What is the Soul??

[Thief]

tHE SOUL IS THE MIND BODY. THINK ABOUT WHEN YOU HAVE A VIVID DREAM AND FOR THAT MOMENT, YOUR LIFE AND WHO YOU ARE AND HOW YOU HAVE SIMILAR REACTIONS IN THAT VIVID DREAN IS IN FACT TO YOU THE ONLY REALITY THAT IS REAL AND YOU ARE EXPERIENCING. SOME PEOPLE DIE IN THEIR DREAMS WHILE OTHERS WAKE UP AND FEEL GRAT BECAUSE THEY HAD A VIVID DREAM THAT WAS A VERY REAL CONSCIOUS EXPERIENCE AS THEIR BODY LAID QUIETLY AT REST.

Ok...but your caps lock is on.

So your soul is what you perceive of yourself in your own dreams?

What then after death?
Willing you be interacting with other souls in common dreamscape?
I think so.

And dead men don't wake up.

 

[mohinishaktidevi]

Originally Posted by EMIL
tHE SOUL IS THE MIND BODY.

Listed from subtile to dense, or from last to first, the elements are broken down like this (in Hindu scripture):
earth (last)
water
fire
air
either
mind
intelligence
ego
space
time
soul
brahman (first)

Hindu scripture explains how each element expands out of the preceeding element.

Fyi this is mentioned briefly in the Gita.

PS: I notice 'karma' is not listed.
I guess that is cuz it is not an element,
its appears to me that Karma is the name for when
elements bounce off each other.

So it seems 'karma' is perceived only by subjective conscious beings.
I never heard of a rock or Volcano having a bad day.

 

[Quintessence]

Listed from subtile to dense, or from last to first, the elements are broken down like this (in Hindu scripture):
earth (last)
water
fire
air
either
mind
intelligence
ego
space
time
soul
brahman (first)

Hindu scripture explains how each element expands out of the preceeding element.

Interesting. The classical Greek understanding of the Four Elements would order them Earth-Water-Air-Fire in order of most dense to most subtle. Very curious...

I haven't much looked into how the understanding of elements differs in Eastern traditions. I gave myself a beastly enough research project with just tracing the Greek one in the West. Eastern stuff... can be even harder to get good English translations of I suspect.

(don't mind me, I have an obsession with the topic... total tangent here... >_>)

 

[mohinishaktidevi]

cool! Before I log off let me add this

The tangable 'gross' body is made of these five 'seperated aggregate elements':
earth (last)
water
fire
air
either

then, the 'subtile body' (astral???) is made of these 3 elements:
mind
intelligence
ego

I was taught that as a result of this hiarchy of elements (they fit into each other like the concentric nesting of those novelty wooden russian dolls), if someone commits suicide they lose the gross body but retain life in the subtile body until their natural born karma allotment fads out. Then that soul takes its next future birth. Same for Sudden Flash death. I guess its possible to be lose the living body before actual death occurs.

 

[John Martin]

Dear Vulpagesit,
First we need to divide realities into two. Divine and created realities. There is only one God. This God like the Sun. God is non local and non spacial embracing the whole of creation. In creation there are many types of beings: material like earth etc. plants and animals and human beings. The divine is the ground of all these beings and the way each creature experiences the divine is different. Created beings are like Moon, they have the nature of receiving. God is like Higgins Boson, which gives mass to different types of matter. The matter receives the mass from Higgins Boson. In the level of Spirituality God is consciousness and all created beings receive consciousness from God. Every being has a soul: for example we can speak of earth soul, water soul, plant soul, animal soul, and human soul. It is the same divine consciousness that is reflecting in every being, but the way each being experiences God is different according to its physical structure. We can say that soul is the reflection of the divine in the created beings and the way the divine reflects depends the type of mirror in which it reflects. This reflection is the seed of God in every creature. Only in human beings this seed fertilizes and grows until it realizes being one with the divine. It is possible that this growth may be stopped on the way. We may use another analogy. A tortoise comes out of the sea and lays eggs on the beach. When the eggs are hatched the little ones run into the sea. That is their destiny. So our soul is like little tortoise running towards the sea but this process can be stopped by vested interests and limited understanding of divine human relationships.
Our soul which is the reflection of the Divine or the seed of divine, in its process of return takes different identities and experiences God in different ways. There are three archetypal experience of Gods: God is my creator and I am a creature. God is my father or mother and I am a child of God. God and I are one.
Our journey is like a piece of ice that melts into water. In this melting process it goes through different experiences but finally it realizes that it is nothing but water. When it applies to God and creation,the whole of creation is seen as the manifestation of divine. it is like matter in physics: matter is energy and energy is matter. There are not two, only the forms are different. So also God and creation are not two but one, only the forms are different. The physical universe is also experienced as divine, as sacred. Our body is also the manifestation of the divine,sacred. Our soul is also one manifestation of the divine. Ultimately our body, our soul and God are one. it is the same energy which has taken different forms. Only in the human beings this awareness takes place. Rest of the creatures are unconsciously aware of it. Our soul is not static.It is dynamic. It grows until it experiences oneness with God. The reflection in the mirror realizes being one with its source. The mirror, the reflection and reflector are ultimately one. Jesus Christ said, The Father and I are one. I hope this can add to your many collections.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

