What is up with vegetarians????

[Comet]

I hope there are a few vegetarians out there, I'd like your input. I really have never understood the rational behind this. (And I must add: FISH IS MEAT!!!!!!!!!)

I have debated this with vegetarians before and the most often heard answer I get as to why one is:

"I don't believe you should kill something to eat it" (or close to that effect)

This really makes no sence to me as plants are living things as well. So why do you eat plants? Are they lower on the totem pole than animals?

If there are any vegies out there, I'd like to hear why you are that way and what your reasons are.... it does puzzle me.

 

[darkpenguin]

you do have a very valid point, just because plants don't move or talk it doesn't mean that they don't have feelings too!

 

[Fluffy]

I hope there are a few vegetarians out there, I'd like your input. I really have never understood the rational behind this. (And I must add: FISH IS MEAT!!!!!!!!!)

Actually it is perfectly correct to restrict the definition of meat to exclude fish.

This really makes no sence to me as plants are living things as well. So why do you eat plants? Are they lower on the totem pole than animals?

A fair criticism of the response "I don't believe you should kill something to eat it" but this is easily dealt with by the retort "I don't believe you should kill an animal to eat it".

Omnivores eat meat without ever being asked to explicitly define the line they draw between humans and animals. A line, I must add, that is very much finer than that between animals and plant life.

 

[michel]

I hope there are a few vegetarians out there, I'd like your input. I really have never understood the rational behind this. (And I must add: FISH IS MEAT!!!!!!!!!)

I have debated this with vegetarians before and the most often heard answer I get as to why one is:

"I don't believe you should kill something to eat it" (or close to that effect)

This really makes no sence to me as plants are living things as well. So why do you eat plants? Are they lower on the totem pole than animals?

If there are any vegies out there, I'd like to hear why you are that way and what your reasons are.... it does puzzle me.

Heh, I used to be a vegetarian.....until what you said suddenly occurred to me - that plants are a form of life as well.

I eat (because I have to have sustenance), and I guess I give thanks to the life that was sacrificed for me.

I don't like it, but I have no other option. For me, the day Adam ate the apple, our Earth was poisoned; there is nothing more barbaric to think of than the food chain. I
look forward to the return of "The garden of Eden" (heaven), where there will be no pain, no sacrifices, and no killing.

 

[Revasser]

This really makes no sence to me as plants are living things as well. So why do you eat plants? Are they lower on the totem pole than animals?

Plants do not have brains or central nervous systems and are thus incapable of suffering.

 

[kai]

Plants do not have brains or central nervous systems and are thus incapable of suffering.

but they wilt and die! they can be poisoned burnt or drowned, that process must try and make them survive somehow by trying to get more sustenance from the ground or moisture or light, we dont know what that feels like to a plant but it must be their equivalent of of suffering,

 

[michel]

Plants do not have brains or central nervous systems and are thus incapable of suffering.

They may not have brains and a central nervous system, but grow, reproduce and die. That makes them life, in my eyes - maybe not 'life as we know it, Jim'........but all the same, life.

If plants thrive when subjected to soothing music, or people's kindly words (which some people believe), maybe their "brain" is different enough for us not to be able to perceive it.

 

[Revasser]

but they wilt and die! they can be poisoned burnt or drowned, that process must try and make them survive somehow by trying to get more sustenance from the ground or moisture or light, we dont know what that feels like to a plant but it must be their equivalent of of suffering,

My "equivalent" of photosynthesis is to ingest substances that can be broken down to glucose and used as energy by my cells. That doesn't mean the two processes are comparable. I'm not a plant, I do not photosynthesise. A plant is not an animal, it does not suffer in the animal sense.

They may not have brains and a central nervous system, but grow, reproduce and die. That makes them life, in my eyes - maybe not 'life as we know it, Jim'........but all the same, life.

If plants thrive when subjected to soothing music, or people's kindly words (which some people believe), maybe their "brain" is different enough for us not to be able to perceive it.

Bacteria grow, reproduce and die as well, but this doesn't mean that they are somehow comparable to complex organisms in the respects that mattered, at least to me, when I made my choice on this.

The point for me isn't "life." That's too broad a spectrum to be meaningful or useful for me in this subject. Michel, I tried to look at it in the exact same way as you describe here when I was first giving serious thought to the matter, but the conclusion I ultimately came to was that, for me, it felt like a rather wishy-washy new age rationale to assauge my guilt and allow me to continue doing something that violated my developing ethics.

