What is a moderate Muslim?

[LuisDantas]

Indeed. After all, a full 20% of the world population is Muslim. There are in fact more Muslims than Catholics in the world.

And as it turns out, Muslim communities are as a rule notable for their conduct. If anything, they are maybe too strict, too worried about proper behavior.

It is certainly not true that the average Muslim is a hair away from becoming a violent terrorist or anything of the sort. It would be pretty obvious if it were the case, if for no other reason because there are so many.

On the other hand, that is not really a reason not to try and improve dialog and mutuous understanding. Even one sole person commiting hurtful misjudgments may be too many. And there is certainly no good to come from letting hatred and misjudgements go on unchallenged.

 

[Hyperborean]

I've witnessed a Muslim classmate get beaten by five grown men (her husband, father, two brothers, and male cousin) with baseball bats, sledgehammers, and golf clubs just for not wearing a hijab. I've seen another Muslim woman who was stabbed 150 times with butcher knives because her father found some pamphlets about socialism in her room, and thought she was a "godless communist".

Given that you're some left-wing liar who claims to have witnessed non-existent atrocities, and even claims to have seen a synagogue get burned down by an angry mob (without sources to prove them), I don't think that these atrocity stories hold much water. And I find it hard to believe that you saw someone beating a fellow human being with sledgehammers and you just stood there watching.

• Accepts other faiths as valid for the people practicing them
• Accepts that the Koran is not the literal word of God
• is willing to embrace CHANGE in his religion
• Will not believe that only muslims are the true believers of the Divine and that includes removing any part of their scriptures that promotes such a view.
• Defends non-muslims from injustice based upon Islam
• Repudiates all forms of terrorism, racism, capitalism, and anti-semitism.
• Does not attempt to convert others into the Islamic faith
• Willingly enters Hindu, Buddhist, or pagan temples and mingles with the believers of those faiths, and open-minded accepts teachings and prays alongside followers of those faiths.
• Does not condemn or refuse to participate in other religious rituals because he views other religions as being "worse" than Islam
• Accepts non-muslims as first class citizens in a Muslim nation, and allows them to rise to the highest ranks of leadership in those countries.
• Allows people to leave Islam without labeling them as apostates.
• Allows a woman to dress the way she wishes, get an abortion, marry whom she wishes.
• Obey secular laws, and repudiates any Quranic law which contradicts secularism

If someone puts secularism before Islam, then he is essentially a secularist - because that is the worldview he ascribes to as being the most important.

Also, the definition of a person who leaves a religion is an apostate. You can be an apostate from Judaism, from Catholicism, from Protestantism, or from Hinduism. Saying that people like Lord George Gordon or Wafa Sultan are "not apostates" is rather like saying that shoplifters aren't really thieves.

Everything you have listed is merely the dream of the multicultists and radical left-wing propaganda. Perhaps, as a left-wing extremist, you should take your own advice, willingly enter a Catholic cathedral, and pray the rosary alongside devout Catholics. Othrewise you can take all your HOPE and CHANGE, and shove it.

 

[Darkness]

What is a moderate Muslim? Not Abu Rashid or anyone who believes homosexuals deserve the death penalty.

 

[Abu Rashid]

Right... a moderate Muslim is one who rejects half his religion in order to appease non-Muslims.

I thank God I am not one of your "moderate" Muslims.

 

[kai]

Id say it was a Muslim who has adapted tribal and cultural trends to 21st century living without compromising his/her faith

 

[Caladan]

If only the Zionist entity were an external factor it'd be great. Instead it is superimposing itself over the heart of the Muslim lands. Look, Muslims are responsible for being so divided and allowing outsiders to come in, but that doesn't in any way diminish the role played by the Zionists.

And this is where you are wrong, many of our families have lived in the middle east for thousands of years. half of the nation of Israel are Jews who have lived in this region since time immemorial, these people are not outsiders, your Zionist nightmare does not sum up with an Israeli soldier of European decent, but with millions of Jews who have been expelled from various geographical locations in the middle east by Muslims and have taken part in the creation of the nation with Germans, Russians, Poles, and other veterans of WWII and survivors from across Europe.

 

[Darkness]

Right... a moderate Muslim is one who rejects half his religion in order to appease non-Muslims.

I thank God I am not one of your "moderate" Muslims.

So, Badran has rejected half his religion, in your view. Good to know.

And this is where you are wrong, many of our families have lived in the middle east for thousands of years. half of the nation of Israel are Jews who have lived in this region since time immemorial, these people are not outsiders, your Zionist nightmare does not sum up with an Israeli soldier of European decent, but with millions of Jews who have been expelled from various geographical locations in the middle east by Muslims and have taken part in the creation of the nation with Germans, Russians, Poles, and other veterans of WWII and survivors from across Europe.

