What is up with vegetarians????

[Booko]

I rolled my eyes and went to the white board and wrote "ovo-lacto-pesco-pollo-bovine-porcine vegetarian." And said, "There, now everyone's a vegetarian."

Ooh, I must remember this!

I remember the first time someone told me they were a vegetarian and then said they just don't eat red meat. And, silly me, I asked if she had ever killed a chicken. She was wide-eyed with shock. I said that I had, and they don't seem to die quite like plants do, and they do bleed red, and that it didn't seem much like picking vegetables to me.

Now, normally I would never have said such a thing, but I was pretty provoked at the time because she was into holier-than-thou mode because I did eat red meat. If she had just been explaining her diet, I would've let it pass, no matter what sarcastic thoughts came to mind :162:, I wouldn't have bothered to actually say them.

If you eat the flesh of animals (and yes that includes fish), then you're not a vegetarian. Period.

I'm more annoyed at non-vegetarians calling themselves vegetarians because I often cook for hundreds of people at a time, and I have to create a menu that will cover nearly everybody. If you eat fish and I'm serving fish, why are you gonna make me create a completely different entree, when you could just eat the main one I'm serving??? Have a little consideration for the cook's time!

Covering the vegans is very hard, but they know there's one Persian eggplant dish called "Fainting Imam" that I make when I know enough vegans or vegetarians are attending, and it will be completely safe for them. Oh, and I make (brown) rice with lentils also. (I never use chicken broth in rice I make for public consumption. Then everyone can eat it.)

Unfortunately, I also have to have "servers" to guard this food at the buffet, because it's happened before that if the vegans and vegetarians were near the end of the line, the only food they could eat would be all gone by the time they got to the buffet. They'd be left with a measly plate of fresh veggies and maybe some salad. I'm sorry, but you can't live on just that, and as hostess I can't let that happen to any guest of mine. :cover:

 

[Booko]

be that as it may, people make moral choices regarding what they eat all the time : most people in the west would refuse to eat for instance dog, cat, horse or human meat.

My guess is a lot of people in this country, if meat were not available at the supermarket, would not go out and kill their own either.

That always amazes me, but then I realize that as one of my grandfathers did a bit of butchering on the side, and we were around for that, and many people in my family hunt and fish, I am probably not normal. :areyoucra

I had one close friend who used to buy chicken already cut up, because she said it was "creepy to touch." As kindly as possible, I asked why she wouldn't just be a vegetarian then, if it bothered her so much. And darned if a month later she didn't start shifting her cooking to eliminate meat. In her case, it did her health a LOT of good.

morality and ethics is often relative to context, just as anything else.

Very true.

(I wonder how a vegetarian Jew would do a Seder?)

 

[Revasser]

1. Do you find you must supplement your diet with vitamins, etc...?

No. Paying a little attention to what one eats negates the necessity.

2. I understand the religious aspect of this, but for those that are not due to a specific religion; why?

You can see why for me earlier in the thread, but in the end it comes down to my personal (non-religious) ethics.

4. Do you find yourself more "unhealthy" than non-vegetarians? How so, how not?

Not on the surface, but I don't really pay attention to how "healthy" I am. I've got better things to do.

5. I am not trying to "lump" all together, but they are of the same family being whatever type of vegetarian they are. What kind of vegetarian are you and why do you see eggs, fish, birds, etc... as being of your diet or not of your diet?

I have (certain) dairy and eggs. Though my eggs are all from what are basically pet chickens that are treated well and allowed to roam. I don't buy battery eggs. The same goes for dairy really, I get it from local farms where I've been to and seen that the cows are well treated. I don't eat things with egg or dairy in them if I'm not acquainted with the source and their practices.

 

[Booko]

This is a great discussion. I'm not trying to put people down, but I am trying to understand why one is a vegitarian. Most of the vegitarians I know are of the "new age" vegetarianism clan. It is hip, cool, and the whole animal rights activist thing.

Comet, the more you understand the barbaric conditions animals are handled and slaughtered these days, the more you will understand the animal rights thing. It has nothing to do with "hip" and "cool" and everything to do with understanding the barbarity is just not necessary, and possibly deleterious not just to the animals, but to *us*.

If my grandfathers walked into a modern chicken barn or slaughterhouse, they would be appalled. *I* am appalled. And I'm comfortable with my omnivorous diet, but *not* with the way modern agriculture does it. If you want to know about that, start another thread somewhere in General Debates or whatever, and maybe Seyorni and I and others can fill you with more grossity than you ever wanted to hear about where your meat comes from.

Since I can afford it, I don't wish to take part in that unnecessary cruelty. For those who can't afford it, I would not dream of criticizing their choices. Everyone knows their own situation best, and they make their own choices accordingly.