I look at the plentiful evidence that shows what causes animal responses to stimulus is largely lacking in plants and accept that animals and plants are, in fact, very different.

Don't read too much into that, Michel. I have neither the means nor the desire to convince anyone I'm "right" here, I'm just giving my reasons. :yes:

 

[d.]

so because someone tries to avoid eating A but can't avoid eating B, it's wrong or pointless not to eat A? that's a great argument.

that said, i have no problem eating fruit or vegetables, for reasons already mentioned.

there are numerous easily available, easily read primers on vegetarian ethics available online.

 

[d.]

Omnivores eat meat without ever being asked to explicitly define the line they draw between humans and animals. A line, I must add, that is very much finer than that between animals and plant life.

:clap exactly.

 

[Hema]

My answer is sort of long but please read everything. You might find it interesting. I’m a vegetarian mainly because of my Hindu religion. Before I explain, let me agree with you that fish is meat. Fishes have life just as other animals. Some people are semi-vegetarian because they eat fish and not other meats. I assume it’s because fish is the healthiest of all meats. Very important now…I know you’re confused because vegetarians say that animals have life that’s why we don’t eat them. Then you would say so do plants. The reason behind this is that animals have a threshold for pain and suffering. If you try to kill an animal, it will run for its life. Plants do not do this. Hindus advocate vegetarianism because we believe in karma. When you bring suffering unto others, you have to pay for it in this life or the next. All life comes from God therefore God’s spirit is alive in animals also. Yes, Hindus believe in reincarnation because if God is forgiving, he will not subject us to an eternity of torture for our wrongdoings. He will give us many births to work out our negative karma. We have all come from God and will return to him one day. When all negative karma is resolved and we become spiritually conscious, we become free of the cycle of birth and death and become one with God. Animals suffer when they die, plants don’t. The poor innocent animals suffer and die just so that someone can eat and enjoy themselves for a few minutes. So think, what was Sunday lunch was life itself for an innocent animal. Some people argue that they must eat dead animals to live. This is terribly wrong. God did not design humans to eat meat. Think about this. Aren’t we the only animals who have to use weapons to kill an animal? Then the meat must be cooked before it is eaten. Think about a natural carnivore, say a tiger. A tiger is born with claws to kill an animal (unlike humans), with fangs to rip open the flesh (unlike humans) and I never saw any tigers cooking meat (unlike how humans must do). Furthermore, if a tiger sees prey walking by, it will salivate. Do human beings salivate when they see a chicken walking by? No, but maybe if they see a fresh salad they will. Give a little child a bunny rabbit and an apple. Let’s bet that the child will play with the rabbit and eat the apple. Our intestines are short (like a goat’s) whereas a carnivore’s intestines are long. When animals are killed in fear a poisonous toxin is released into their bloodstream. I wonder also if all the people who eat meat will be able to run down the animals they eat, forcibly hold them down, ignore their cries for life and then take a sharp knife and slowly cut the animal’s neck until blood comes out, then continue although the animal cries out in greater anguish. Of course not! It is against our nature. Consider the scenario I just described compared to walking up to a banana tree and casually picking a banana. I’m a vegetarian and I have never needed meat to be healthy. Fruits and vegetables keep us healthy. When I was at my previous workplace, everyone in the office caught the flu and I never did. I am twenty four but people always tell me I look like seventeen. My dad is fifty and he looks like thirty-something. I graduated with first division honours and made the Dean’s List. I’m not being boastful. I’m just trying to prove that meat is not necessary for humans. In fact, bad LDL cholesterol comes ONLY from animal and dairy products. Certain vegetarian foods have cholesterol but the good HDL type which actually lowers the bad LDL cholesterol in our bodies, e.g. Avocado. Meat has no fiber and it takes long to digest and rots in the body. Leave a piece of meat in the open to rot. See it and smell it. That’s what people put into their bodies. Rotten vegetables can never smell as awful as that. Meat has no fiber. Meat significantly increases one’s chances of getting cancer, heart disease, stroke, diabetes etc. Fruits and vegetables have antioxidants which protect the body against cancer. Regardless if one is Hindu or not, please just think about the poor animals and their suffering. Think about how God designed your body and think about your health. My final point is this. Peas and beans are first class protein. Meat is second class and vegetables are third class. Vegetarians wrongly assume that they must eat plenty peas and beans to get protein. Children need more protein. They can eat plenty peas, beans, tofu etc. Adults need only 4 oz. of protein a day. This can be obtained from a handful of nuts. The adult human body is designed to eat third class protein which comes from vegetables. Excess protein remains in the body, rots and turns to uric acid which causes kidney stones and arthritis. I hope I cleared up a lot of points for you. Whew, that was long….exhaling now.