The soul is God expressing individuality through the limited human creature.

God sleeps in the rock,
Dreams in the plant,
Stirs in the animal,
And Awakens in Man.- Al Arabi

Though we seem to be sleeping,
there is an inner wakefulness
that directs the dream, and
that will eventually startle us back
to the truth of who we are.- Jalaluddin Rumi

 

[mohinishaktidevi]

The soul is God expressing individuality through the limited human creature.

The conscious soul is a infinitely individual tiny plenary spark of God's Personal divine body expressing individuality through the limited creation of the temporal material manifestation.

The Bhagavad-gita dedicates many verses to describing the nature of the soul.
There is explains, 'We are spirit souls in the Material World'.

Material World is where 'maya' and 'samsara' occur eternally, aside from the Transcendent Spiritual Sky beyond, where 'time' does not exist. That is where individual souls engage in pastimes with the 'supreme personality of Godhead'.

The 'supreme personality of Godhead' is very specifically uniquely a singular God. Aside from introduction to that specifically singular 'supreme personality of Godhead', there are unlimited ways for the living conscious soul to past the time here in the material world.

This is what I learnt.

 

[Anatta]

The soul is a fetish.

When I was a small child, my parents worked and I spent my days in pre-school sometimes until 4 o'clock. To get through being away from home for so long, I would select a small toy, usually a plastic animal or soldier, and bring it with me to school.

When the day began to drag on I would touch the toy in my pocket, and this action would allow me to feel a sense of mental distance from my distressing and intrusive surroundings. It would enable me to experience the safety of home away from home, thus rendering the outside world less irritating for a few more moments.

The concept of soul (spirit, self, etc.) works just like my plastic animal. Clinging to it allows the observer/speaker/thinker to place a mental distance between the environment and the internal processes, protecting them from exposure and intrusion, and rendering them private and self-contained, and therefore sacred and transcendent. Although it is nothing more than a linguistic construct, people will kill others to protect their own experience of this illusion.

This apparent freedom (for what could be more free than a transcendent soul?) is actually a back door for sophisticated forms of oppression by social and economic systems like religions, nation-states, the "free market", the caste system, etc.

 

[mohinishaktidevi]

There's no business like show business I know.

Anatta (is anatta the buddhist affiliated term for "a non-soul-being?),

You have negated the existence of the soul, along with an apt avatara name.

Of course, it is your opinion, and individual points of view are what the topic of "individual souls" are all about.

As I have learnt from bonefide authentic old school gurus is that scripture has been passed down precisely because many generations of judges have reviewed the logic and continued the traditions of their mentors.

But here is the catch with individual thinkers, ouside the citation of traditional lore.

Individually we are prone to errors and easily power of lust and greed along with lethargy and worst of all, we are "short lived".

We are so short lived that only hours can be cited that show what we proclaim to learn or confess to precieve.

One third of life in sleep. First five years as a toddler. One third of life in offical occupational work plus commuting time. One 24th of each day is bathing, same for eating.

Even great Generals and Artists prepared for years, ironnically just for a few seasons of good harvest. And then back to chopping water and carrying water.