 

[Booko]

LOL... But my point is, that most omnivore's justification for carnivory does not exclude all Hominid flesh, and most explanations of why they eschew human meat could be extended to cows and pigs, as well.

Are you restricting the justifications to purely physical ones?

I thought the "supernatural" one I mentioned was pretty common.

And surely, with today's population, it would be tough to exclude cannibalism on the grounds that it would endanger the species! I can't think of much of a physical reason for that taboo. Maybe transmission of diseases, but that would be about it.

Bring on the Soylent Green! :run:

 

[Booko]

With all due respect, how can animals possibly NOT have souls?

They have spirits, but not eternal souls. But then, plants and even rocks have spirits in my religion.

If you want to know how animals don't have souls, honestly you would have to take that up with God. It's far above my pay grade.

Personally, I am very miffed at the idea that there would not be cats in the next life. :149:

Plants do not have a threshold for pain although they are alive.

Actually, I question this. Plants do not have a central nervous system, and certainly do not feel pain as we and animals do, but I don't accept that they don't feel pain at all.

If animals do not have souls then one would not feel remorse when a pet dies. If they don’t have souls what is keeping them alive?

Spirits. Not eternal. Not souls, basically. We have both spirit and soul.

What is holding the body together?

OK...uh...I'm going to pass up the potential humour in launching into a lecture on the strong nuclear force and things of that nature.

If they didn’t have souls they would be incapable of emotions…like a robot. They have a lot of love.

If you had any idea how many animals I've cared for in my lifetime thus far, you would know you don't have to bother to explain this to me.

I am, in fact, quite LIVID at the moment at the local school, where through lack of consultation, they have just "decided" they want to rid themselves of their ducks and chickens, in a way I consider irresponsible and reprehensible.

You don't just decide to dispose of animals on what I can only regard as irrational fear and mere whims. If you take it upon yourself to care for animals, then you are reponsible for how you care for them and responsible for their entire lives! If you can't do that, then don't agree to care for them!

Even the animals that people eat. For example, a pig operates on the mentality of a two year old child. You know those pot bellied pigs that people have as pets?

I'm a farm girl, Hema. I've known real pigs. They are quite intelligent, moreso than any other farm animals. They prefer to be clean, and can be litter trained, and dwarf varieties can make nice cannot . Not that anyone here does that, but it's still possible. They obviously have spirits, they obviously have emotions, they are obviously capable of attachment. But that does not mean they have eternal souls either, or that they are on the same plane of creation that we are.

We have an animal nature, that is obvious. But we also have a "divine" nature that they do not.

Again, at this point it comes down to religious beliefs of the sort that cannot be "proved" in any normal sense of that word.

The only way I think we can "prove" that sort of thing is to look to the Prophets and see what they've said. But as there is disagreement as to who is actually a Prophet, and different perceptions about what those Prophets actually said, we will likely come to no consensus.

I have found that the Prophets I have read have said that animals are not the same as humans, but that is NO excuse to treat them with cruelty, and to waste life is not good. Some of the Prophets have allowed eating meat, and some have not. Given the places in which those Prophets arose, their commandments about diet made sense.

If India had been a largely omnivorous culture, it could not have supported as many people as it has. Meat as a food source always require more energy than it does to produce vegetables.

otoh, in other religions, such as Judaism and Islam, there are places where there is not much arable land, but more grazing land. In those areas, the eating of meat was allowed.

I say "allowed" because in my own religion's text, and it hasn't been around all that long, it seems that all humanity is eventually headed for a vegetarian diet. Generally speaking, I do believe it's a better diet for us. But at this time, we still have a few kinks to work out before we can get there.

P.S. - My belief is that God doesn't favour any of his children because we are all equal in his eyes. The spirit inside all of us is the same. Sometimes we do wrong things which we must be punished for but it is our choice to do right or wrong.

I gathered that was your belief. I respect it, but I cannot share it. To do so would be to ask me to deny my own religion. I won't ask you to deny yours either.

If it is all we can do, at least we can agree that vegetarians diets are generally good, and that it is a desirable goal that humans all eventually become vegetarians. I'm all for that.

 

[CaptainXeroid]

...I wasn't a vegetarian because I was an animal-rights person, I was, because I didn't like the taste of meat, it really bothered me...

I have never considered myself a vegetarian, but I often go through spells similar to what you describe. I make sure to eat peanuts to get my protein.:eat:

A few years ago, I ordered a cheese enchilada and rice at a Mexican fast food restaurant, and the guy sneered and asked if I was one of 'those vegetarians'. Unfortunately, in the heat of a lunch crunch, I did not have the time nor inclination to educate him, so I just said 'Nah.'

