What is up with vegetarians????

[Hema]

I knew that our bodies have LDL cholesterol. This is because our livers produce it. We don't need extra LDL such as from meat. I don't have to invoke God here because he is already here. He always was. Who determines what "major" religions are? I would see Hinduism as a major religion. It is probably the oldest religion on earth. Many people were forcibly converted to other religions that is why they are widespread. Now please don't say that I'm ill-speaking other religions. I'm not. No one can deny the history of colonialism. In my country long ago, Hindus had to have their children baptised as Christians before they could go to school. I see all religions as paths to God. In the pillars of Hinduism, the Vedas, it is said that God is one but is called by different names. I did not come here and say, Oh! Hinduism says so therefore it is correct! I am not minding your plate Booko, we are having a dabate on vegetarianism. I am just giving my opinion like others. On the other hand, (for crying out loud), I was speaking generally when I said that if someone tries a new vegetable they will not get sick. I'm not speaking specifically. When I was little I used to feel sick when I ate pumpkin. What I was saying is that generally, when vegetarians begin to eat meat they will get sick. I'm not saying that there will be a few in between who will not get sick. As for the Inuits who eat so much meat, what is their life span?

 

[Valjean]

I'm sure the Inuits would disagree with you. Unless you are willing to ask them to abandon there culture in favor of your own religious beliefs, not scientific beliefs, then perhaps you might want to rethink your statements.

Good point gnomon. We're not all born with the same dharma. Different creatures are destined for different lifestyles.

And to all people who wish to frame their vegetarianism within a moral framework that most likely you are coming from a cultural point of view where you have access to a wide-ranging food selection which is obtained by taking nothing more than the money from your pocket. Many, if not most, humans have not had this privilege. So spare us the moral high ground.

For many, if not most, humans, meat is an expensive luxury. Inuits, Samis, &al are unusual exceptions. A vegetarian diet is the least expensive and most convenient option for the vast majority of the world's population.

Eating meat is natural. So is eating fruits and vegetables. No matter the opinion of mythical beings.

Quite true. Carnivory was what got us through the Pleistocene and raised us from marginal, endangered biological curiosities to a viable species.
Of course, slaughtering members of neighboring, resource-competitive bands is also Natural, (as is occasionally eating them) -- but I wouldn't want to bring my own cultural values into this....

 

[lilithu]

For many, if not most, humans, meat is an expensive luxury. Inuits, Samis, &al are unusual exceptions. A vegetarian diet is the least expensive and most convenient option for the vast majority of the world's population.

Expensive how? Are we talking about personal expense or environmental expense here?

In terms of personal expense, at least in the U.S., meat is ridiculously cheap, what with the factory farming and all. In terms of both volume and nutritional value, I spend a lot more money on tofu and other high-protein products than I would if I bought meat. Granted that our sitation with the factory farms is warped beyond measure.

In terms of environmental expense, yes, for the most part animal protein is going to be more expensive than vegetable protein. But not always. In areas that are not ammenable to agriculture, raising animals that can eat indigenous vegetation that we would not be able to digest is the least environmentally destructive way to get food. As opposed to artificially creating a farmable environment by trucking in topsoil and pumping in water for hundreds of miles.

More than that, I have never bought the environmental expense argument as a compelling argument for vegetarianism. I buy it as a compelling argument for moderation - for not eating nearly as much meat as we generally do. But claiming that it's expensive does not in my mind create a moral imperative to abstain from eating meat altogether.

In many cultures (I'm thinking of the traditional Chinese culture at the moment) meat was used sparingly, as a flavoring agent and a little extra protein, but the bulk of the meal was vegetable matter. Now, many of us eat meat and simple starches, and vegetables are more of a garnish on the side.

 

[doppelganger]

1. doesn't eat red meat (will eat chicken and fish)
2. pescatarian (will eat fish, but no other meat)
3. vegetarian (will eat dairy and eggs)
4. Ovo-vegetarian (will eat eggs, but no dairy)
5. Lacto-vegatarian (will eat dairy, but no eggs)
6 Non-ovo-lacto vegetarian (no eggs, no dairy, but some animal-derivied products ok, like honey)
7 Vegan (nothing that comes from animals at all)

You forgot "Fruitarians" who won't even eat plant products if it is necessary to kill the plant to obtain them. So beans, apples and corn are okay (depending on how they are harvested), but lettuce, potatoes and peanuts wouldn't be. And some won't eat anything harvested, but only those things the plant "drops" naturally.

This category (depending on the whole "drop" thing) always seemed to me like it should have room for animal products such as eggs and milk within its ethics though.

I don't eat red meat or poultry (I do eat fish), but not for any ethical reasons. I just don't find beef, pork, lamb, chicken, turkey, etc. appetizing.

You can't argue with aesthetics! :no:

 

[gnomon]

As for the Inuits who eat so much meat, what is their life span?