Otoh, I love your secular viewpoint, it so Kerowack beatnicky.

 

[Anatta]

Otoh, I love your secular viewpoint, it so Kerowack beatnicky.

I am not familiar with Kerouac's work or his beatnik subculture, so I don't know what he would say about this. From the little I do know, I understand that he would most likely start with a drink. Please be assured that this is never the case with me.

You have negated the existence of the soul, along with an apt avatara name.

I have negated its existence as an entity, not as a concept. It is alive and well as a concept, and doing much damage. What I find interesting is how this illusion arises and persists across time and generations.

Of course, it is your opinion, and individual points of view are what the topic of "individual souls" are all about. But here is the catch with individual thinkers, ouside the citation of traditional lore. Individually we are prone to errors and easily power of lust and greed along with lethargy and worst of all, we are "short lived".

Mmmmm... now we're getting to the creamy center. What are "individuals" and where would they come from? Points-of-view and opinions are an especially interesting part of individuals, as they appear to arise spontaneously from "within". If they did, we could certainly and accurately refer to ourselves as individual thinkers. But upon closer inspection, our thought-world is actually a system of received concepts, handed down to us directly from other individuals, surrounding culture and language, or "traditional lore". We obediently replicate the concepts in our thoughts and behavior (thus creating what we call "identities"), and before we die we pass them on, contributing to the formation of new (apparent and temporary) individuals.

So if traditional lore is the collective product of such dependently-arisen individuals thinking dependently-arisen thoughts, why should it's citation be more valid than observation and intellectual inquiry by a "short lived" individual?

As I have learnt from bonefide authentic old school gurus is that scripture has been passed down precisely because many generations of judges have reviewed the logic and continued the traditions of their mentors.

Gurus, judges, mentors, traditions... If these are all arisen from the existing genome and linguistic thought-world of which we are all subjects, what access can they have to any absolute reality? We cannot think outside of our thoughts. Even the ages-old literary device known as Gotama stresses the danger of adhering to "views", never denying that his message is also a view, and therefore harmful if treated as something absolute. So while views can be useful just like a childhood attachment to a toy which calms the mind, they do not represent things "as they are". How could they, being the product of temporary and limited individuals who can only access their senses and internal processes, and not things-as-they-are?

 

[Ben Dhyan]

So while views can be useful just like a childhood attachment to a toy which calms the mind, they do not represent things "as they are". How could they, being the product of temporary and limited individuals who can only access their senses and internal processes, and not things-as-they-are?

So true, in the same way the concept of 'soul' can be useful in a limited sense, so is the concept of 'no soul' useful only in a limited sense. Absolute reality is beyond all such relative complementary opposite conceptual attributes, in fact beyond all conceptual description and knowledge.

The truth is that truth can't ever be known through conceptual knowledge, but nevertheless this statement that truth can't be known conceptually relies on the reader's knowledge of conceptual understanding of the language used. So conceptual language can only be used as an expedient to point the way to the fact that conceptual language can't reveal the actual reality that the concepts represent!

 

[Anatta]

So true, in the same way the concept of 'soul' can be useful in a limited sense, so is the concept of 'no soul' useful only in a limited sense. Absolute reality is beyond all such relative complementary opposite conceptual attributes, in fact beyond all conceptual description and knowledge.

The truth is that truth can't ever be known through conceptual knowledge, but nevertheless this statement that truth can't be known conceptually relies on the reader's knowledge of conceptual understanding of the language used. So conceptual language can only be used as an expedient to point the way to the fact that conceptual language can't reveal the actual reality that the concepts represent!

I approve this message.

I also believe that the language and conceptual thought we use does much more than we realize to influence who we think we are, and how we view ourselves and our actions in relation to others. In fact, it is through our use of language that we are conned into thinking that we have an individual self/soul/atman, which can somehow transcend the present moment. It is easy to think you can transcend the moment if you already believe that you possess free will and independent agency - fictions which also result from our use of language.