I have a great deal of respect for vegetarians as it does seem to take a great deal of discipline to maintain such a diet. I do have a major problem with what am certain are a vocal minority of vegans who insist on attacking people who do eat meat. I guess there are extremists in every crowd. I am also confused, however, how fish and chicken are considered by some not to be meat.
Regarding cannibalism, if you have human on the menu, it is reasonable to presume that you would have to resort to muder to fill the need. I don't want to side track this thread with a discussion of morality and/or religion, but I believe a survey would find that every 'civlized' society has disparate punishments for killing a human being compared with killing an animal.

My guess is a lot of people in this country, if meat were not available at the supermarket, would not go out and kill their own either.

/me sheepishly raises his hand in agreement with this one. If I were starving to death......maybe I could. Otherwise, I doubt I could.:no:

 

[Booko]

My guess is a lot of people in this country, if meat were not available at the supermarket, would not go out and kill their own either.

/me sheepishly raises his hand in agreement with this one. If I were starving to death......maybe I could. Otherwise, I doubt I could.:no:

Ah, so you're a normal American!

Hm, you know I've never tried to make a poll before. Now might be the time. I'd be curious to see what reactions we get from the omnivores and the ex-omnivores here. I'll have to give this a little thought.

 

[Hema]

Dear Booko brother, I was not saying that you don't feel compassion towards animals. I'm sorry if you thought I was saying that. :sorry1: I was just trying to prove that animals have souls. Look, we both agree vegetarianism rocks so that's the main thing. The soul is in fact what holds the body together because when the soul leaves the body, the body disintegrates. A soul and a spirit are the same thing. If these are not your beliefs I respect that but they are not my beliefs. I don't want you to change anything about your religious beliefs because I would not like it done to me. We are all going back to the same God eventually.

 

[lilithu]

This doesn't leave me with a lot of options right now if I leave meat out of my diet, sorry. When my holistic vegetarian doctor tells me I need to eat some meat, I'm inclined to listen to her advice.

The Dalai Lama drinks a meat broth everyday for that reason. Some people, for genetic reasons, Tibetans in particular, need to eat meat in order to stay healthy. Others don't need meat but have metabolisms that function better on more meat than carbs.

For me personally, I just don't understand why it's not wrong for a dog to eat meat but it is wrong for a human. If, as we say, humans are just part of the interdependant web of life and in this web of life animals eat other animals (and plants) then why are humans held to a different standard?

That said, I have no problem with people being vegetarian, should they so choose, and don't understand the premise of this thread where vegetarians are called to justify their choices. Why?

 

[Hema]

A human's diet is different from that of a dog's. Humans are designed with claws to rip open flesh, we are not designed with fangs to kill and we cannot eat raw meat. We are the only creatures who must use weapons to kill our prey and we are the only animals who have to cook the meat to eat it. What about prehistoric people? What did they eat before fire was discovered?

 

[Booko]

Dear Booko brother, I was not saying that you don't feel compassion towards animals. I'm sorry if you thought I was saying that. :sorry1:

Uh...actually that's sister, but no matter! Oh, besides, I didn't think you were implying I lacked compassion towards animals. I'm sorry if I left you with that impression!

I was just trying to prove that animals have souls.

I know. But here's the thing: I don't think it's possible to "prove" that, in any strict sense of the word. We can't even "prove" that humans have souls, though probably the majority of humanity believes that we do.

At most, we can explain why we believe what we believe.

Look, we both agree vegetarianism rocks so that's the main thing.

:yes: Exactly! It doesn't really make any difference to me if animals have souls or not when it comes to why vegetarianism might be the better course overall. It's part of my ancestors' beliefs that waste is immoral, especially when it comes to living beings, and especially animals. In my father's side of the family, it was tradition and belief for who knows how long that if animals were hunted in the wrong way, or wasted, their spirits would come back to harm us. This, I think, was sort of their version of karma. And I do think that the more destructive behaviours we have, the more it comes back on us.

The soul is in fact what holds the body together because when the soul leaves the body, the body disintegrates. A soul and a spirit are the same thing. If these are not your beliefs I respect that but they are not my beliefs. I don't want you to change anything about your religious beliefs because I would not like it done to me. We are all going back to the same God eventually.

This I can wholeheartedly agree with. I look forward to the going back to God eventually, for we have so much more that we can learn. That will be a wonderful thing!

 

[lilithu]

A human's diet is different from that of a dog's. Humans are designed with claws to rip open flesh, we are not designed with fangs to kill and we cannot eat raw meat. We are the only creatures who must use weapons to kill our prey and we are the only animals who have to cook the meat to eat it.

