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What Jesus said! Jesus Himself? How, What and where?

firedragon

Veteran Member
Muslims, Bahai's, Christians, Some Hindus, and even a few Jews, quote sayings of Jesus as if they are historical sayings of Jesus himself. Of course most Christians would definitely believe the New Testament has his sayings in some form or another. Some believe they are absolutely verbatim, while some believe it is the inspiration worded by a human being.

Muslims typically use the New Testament quotes to validate their own faith. Bahai's do the same thing. Christians of course as understandable would use all of it for their whole theology or more. Some Hindus who believe in a Bahai like theology where a new representative of God is the incarnation of Jesus himself would use the New Testament to derive some quotes for their theology.

I cant list all the institutions who do this so please understand.

Other than the methodology of "faith", what other historical method do you use to validate any of Jesus's attributed statements in the NT?
 

Lain

Well-Known Member
Muslims, Bahai's, Christians, Some Hindus, and even a few Jews, quote sayings of Jesus as if they are historical sayings of Jesus himself. Of course most Christians would definitely believe the New Testament has his sayings in some form or another. Some believe they are absolutely verbatim, while some believe it is the inspiration worded by a human being.

Muslims typically use the New Testament quotes to validate their own faith. Bahai's do the same thing. Christians of course as understandable would use all of it for their whole theology or more. Some Hindus who believe in a Bahai like theology where a new representative of God is the incarnation of Jesus himself would use the New Testament to derive some his Jesus's quotes for their theology.

I cant list all the institutions who do this so please understand.

Other than the methodology of "faith", what other historical method do you use to validate any of Jesus's attributed statements in the NT?

I used various means before I abandoned all these methods together. One was multiple attestation, if two independent sources which didn't know another reported a saying then I thought it was likely He said it (likely is as best as this area can get from all I read). One which I read about was if the saying was in Aramaic or how it was translated showed that it was translated from Aramaic, and "Jesusisms" of language like, "amen amen I say..." and so on. Another was that the historical Jesus was considered to have likely told parables and not allegories, so if something was allegorical in the Gospels it was likely edited on to an original saying. There is some evidence for this if you consider the Gospel of St. Mark and the Gospel of Thomas, the parables told in those differ from later writings, so I would often consider the ending punch-lines allegorizing the parable something that Jesus didn't say but were edited on to what He said. This also would mean that the speeches in the Gospel of St. John were not authentic to what He said (as it is utterly different from how He spoke otherwise). Similarly when a parable differed in it's telling I'd consider the earlier writings to be more accurate to what He actually said rather than the later ones. If something would have been considered embarrassing in the culture, or dissimilar to currents before and after (Jesus not fasting for one), I'd also consider that as likely authentic to what the historical Jesus said. Considering His social class also assisted in this.

But as I said, the best this whole area gets is "likely." They were things I was learned about that groups such as the Jesus Seminar, Context Group of scholars, and others applied (for I liked to learn how to make historical arguments myself rather than cite a book, it is a pet peeve of mine when people just cite a consensus and do not make the argument themselves, although I am probably hypocritical here at times).

The end result was a rather strange picture of a country guy who was concerned with the ethics about money (fits the social situation in the area at the time with people getting their land taken for various reasons and increasing poverty), an imminent Kingdom of God which would restore the positions of everyone, who went around healing people (not an uncommon thing but I have no idea what this would've involved or been read as in the culture, but the practice of spiritual healers is not uncommon anywhere), and didn't keep the Law very well.

That's all in my opinion and what I was using and learning about before at least. It works by collecting the sayings and actions with their context and applying those methods to each of them.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
One was multiple attestation, if two independent sources which didn't know another reported a saying then I thought it was likely He said it

That is the synoptic problem. You should read up on it.

Another was that the historical Jesus was considered to have likely told parables and not allegories

What is the method you used to come up with that?

There is some evidence for this if you consider the Gospel of St. Mark and the Gospel of Thomas, the parables told in those differ from later writings, so I would often consider the ending punch-lines allegorizing the parable something that Jesus didn't say but were edited on to what He said.

See, the Gospel of Thomas is alien to the Gospels in the NT. But I think I do understand what you say, but still what is the method you have used? It seems more like a foundation of a hypothesis with out a qualitative study. But I would definitely look forward to your method.

But as I said, the best this whole area gets is "likely." They were things I was learned about that groups such as the Jesus Seminar, Context Group of scholars, and others applied (for I liked to learn how to make historical arguments myself rather than cite a book, it is a pet peeve of mine when people just cite a consensus and do not make the argument themselves, although I am probably hypocritical here at times).