So I can see how the concept of soul or self can be a tool within a system, just like the word "I" is a tool I use daily to refer to the physical form which experiences my consciousness, and to my consciousness and memories themselves. The trouble is that while a tool may appear to be a great idea, its use over time can incapacitate the user in subtle and unexpected ways, even leading him/her to view the resulting handicap as an advantage, and the resulting confinement as a freedom.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Yes Anatta, the 'I' self identification with form prevents one from understanding what and who one really is. As Wei Wu Wei expressed it,.."As long as there is a 'you' doing or not-doing, thinking or not-thinking, 'meditating' or 'not-meditating' you are no closer to home than the day you were born." - 'The Tenth Man'

 

[Thief]

I'm not buying it.
The very existence of each and every human displays the formation of a fresh and unique person.

We were made to become unique spirits.
Your linear existence insures it.

As I see it....
Your chemistry will fail.
Your soul might fail as well.
It depends on how well your sense of will developed.

But if you have decided upon failure.....

 

[mohinishaktidevi]

All species of Life do four groups of work,
Eating (and securing food),
Sleep (and securing lodging)
mate (and securing its preferable results)
defend (and securing security).

Meditation (old school Hindu and Zen seizen) is all about finding the core of consciuosness while bypassing the ego-thoughts and stimulus of material affairs.

All material works are self-centered driven. Some works are done by intelligent folks and some works by dumb folks.

All things material are temporary and therefore 'False' known as, 'maya' illusion.

It is the sublime and transcendent that the soul seeks.

 

[Anatta]

All species of Life do four groups of work,
Eating (and securing food),
Sleep (and securing lodging)
mate (and securing its preferable results)
defend (and securing security).

What about thinking? None of that, eh?

Meditation (old school Hindu and Zen seizen) is all about finding the core of consciuosness while bypassing the ego-thoughts and stimulus of material affairs.

The masturbatory fondling of the atman during zazen is exactly what is so baffling about Zen, because it isn't a Buddhist practice, nor is it liberating. But then it's not meant to be, and it works brilliantly as a money-maker, especially with bored middle-class Americans. What could be better than to send your students off to mentally search for something which has no basis to exist? Of course they'll never find it, but they'll soon be in fierce competition over who tries the hardest. That's when you tell them to "stop resisting" and "get over their egos", and imply they're not trying hard enough to NOT think. If that doesn't work, you can always beat them with a wake-up stick just like Rinzai used to do. Or sleep with them.

All material works are self-centered driven. Some works are done by intelligent folks and some works by dumb folks.

Here I propose a compassionate outlook, where one remembers that "dumb" folks are often confused folks whose confusion harms them worst of all. Of course, according to Zen master D.T. Suzuki, the highest expression of the Bodhisattva is the compassionate taking of life, so we can always take that enlightened path. Suzuki realized this during World War 2. The Chinese were "dumb folks", you see.

All things material are temporary and therefore 'False' known as, 'maya' illusion.

We have no direct access to material things, only to the impressions of them supplied to us by our senses and cognition. The illusion is that we think we are accessing reality, and then make bad decisions based on this error. Like Master Suzuki.

It is the sublime and transcendent that the soul seeks.

All beings seek to alleviate their suffering. How sad that most of them do this by contributing to the suffering of others. Expediency trumps everything, I suppose...

Looking at human history, it would seem that soul is a vulgar display of hateful firepower aimed at "those others".

i don't know, some wise person once said "you are the universe experiencing itself".

Sadhu! Sadhu! :bow:

 

[mohinishaktidevi]

The masturbatory fondling of the atman during zazen is exactly what is so baffling about Zen

Freudian nilhilistic iconoclastic reductionist transferences expressed in cascading behaviorial markers, is certainly the essesence of so-called 'monkey mind'. I agree with the assessment of that human condition. Good news is that is is not a syndrome. It is common to mis-concieve the redundency of the attention factor of zazen meditation.

A mantra is certainly the only tool to grasp, which leaves the baffled ego to stop its ceaseless mental stimulation. That 'zezen focus' is the same reward gained by both the 'Budo master' and 'balance beam' walker.