 

[Jaymes]

So why do you eat plants?

Because I have to to survive and be healthy. I can survive without killing animals simply for food... I can't spare plants, though. At this stage of my life I find myself lacking chloroplasts, so I'll have to make do with being a heterotroph at the moment.

Are they lower on the totem pole than animals?

I'm not quite sure what you mean by that. They're incapable of feeling pain, since they lack a central nervous system. The wilting you refer to is simply from lack of water, which causes the cell structure to lose its support. They don't feel any pain from it.

I decided to be vegetarian because I can't support killing animals so that I can have something yummy. My body's perfectly capable of prospering without taking life, so I see it as the only right thing for me to do.

 

[Bishka]

You shouldn't lump all vegetarians in one group.

I was a vegetarian for 7 years *counts on fingers*, yeah, 7 years.


I wasn't a vegetarian because I was an animal-rights person, I was, because I didn't like the taste of meat, it really bothered me.

I love meat now, but for seven years everytime I smelled it, looked at it, or tasted it I felt sick to my stomach.

 

[Jaymes]

You shouldn't lump all vegetarians in one group.

Exactly. I've met people who are vegetarian for health reasons, people that are vegetarian for environmental reasons, people that are vegetarian because their body reacts badly to meat... there's a wide variety of reasons for a person to be vegetarian; animal rights and morals don't even necessarily have to come into the picture.

 

[Bishka]

animal rights and morals don't even necessarily have to come into the picture.

Yep.


I can't tell you how many times people made snide remarks when I told them I was a vegetarian, then they would make fun of me, because of that animal right stereotype. They had no clue it was because I couldn't stomach meat at the time.

 

[Booko]

Adults need only 4 oz. of protein a day.

That may be true for a perfectly healthy adult, but it doesn't work for everyone.

I'm required to eat 3 small meals per day with 3 oz. protein each, plus 2 "snacks" with 1.5 oz. protein each. If I only get 4 oz of protein a day, that'll make me a diabetic within a few years.

I'm also to limit my carb intake to 15-20g per "meal" and 7-10g per "snack." This rules out any meaningful amount of carbs, such as a whole piece of fruit or starchy veggies like peas. And actually, I'm supposed to avoid most fruit anyway. I've found that eliminating fruit altogether doesn't work well for me either, but I'm still very limited on that.

I don't tolerate the vast majority of beans very well, peas are too starchy for the diet I'm on for me to eat them as a protein source, and I must keep my nut intake down to a bare minimum. Sometimes, I cannot get near nuts at all -- not even almond milk. I'm allergic to dairy, unless it's sheep's milk cheese. I can (and do) eat tofu and other forms of soy protein, but if I eat that too often I'll be off soy for a while as well. I limit soy as the protein in meals to about 3 times a week, and I seem to do pretty well with that. I can eat eggs, but I don't do very well if I eat too many of those, so again, I eat eggs for one meal maybe 2 times a week, or I'll be off those too. Mushrooms seem to work pretty well. I can eat eggplant, but not too much of that, or I'll be off all nightshades for a while.

This doesn't leave me with a lot of options right now if I leave meat out of my diet, sorry. When my holistic vegetarian doctor tells me I need to eat some meat, I'm inclined to listen to her advice.

Americans do, as a rule, eat way too much protein (as well as way too much poor quality carbohydrates), and that results in some health problems. I mean, where can I go to a restaurant and get *just* 3 oz of meat in an entree? Well, there are some Lebanese and Persian restaurants around where I can do that, but not a lot else. And where can I go to get actual veggies in this country? Meals here are very much set up for the meat and potatoes crew. Again, I do best at Middle Eastern restaurants.

The adult human body is designed to eat third class protein which comes from vegetables.