Its fine if you quote scholars.

The end result was a rather strange picture of a guy who was concerned with the ethics about money (fits the social situation in the area at the time with people getting their land taken for various reasons and increasing poverty), an imminent Kingdom of God which would restore the positions of everyone, and who went around healing people (not an uncommon thing but I have no idea what this would've involved or been read as in the culture, but the practice of spiritual healers is not uncommon anywhere).

That's all in my opinion and what I was using and learning about before at least.

I respect that.
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
Other than the methodology of "faith", what other historical method do you use to validate any of Jesus's attributed statements in the NT?

As far as I know, there is no rigorous historical method of validating the sayings of Jesus as recorded in the Bible.

For example, there are sayings attributed to Jesus that are restatements of the OT. For example Leviticus 19:18 notes loving one's neighbor as oneself which the NT has as one of the two greatest commandments spoken by Jesus. But consistency is not formal validation since the authorship of the entire Bible is itself disputed.

So my "methodology" is that of "faith" that any Prophet, Christ, Avatar of God necessarily has the same message because it comes from the same source. Different words might be used based on the tenor and needs of the time but the message in its essence must be consistent (assuming it has not been altered by lesser people).
 

PureX

Veteran Member
Muslims, Bahai's, Christians, Some Hindus, and even a few Jews, quote sayings of Jesus as if they are historical sayings of Jesus himself. Of course most Christians would definitely believe the New Testament has his sayings in some form or another. Some believe they are absolutely verbatim, while some believe it is the inspiration worded by a human being.

Muslims typically use the New Testament quotes to validate their own faith. Bahai's do the same thing. Christians of course as understandable would use all of it for their whole theology or more. Some Hindus who believe in a Bahai like theology where a new representative of God is the incarnation of Jesus himself would use the New Testament to derive some quotes for their theology.

I cant list all the institutions who do this so please understand.

Other than the methodology of "faith", what other historical method do you use to validate any of Jesus's attributed statements in the NT?
I personally don't know or care whether Jesus actually said this or that. All that matters to me is the content of the ascribed quote. If the content is valid, then I'll pretend Jesus said it. If it's not, then I'll pretend some religious translator ascribed it to him in some later written or copied text. As with all ideas, these quotes either work or they don't when applied to the actual living of a life. And that will always be the criteria of their validity.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
I personally don't know or care whether Jesus actually said this or that. All that matters to me is the content of the ascribed quote. If the content is valid, then I'll pretend Jesus said it. If it's not, then I'll pretend some religious translator ascribed it to him in some later written or copied text. As with all ideas, these quotes either work or they don't when applied to the actual living of a life. And that will always be the criteria of their validity.

PureX, pretence is a methodology. I understand. But that is not a validation of a criteria, it is only a methodology.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
PureX, pretence is a methodology. I understand. But that is not a validation of a criteria, it is only a methodology.
The validation comes from the result of putting the idea into action in real life. If the result is positive, the idea was valid.

Who said it or didn't say it isn't really of consequence. I just like to use Jesus as the place-holder for the validated ideas.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
That's not the topic, and I am not intending to discuss that. Thanks for your input. I appreciate it.
Did you know that several of the founders of the U. S. were into studying the NT to determine which quotes and events were actually from Jesus and which weren't? I guess this was a thing educated 'enlightened' men were interested in at that time. I don't recall which founders, though. Thomas Jefferson, I think, was one.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
Did you know that several of the founders of the U. S. were into studying the NT to determine which quotes and events were actually from Jesus and which weren't? I guess this was a thing educated 'enlightened' men were interested in at that time. I don't recall which founders, though. Thomas Jefferson, I think, was one.

Well. I believe that this has been a venture for almost 2000 years.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Muslims, Bahai's, Christians, Some Hindus, and even a few Jews, quote sayings of Jesus as if they are historical sayings of Jesus himself. Of course most Christians would definitely believe the New Testament has his sayings in some form or another. Some believe they are absolutely verbatim, while some believe it is the inspiration worded by a human being.

Muslims typically use the New Testament quotes to validate their own faith. Bahai's do the same thing. Christians of course as understandable would use all of it for their whole theology or more. Some Hindus who believe in a Bahai like theology where a new representative of God is the incarnation of Jesus himself would use the New Testament to derive some quotes for their theology.

I cant list all the institutions who do this so please understand.

Other than the methodology of "faith", what other historical method do you use to validate any of Jesus's attributed statements in the NT?
We don't actually know what Jesus said. The gospels are collections of oral legends that were written down decades after Jesus by people who were not eye witnesses. Some of these legends are more likely than others.
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
We don't actually know what Jesus said. The gospels are collections of oral legends that were written down decades after Jesus by people who were not eye witnesses. Some of these legends are more likely than others.