 

[Anatta]

Freudian

Lacanian. Lacan used to say he was a "Freudian", but Lacan liked to lie...

nihilistic

Don't be silly, I believe we exist forever, just like you... I'm just more flexible about the idea of existence and how it's accomplished.

iconoclastic

Making an omlet. Gotta break eggs. The monks have erected a corrupt edifice to support oppression, even though the Pali scriptures work to eliminate it at its root - the fiction of the transmigrating soul.

reductionist

Either you don't understand what this means, or you haven't been listening. Our physical form does not generate our mind, and never will explain much about it, no matter how many electrodes, scans, dissections... You are barking up the wrong tree.

transferences

You brought up Zen, to illustrate to me the "benefits" of thoughtlessness. But Zen is the Hindu Atman transferred onto Chinese/Japanese Buddhism. So you see, I'm not the one doing the transferring.

expressed in cascading behaviorial markers

I think you put too many words in your mouth, and now some are falling out...

is certainly the essesence of so-called 'monkey mind'

I believe the essence of the monkey-mind is the inability to maintain focused attention. The way you get distracted by the dirty words I use instead of addressing what I'm actually saying about the root of the "Self" delusion. Stop grabbing the branches, there's a tree in front of you.

It is common to mis-concieve the redundency of the attention factor of zazen meditation.

Meditation is a very useful skill, in personal life and in many professional carreers. I just doubt that it reveals inside a person any essence that is unconditioned by the circumstances, or that exists in any ultimate/absolute sense. And as this concerns Buddhism, ideas like True Self (Zen) or Clear Light (Dzogchen) completely violate the principles of dependent arising, anicca, and anatta. But to notice this, one has to think. Incidentally, these Buddhist traditions are very popular in the West. I wonder why...

A mantra is certainly the only tool to grasp, which leaves the baffled ego to stop its ceaseless mental stimulation.

This is just quietism, and it scares the crap out of me. This is what kept the Tibetan lamas in control for centuries, and what helps keep the livestock in their cubicles today. No need to actually try to diminish suffering in the world when one can comfortably escape into delusion.

 

[atanu]

The soul is a fetish.
---
The concept of soul (spirit, self, etc.) works just like my plastic animal. Clinging to it allows the observer/speaker/thinker to place a mental distance between the environment and the internal processes, -----

Either you don't understand what this means, or you haven't been listening. Our physical form does not generate our mind, and never will explain much about it, no matter how many electrodes, scans, dissections... You are barking up the wrong tree.---

1. Fetishing about no-soul is a bigger fetish since it certainly is the false self doing the negating and that will keep the idea of 'me not a self' intact. It is a mental idea but the negating of that which does the negating is absurd. Buddha's or any other teachers teachings are for whom?

2. If physical form does not generate mind, then what generates the individual mind?

 

[Sir Doom]

The soul is a fetish.

I put the important part in bold. I'm curious... do you consider fetishes to be negative? Why?

When I was a small child, my parents worked and I spent my days in pre-school sometimes until 4 o'clock. To get through being away from home for so long, I would select a small toy, usually a plastic animal or soldier, and bring it with me to school.

When the day began to drag on I would touch the toy in my pocket, and this action would allow me to feel a sense of mental distance from my distressing and intrusive surroundings. It would enable me to experience the safety of home away from home, thus rendering the outside world less irritating for a few more moments.

So... it worked or it didn't work? You seem to be framing this as a negative due to the fact that you were a child and it seems like a childish thing to do... but you are saying that you DID feel the detachment... so... what's the problem again?

The concept of soul (spirit, self, etc.) works just like my plastic animal. Clinging to it allows the observer/speaker/thinker to place a mental distance between the environment and the internal processes, protecting them from exposure and intrusion, and rendering them private and self-contained, and therefore sacred and transcendent.

Right. Again, you are describing an operation as working perfectly as designed. I can't imagine why this is being framed as a negative.

Although it is nothing more than a linguistic construct, people will kill others to protect their own experience of this illusion.

Do you find this practice to be common? That a person who holds the concept of a soul is on the verge of murder in the name of preserving that concept? I think you might be blowing things out of proportion here.

This apparent freedom (for what could be more free than a transcendent soul?)

I'm sorry, are you saying that the soul is the most free thing, but it also doesn't exist? What is actually the most free thing then?

is actually a back door for sophisticated forms of oppression by social and economic systems like religions, nation-states, the "free market", the caste system, etc.

Yes, Apple wants you to think you have a soul so that you can buy Ipods without feeling like a slave. Is that about right?