I believe it is slightly less than the average Canadian and its possibly due to their diet. Certainly they could benefit from a wider selection of diet but that is not the point. The point is that there are many people who adopt a certain attitude and then apply it as a universal truth. Unfortunately, their "universal truth" falls far short of reason.

Separating the general concepts of vegetarianism and other good ideas such as the humane treatment of other animals is quickly overshadowed by people who let their passion obscure reason. Most people tend to look down on a Christian who tells us we are going to hell if we don't believe in their religion and I do the same when someone, without any evidence or argument, labels people in the same manner based on their diet.

 

[lilithu]

I remember the first time someone told me they were a vegetarian and then said they just don't eat red meat. And, silly me, I asked if she had ever killed a chicken. She was wide-eyed with shock. I said that I had, and they don't seem to die quite like plants do, and they do bleed red, and that it didn't seem much like picking vegetables to me.

Now, normally I would never have said such a thing, but I was pretty provoked at the time because she was into holier-than-thou mode because I did eat red meat. If she had just been explaining her diet, I would've let it pass, no matter what sarcastic thoughts came to mind :162:, I wouldn't have bothered to actually say them.

Well I can be a stickler for technical correctness sometimes. It's the INTP in me. So even if someone is just explaining their diets, if they call themselves vegetarian when they eat fish etc, I will most likely point out that fish are animals, but nicely.

I was once at a wedding reception where a woman at my table made a fuss because the only entree options available were steak or chicken. She went off about the lack of respect given to vegetarians, and how hard it was etc, etc. Now even tho she was being self-righteous about it, I was sympathetic because it didn't seem unreasonable for her to want something more for dinner than just bread and salad. (Tho I know vegetarians who would have just discreetly had bread and salad and I admire them greatly for it.) Anyway, she was giving the serving person a really hard time (as if it was his fault) and he's scrambling and apologetically comes back to report that the chef would cook something up for her as soon as possible but she would have to wait because he was working on the seafood entrees for different group. To which she replied, "Oh I eat seafood, just bring me one of those." I could have wrung her neck!!

I'm more annoyed at non-vegetarians calling themselves vegetarians because I often cook for hundreds of people at a time, and I have to create a menu that will cover nearly everybody. If you eat fish and I'm serving fish, why are you gonna make me create a completely different entree, when you could just eat the main one I'm serving??? Have a little consideration for the cook's time!

Yup, that was my reaction to the woman at the wedding reception.

Unfortunately, I also have to have "servers" to guard this food at the buffet, because it's happened before that if the vegans and vegetarians were near the end of the line, the only food they could eat would be all gone by the time they got to the buffet. They'd be left with a measly plate of fresh veggies and maybe some salad. I'm sorry, but you can't live on just that, and as hostess I can't let that happen to any guest of mine. :cover:

I've seen that happen too. Fortunately the people that I hang with are generally considerate and will make sure that the vegetarians amongst us get a crack at the veggie entrees before the rest of us dig in. There are so many vegetarian UUs that our church makes as much of the veggie entree as the one with meat, or we make only the veggie one. That way some of the meat-eaters may miss their meat but no one will go hungry.

 

[Hema]

Separating the general concepts of vegetarianism and other good ideas such as the humane treatment of other animals is quickly overshadowed by people who let their passion obscure reason. Most people tend to look down on a Christian who tells us we are going to hell if we don't believe in their religion and I do the same when someone, without any evidence or argument, labels people in the same manner based on their diet.

Are you trying to say that I am like that? If you are then you don't know me at all and you should not jump to conclusions. I am a Hindu and Hindus believe that all religions are paths to God just as many rivers lead to one ocean. In the Rig Veda it is said that God is one but is called by many names. Look! Religion aside, all I'm trying to say is that the poor little creatures want to live just like we do. May they all rest in peace then.

 

[lilithu]

Are you trying to say that I am like that? If you are then you don't know me at all and you should not jump to conclusions. I am a Hindu and Hindus believe that all religions are paths to God just as many rivers lead to one ocean. In the Rig Veda it is said that God is one but is called by many names.

He's saying that the way that you are talking about diet is the way that some Christians talk about religion. And it's off-putting. He wasn't making any comments about the Hindu approach to religion.

Look! Religion aside, all I'm trying to say is that the poor little creatures want to live just like we do. May they all rest in peace then.

Yeah, we all want to live and yet we all die.

 

[Hema]

He's saying that the way that you are talking about diet is the way that some Christians talk about religion. And it's off-putting. He wasn't making any comments about the Hindu approach to religion.

I am entitled to my opinions and my beliefs. It will not change because of what other people think. If you think its off-putting then you are entitled to your own opinion. That’s doesn’t mean that I cannot voice my opinions. Like someone was saying on a seperate thread, apparently it's like we can't debate if the minority's bias doesn't conform to the majority's.

Yeah, we all want to live and yet we all die.

Gasp! Really? Yeah, I sort of realized that but I don’t want anyone to kill me and eat me!