We can have faith in what they recorded reflected what Jesus Christ said.

Regards Tony
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
We don't actually know what Jesus said. The gospels are collections of oral legends that were written down decades after Jesus by people who were not eye witnesses. Some of these legends are more likely than others.

Its actually impossible to say that the gospels are collections of oral legends. I dont mean to offend you but in my opinion that's a very bad representation of the four gospels.

I am wondering if this should be delved into really.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
We can have faith in what they recorded reflected what Jesus Christ said.

Regards Tony

Well one could have faith in anything they want but taking any book and putting your faith upon it and saying "because I have faith in it it is true" is not valid. Your faith in it should stem FROM the validity of the writing itself.

I dont want to take any analogies.
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
It's about faith in God's words. I don't use historical methods at all.
 

Lain

Well-Known Member
What is the method you used to come up with that?

See, the Gospel of Thomas is alien to the Gospels in the NT. But I think I do understand what you say, but still what is the method you have used? It seems more like a foundation of a hypothesis with out a qualitative study. But I would definitely look forward to your method.

One way in which I came to the idea of what was likely for the historical Jesus to have said or done were all the techniques listed in the post, at a certain point I began to easily be able to dismiss what was unlikely, for example, discourses in certain Gnostic texts about the details of astrological signs, the nature of matter and spirit, etc. Not only were those texts estimated to be late they did not seem to reflect the other body of sayings considered to be likely true. Why would a guy who discoursed in simple language about God, money, and the imminent Kingdom, suddenly sound like a Platonist philosopher? So after using those methods and coming up with a list of things He probably did actually say I was able to sort through a large body of fluff very quickly based on what was consonant with it. Perhaps that was an unjust dismissal on my part.

For the GoT, the reason I considered it is the Gnostic material in it sticks out like a sore thumb in it, and the rest of it looks like the supposed Q scholars had and gave credence to the idea that there was a list of sayings before there was a structured Gospel. Not only that but also Papias saying "Matthew wrote the logia in Hebrew." This could just mean a sayings Gospel and not a full Gospel, so I considered it as something to look into. Then when I compared it to Mark, something considered by most to be the earliest Gospel (based on comparing it's accounts with Matthew and Luke, which both seemed to use it as a skeleton, and I thought it was more likely for a work to be expanded on than to be reduced, like we see with fanfictions and other works that expand on an earlier writing, or even other Gospels in existence expanded rather than reduced), the form of non-Gnostic sayings it had tended to agree with it, which I supposed meant it came from either Q together or they were original, since it seemed to be earliest. The other Gospels in the NT diverged from the consonant ones in Mark and Thomas, so it seemed to me that they were more likely than the other later ones.

That was my method for both of those things.
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
At the end, Mohammad (s) in his ascension in utmost limit was spoken to through a veil, that veil was himself. Mohammad (s) has the highest certainty in God and his signs and words, but if we were in the same position, we probably would doubt ourselves and say "what if I'm making up the conversation between me and God and the voice is from myself?"

The companions of Isa (a) could've accused Isa (a) of magic when they saw Musa (a) and Elijah (a) witnessing him and testifying to him. God's surest proofs and reality and his religion, and the day the Prophets and Witnesses will truly be known for who they are, is only the day of judgment. That is the day where there is no room for denial.

Ibrahim (a) when hearing about Lut's (a) people started doubting everything he experienced because he wanted God to have mercy upon them. But he returned quickly.

Nuh (a) when misunderstanding God's words was on the verge of doubt but turned back to God.

If Adam (a) wavered and doubted when he saw the highest veils and signs wanting to reach their station, so can we.

This the trial. There is no absolute proof for God and his religion like the way he will display on the day of judgment but there is sufficient proof. What we do with that is up to us.
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Well one could have faith in anything they want but taking any book and putting your faith upon it and saying "because I have faith in it it is true" is not valid. Your faith in it should stem FROM the validity of the writing itself.

I dont want to take any analogies.

I do not see that accepting what God has provided, in the way God has willed, is anything but Faith. The word itself is the standard, and the New Testament stands up to that standard.

We can spend a lot of time on pointless debate, why does it matter how the Bible was Written?

I also know that this is not what you want to discuss in this topic.

There is no way to know the exact words of Jesus, unless they find other records, as we know what Jesus offered was not recorded at the time. Yet God left us a record through a process that did record the sayings of Jesus.

So how do you expect to find what has not yet be found?

Regards Tony
 
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