So? The "natural" argument holds no weight with me. We do a lot of other things with the use of tools and no one questions the morality of needing such tools. Our ability to design tools is as much a part of us as fangs are for a dog.

What about prehistoric people? What did they eat before fire was discovered?

I'm sure they ate what was available to them and did not sit around arguing about whether it was moral or not.

 

[Smoke]

Some people believe that animals have souls. If I believed that, I wouldn't be eating them either.

Hmm... I think cattle -- and fish, for that matter -- are as likely to have souls as the great apes, including humans. I just have a horror of eating primate meat; it's an irrational taboo, I'll grant you, considering I don't have the same horror of eating beef or pork. But I tell myself it's better not to eat your nearest kin.

 

[Hema]

Oh my God! Oh my God! I am sooo sorry Booko....sister! :sorry1: (Yeah I'm using that smilie again). I don't know why I thought you were a guy. Maybe it's because guys are stubborn. Just joking. You're not stubborn. And before all the fellas come after me, just joking to you too. This is so embarassing. The picture of the little spirit you use as your avatar didn't have a pink bow on its head. I think that threw me off. Okay, I know I'm babbling so I'm going now.

 

[Smoke]

And darned if a month later she didn't start shifting her cooking to eliminate meat. In her case, it did her health a LOT of good.

My cousin gave up meat because of her arthritis. She says it's not so much the meat as the chemicals in the meat that aggravate the arthritis, but she improved a lot.

 

[Tigress]

I hope there are a few vegetarians out there, I'd like your input. I really have never understood the rational behind this. (And I must add: FISH IS MEAT!!!!!!!!!)

I have debated this with vegetarians before and the most often heard answer I get as to why one is:

"I don't believe you should kill something to eat it" (or close to that effect)

This really makes no sence to me as plants are living things as well. So why do you eat plants? Are they lower on the totem pole than animals?

If there are any vegies out there, I'd like to hear why you are that way and what your reasons are.... it does puzzle me.

Quite simply, I am a vegetarian because I'm concerned about minimizing suffering, since eliminating it is impossible. I believe in doing what I can, when I can, and where I can. That's my rationale.

 

[d.]

And yet, surely vegetarians would have less reason to have their moral choices questioned , and yet I've seen more than one severely annoyed by some idiot omnivore telling them how silly they were and that they would be unhealthy, they were "holier than thou" etc. And they *should* find it annoying, because it's just rude behaviour to lecture someone else on the contents of their plate, especially during a public dinner.

I don't ever feel like my moral choices are "exposed," because I don't have a problem with them. And quite frankly, I don't feel the need to justify my choices to someone who's rudely interrupting my dinner.

i'm not sure if you misunderstood what i was getting at, or if you just continued to associate on that trail, but just in case - my point is, with a vegetarian in the room, everybody else automatically becomes 'meat-eaters' where they just recently was 'just ordinary people eating'.

regardless if ethics has something to do with it, it often does make people uncomfortable for whatever reason. and :

It gets old after a while.

 

[Pardus]

What unique characteristics of human flesh would withhold most ordinary omnivores from including it in their cuisine, should it be available at the local market?

It's an instinctual repulsion, many animals have a natural aversion to cannibalism.

How sure are the "we don't want to inflict pain" veges that plants experience no discomfort when being harmed?

It is like saying that animals have no souls because they are not human, you are just treating something with less respect because it is alien to you.

 

[Booko]

So? The "natural" argument holds no weight with me. We do a lot of other things with the use of tools and no one questions the morality of needing such tools. Our ability to design tools is as much a part of us as fangs are for a dog.

Uh, and actually, not everyone has to cook meat before eating it either: sashimi or steak tartare, anyone?

Hm, what prehistoric people's ate: Oh, pretty much the same thing I'd be eating on extended camping and canoeing trips years ago. When we went canoeing, we brought the canoe, a change of clothes, a thing of safe for camping soap, a fish hook and line, and a knife and maybe a small shovel, one pot, and a coffee pot (well, we did have to have *some* luxuries, though sassafras we used sometimes instead). The only food we brought was nuts and raisins. You can do just about anything with those things, though a hatchet is handy too, and prehistoric people had tools of that level.

(Never assume stone tools are "primitive" -- an obsidian knife is in many ways superior. It doesn't lose its edge like steel does.)

We ate roots, fruits, fish, and occassionally snared small game. It really ain't brain surgery, if anyone's showed you how.

If you're out in late summer or very early fall, sumac makes a nice drink, though it's very tart. Just make sure you only use the kinds with the fuzzy berries. The smooth berries are poisonous.


And now I am *totally* off topic, so I think I'll just go stir the soup!