These religions use extra terms and words for many different concepts. Stop a person on the street and ask them what "Asha" is. Are they "Frithful?" Do they believe in "Hell?" If they have contact with Christians, they'll at least be able to answer one of those things, but even then it will only be within the context of the kind of Christians they have been in contact with. Baptist hell is very different from Catholic hell.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
Ok, but what if I gain a newfound awareness of a spiritual reality that contains spiritual plants but no gods or beings with minds? What if the spiritual reality I discover contains a spiritual void that I realize destroys any gods that exist or attempt to exist? What if it's full of spiritual creatures that eat human souls after we die, destroying us utterly? Who could gainsay me, or anyone else, no matter what is claimed?
I am puzzled by your seeing this as a some sort of problem. If one really were to 'spiritually experience' such 'divine revelations', what of it? They will either accept them or reject them as their new 'spiritual truth', according to their own internal criteria. As anyone would. You and I really have no say in it. Nor are we being imposed upon by it. So I don't see how this matters to us.

I understand that if they act in some way that posses a danger to others because of their revelations, then we have to be concerned. But that would be true regardless of anyone's mental, spiritual, or physical state.A threat is a threat, and must be remediated.
I'm really trying to see how a "spiritual awakening" is functionally different from a "thing I personally imagined that I found very compelling and meaningful." I just don't see the difference, nor how you could reliably show a difference.
I'm not sure why you think there ought to be a difference. If I experience the beauty of a sunset and find it "compelling and meaningful", as many would, how is that any different from experiencing a love for God in one's own heart, and finding that "compelling and meaningful". Why is an external experience of beauty any different from an internal experience of divine love?
And I don't believe in imaginary things.
Well, that's simply untrue. But that's a whole philosophical debate for another time.
 

stvdv

Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV
If you want to understand Einstein's Theory, you need to study math

If you want to understand Spirituality, you need to study Scriptures

If you want to experience, you need to put what you learned into practice

Seems simple to me
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Granted, concepts like "spiritual awakening" are very vague. I've never heard two people define "spiritual" the same way and so unless you can specifically describe what you mean then it's not a useful term for conveying ideas in a conversation. I find this vague abstraction more common in Eastern religious thought. Western philosophy and theology tend to define their terms as specifically as possible, though there are exceptions.
I think spirituality is a fairly well recognized and understood term. As much as words like love is, or hope is anyway. People generally understand what is meant by that, and for the most part mean the same things, even though some folks do have funny ideas about what love means sometimes. Same issue with spirituality.

You can't dismiss something that everyone talks about, just because some folks have some funny ideas. Most people know what spiritual generally means. If they didn't, you wouldn't have so many discussions about a topic no one knew what the hell the other person meant. :)
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
Let me turn this a little different than my last OP

This OP are made for those who struggle to understand what a theist speak about, so it is not a thread to discuss the theist, but an OP for non believers to explain them self what is needed for them to understand a theists words in RF

In the other OP i realized it may be difficult to understand what i trying to speak about. It was words that i use that seem to be difficult, like "spiritual awakening" "seek from within" and so on. Is those words difficult to understand? (i used them for so many years i got maybe to used to its meaning)

Does other theists or believers struggle to understand example my words or meaning in RF?

Do you struggle to understand all theists generally in RF?

If you are a atheist, is it your lack of belief that make it difficult to understand theists? because you "do not believe in a God" ? So how can a theist explain it as if God do exist when they can not see God?
I will just share my experience.
Trying to explain something foreign to someone, is similar to me trying to understand a Japanese teaching a class in pure Japanese, and not using gestures... at all. :D

The other thing is, based on whom you are trying to explain it to, it can be like me butting my head against solid concrete, hoping it will crack open... the concrete that is. :D

Then there is the case of trying to explain something, but not doing a very good job of it, so that the one listening is still stuck at the question they asked.
t1823.gif
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
Let me turn this a little different than my last OP

This OP are made for those who struggle to understand what a theist speak about, so it is not a thread to discuss the theist, but an OP for non believers to explain them self what is needed for them to understand a theists words in RF

In the other OP i realized it may be difficult to understand what i trying to speak about. It was words that i use that seem to be difficult, like "spiritual awakening" "seek from within" and so on. Is those words difficult to understand? (i used them for so many years i got maybe to used to its meaning)

Does other theists or believers struggle to understand example my words or meaning in RF?

Do you struggle to understand all theists generally in RF?

If you are a atheist, is it your lack of belief that make it difficult to understand theists? because you "do not believe in a God" ? So how can a theist explain it as if God do exist when they can not see God?

The problem in understandings those terms is strictly connected to them meaning pretty much anything at all.
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
I think spirituality is a fairly well recognized and understood term. As much as words like love is, or hope is anyway. People generally understand what is meant by that, and for the most part mean the same things, even though some folks do have funny ideas about what love means sometimes. Same issue with spirituality.

You can't dismiss something that everyone talks about, just because some folks have some funny ideas. Most people know what spiritual generally means. If they didn't, you wouldn't have so many discussions about a topic no one knew what the hell the other person meant. :)

Let me test this out.
 

rational experiences

Veteran Member
The human truth. A humans origin is to be human as you are not anything else.

As even God by term is a thought process that exists separately by thinking status.

Thoughts hence place God separately as a human thin king truth.