Again, this depends on who you ask. I was very skeptical about the thesis of the book "Eating for Your Type," but when I actually cracked the thing open I discovered (surprise!) that all the things they said I could eat as type o+ were precisely all the things I actually can eat without triggering bad reactions -- mainly red meat and fruit. They have never, ever given me any problems (well, pork can, but its' a separate thing in my mind anyway).

And of the legumes I can eat, it was precisely on target: I have no problems with lentils or chickpeas. Everything else bothers me if I get too much.

Excess protein remains in the body, rots and turns to uric acid which causes kidney stones and arthritis.

There are a lot of other contributing factors to those as well. An emotional background for kidney stones is internalized anger. People who stuff their anger rather than deal with it and find a way to even eliminate it are far more likely to develop kidney stones. There are also dietary considerations, like too much intake of coffee, insufficient water intake. And then there are physical elements like riding a motorcycle or doing anything that jars the body too much (my daughter dances, and her kidneys sometimes drop and need to be put back where they belong).

One of the main contributing factors to arthritis in this country is sodas. They leach calcium from the bones and contribute to arthritis. There is pretty much no need to drink any of them. The only "bubbly" think I drink is naturally bubbly stuff like Perrier, and I stick a shot of lime juice in it. No sugar, no calories, vitimin C -- not much harmful in that!

If I could drink beer, that would be more healthy than sodas. Hm, well, beer the way Germans make it though -- not those chemically infused excuses for beer made here in the States.

I hope I cleared up a lot of points for you. Whew, that was long….exhaling now.

Yeah, it was long, but contained a lot of good info!

 

[Booko]

I can't tell you how many times people made snide remarks when I told them I was a vegetarian, then they would make fun of me, because of that animal right stereotype. They had no clue it was because I couldn't stomach meat at the time.

I'll never understand why anyone would make snide remarks about other people's diets.

I admit in real life I'll put up with just so much of it, and then I start sounding just like my Mom, "I have a wonderful idea -- howz about you mind your own plate, and I'll mind mine?"

Urgh...

 

[Bishka]

I'll never understand why anyone would make snide remarks about other people's diets.

I admit in real life I'll put up with just so much of it, and then I start sounding just like my Mom, "I have a wonderful idea -- howz about you mind your own plate, and I'll mind mine?"

Urgh...

Because they thought they knew my body and my tastes better then me. Happens all the time with how I dress, how I talk, what faith I believe in, what I read, what movies I watch.

I'm just a magnet for this stuff.

 

[Jaymes]

I'll never understand why anyone would make snide remarks about other people's diets.

I think that for some reason there's often the percieved implication that when someone says they're vegetarian, there's an unspoken "... and you should be too!" or "... and you're immoral for eating meat!" tagged on. Why, I have no idea.

 

[Booko]

Exactly. I've met people who are vegetarian for health reasons, people that are vegetarian for environmental reasons, people that are vegetarian because their body reacts badly to meat... there's a wide variety of reasons for a person to be vegetarian; animal rights and morals don't even necessarily have to come into the picture.

And then there are all the different things people call "vegetarian"!

1. doesn't eat red meat (will eat chicken and fish)
2. pescatarian (will eat fish, but no other meat)
3. vegetarian (will eat dairy and eggs)
4. Ovo-vegetarian (will eat eggs, but no dairy)
5. Lacto-vegatarian (will eat dairy, but no eggs)
6 Non-ovo-lacto vegetarian (no eggs, no dairy, but some animal-derivied products ok, like honey)
7 Vegan (nothing that comes from animals at all)

I've met all of these levels of "vegetarians," and really, if you're cooking for someone, you just have to ask the questions so you know what to do. We don't have a really well-developed terminology here yet.

I'm going to a meeting where a dinner will be served tonight. I can pretty much guarantee I won't be able to eat anything there but the Persian rice, but that's all carbs, so it would be better if I just bring my own food.

Well, frankly, it gets very *tiresome* to have to keep explaining to people over and over again why I brought my own food, even when I limit my explanation to "food allergies" it still gets tiresome. It's like being in a cast and having everyone and their 3rd cousin ask how you broke something. aargh!

So I decided to set up the beverages (which is what I offered to bring) and go eat down the road with my business partner instead. She has food allergies too, and we're in the same boat, socially speaking. When we're done eating, we'll head on to the meeting.

We'll miss out on the social part of the meeting, but at least we can eat in peace.

People who don't have odd diets really have no idea how much of a restriction it puts on social life.