Two thoughts in theism. One thoughts are involving the one self human seeking to condition their self into a mutual human balanced relationship.

Without imposing self body mind...
keeping self separate as created in a separate status to own the condition mutual yet diverse.

Science thinking theisms do not comply to acceptance of diverse forms existing.

Ego hence says only one form supreme only to Idealise scientific quanta is to use the ideal against natural origin.

Diversity.

Why they don't want to understand mutual acceptance they want to force idealisms their self.

So they tried to infer humans spiritual spoke on behalf of god. Now try to state there is no God. Knowing science chosen is destructive.

Whereas their theism science is who claims was science.

Our argument against a human science thinker you tell lies yourself.

We always knew changes to our body in natural were conditioned to natural owning the reasoning of change.

You research the idea change to give it a science status by human egotism claiming your purpose is to undermine mutual spirituality actually.

What I learnt about human scientists.

We accepted any occurrence was due to natural conditions that changed.

You give the idea in science to be supreme by scientific concluded advice.

Our self theism is to be a better mutual spiritual existence.

Supremism was to understand to use the advice against us. So that natural would be conditioned to any form.of change was acceptable.

How you implemented a forced believe in a sacrificed life body and not argue as science explained why it was sacrificed.

So evolution was introduced in theism to explain better body states came about by evolution itself. Just so sacrifice of life would not be accepted.

As science introduced the forced acceptance.

Science wanted humans to agree that any body change was natural.

We had to spiritually argue only higher changed body conditions were considered spiritual.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I think spirituality is a fairly well recognized and understood term.

The problem many of us have is the claim that spirituality is something that can't be explained. Ask what they mean by spirituality, and they can't explain. Ask them about the spiritual wisdom they say they acquire, and you get nothing.

But what can't be explained? I can explain what I mean by spirituality in very specific terms. I can tell you about my pathway to discovery and what I learned. I can describe any experience I can remember, as can just about anybody else who is at least a little articulate.

But when you ask these people to explain, you get things like we've seen in thread already. If I want to understand spirituality, I need to study scripture. Explaining this stuff is like Japanese or butting one's head into concrete. Also common is "I know I communed with God, I just can't explain how I know that." OK, OK, nobody can explain a thing. Yet we're to believe that their having some inner experience which cannot be articulated at all.

So what are the rest of us to understand this to mean? That by reading scripture or following an ism or a guru that one gets hidden knowledge not readily available to others that just can't be put into words? Well, I rule that out from the start. If that were the case, we'd be hearing incredible insights from such people, and they should seem more content and fulfilled for the knowledge.

Let me illustrate how easy it is to describe an inner experience that one might call spiritual. If you know a little science and look up into the night sky and see a star, one can feel a sense of connectivity to that star by understanding that we are made of star stuff forged in now dead stars that had to die for us to exist. One feels a frisson run down his spine as he also experiences awe for realizing how far that drop of starlight came over so many years travelling at breakneck speed just to find my retina and announce its existence. And gratitude, gratitude that this is all possible and that one has been allowed to participate in it.

If I were like these people I'm describing, and I announced that I had had a spiritual experience last night stargazing, rather than give the description I just did if asked to, I'd have to say that it impossible to articulate any of my experience.

So, we explain it for them ourselves. No, you are not on any journey other than the one we're all on living life, accumulation experience, and trying to understand what it means, what we are, and what our relationship is to the cosmos. I can tell others what I learned. I remember tormenting a deaf girl in 5th grade along with a lot of other boys. We'd mock her deaf speech. Eventually, long after the last time I saw her, I had insights that caused me shame and remorse. Later, when trying to end my first relationship, I mangled it creating a lot of extra pain for her, and learned from the experience, never to do that again. How is this any different from all of the other things life teaches if we are alert and contemplative? This is how I learned about attachment, and the harm it can do - just from experience and observation. All of my "spiritual truths" are ideas just like that - right thinking, right behaving, etc. - what leads to happiness?

Yet I never use the phrase spiritual journey for that, and don't refer to special practices needed to acquire this knowledge. It isn't even necessary to read to learn how find happiness, much less consult arcane writings or spiritual mentors. I've concluded that if such people were on to something that I could benefit by emulating, they'd be able to explain themselves as I just have at least somewhat. But you get nothing every time. No reason to believe that they aren't having ordinary human experiences, but dressing it up in the language and mindset of the spiritual path, like something from Star Wars or The Hobbit - in search of some holy grail.

So, after asking so many people for so many years what they are thinking and feeling that they attribute to their spiritual life, and learning essentially nothing from them, I've concluded that there is nothing different or valuable there to me. Also, when somebody tells me that they just know that they have experienced God, but can't say anything to make me believe that they aren't simply interpreting mental states like the one I described stargazing, or some experience with hallucinogenics, as having received a message from "out there" that is actually completely generated by the brain "in here."

There'll be objections to such conclusions, of course, but no rebuttal - just a dismissal and often some claim to knowing things that just can't be explained at all. I suspect that the experience called hitting one's head into concrete is merely the frustration of not being believed that they have knowledge they cannot relate, and just want to be believed anyway. Yeah, trying to convince skeptics skilled in critical thinking would be like banging your head into concrete if you have nothing more to offer than the equivalent of, "I can't tell you a thing about my experience other than that it is a spiritual journey in pursuit of wisdom, just believe me."
 
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