Abu Rashid is not interested in reading facts. For God's sake he thinks gays are on an unholy mission to infect the world with HIV/AIDS. Just like he is not willing to think critically when it comes to the issues of God and the Qur'an, he will never look critically at the Israeli-Palestinian situation.

 

[Abu Rashid]

And this is where you are wrong, many of our families have lived in the middle east for thousands of years. half of the nation of Israel are Jews who have lived in this region since time immemorial,

This is just outright fabrication and you know it.

The Jewish population at the turn of the 20th. century was no more than a few thousand, so unless you want to make the claim half of the current nation comes from that small amount of people, then I'd backpeddle outta that one quick smart.

If you want to continue with this nonsense, I can bring you immigration statistics from the Israeli immigration website that show the vast bulk of Jews there have come within the last 30 or so years.

 

[Caladan]

This is just outright fabrication and you know it.

I am sorry to say, that you are extremly ignorant of a whole issue you are so keen on debating. read a book, or if you are lazy just open wikipedia.

The Jewish population at the turn of the 20th. century was no more than a few thousand, so unless you want to make the claim half of the current nation comes from that small amount of people, then I'd backpeddle outta that one quick smart.

Are you saying that there were only a few thousand Jews at the beginning of the 20th century?
thats a staggering statistical ignorance right there, how do a few thousands multiply to millions after a century?

If you want to continue with this nonsense, I can bring you immigration statistics from the Israeli immigration website that show the vast bulk of Jews there have come within the last 30 or so years.

"According to Israel's Central Bureau of Statistics, in 2008, of Israel's 7.3 million people, 75.6% were Jews of any background[1]. Among them, 70.3% were Sabras (Israeli-born), mostly second- or third-generation Israelis, and the rest are olim (Jewish immigrants to Israel)"

Demographics of Israel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



now, im still waiting for you to prove your ignorant post that about half of the state of Israel is not made up of Jews who previously lived in Muslim lands.

 

[Abu Rashid]

Sabras for the past 60 odd years. You said lived there for thousands of years.

The backpeddling is now beginning?

 

[Caladan]

Sabras for the past 60 odd years. You said lived there for thousands of years.

The backpeddling is now beginning?

Ah the ignorance. either you are lying or have severe reading capabilities.
READ MY POSTS AGAIN.
I have said that about half the population of Israel is made up of 'middle eastern Jews', that is to say people who have roots in the area since the beginning of history, these Sabras are the grandchildren and children of people who were expelled from Muslim lands. TWICE you have tried to spin this FACT, I want to see you do it again, before I'm gonna make you choke on your ignorance with sources.

 

[Abu Rashid]

Waves of Jewish immigration (population saturation) of Palestine, known as Aliyah

First wave: 35,000~ (late 1800's), mostly from Russia and Eastern Europe, with a small number from Yemen.

Second wave: 40,000~ (early 1900's), again mostly from Russia.

Third wave: 40,000~ (WWI period), again mostly from Russia.

Fourth wave: 82,000~ (post WWI), mostly from Hungary & Poland.

Fifth wave: 250,000~ (WWII period), again mostly from Europe. As well as about 110,000 secretly.

Not surprisingly, by this time (ie. after more than half a million immigrants flooded their country) the Arabs (quite understandably) started to get a little upset, and began rioting. This meant the Arabs were close to becoming a minority in their own land, due to these massive waves of illegal immigration (population saturation).

Between 1948 and 1950 a further half a million Jews arrived, again mostly from Europe.

After this point, the Arab countries then began expelling Jews (since the Jews had just made about a million Arabs homeless). They consisted of about 50,000~ from Yemen, 100,000~ from Iraq and negligable numbers from other countries.

In 3 and a half years the Jewish population doubled... yet they were there for thousands of years right??? Come on, you are just arguing fairytales and you know it. The Jews in Palestine, except for a tiny minority are overwhelmingly recent immigrants, mostly from Europe and Russia.

 

[Caladan]

After the 1948 Arab-Israeli War and subsequent establishment of the state of Israel, most Mizrahi Jews (900 000) were either expelled by their Arab rulers or chose to leave and emigrated to Israel. Roughly half of Israeli Jews are of Mizrahi origin.
Anti-Jewish actions by Arab governments in the 1950s and 1960s, including the expulsion of 25,000 Mizrahi Jews from Egypt after the 1956 Suez Crisis, led to the overwhelming majority of Mizrahim leaving Arab countries. They became refugees. Most went to Israel.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mizrahi_Jews

these 900,000 Jews have given birth to roughly what are now half of Israeli Jews. Jews who have complete roots in this region from the beginning of history. from the times of the great Near Eastern empires who have formed relations with these Jews.

 

[kai]

The Jewish exodus from Arab and Muslim lands refers to the 20th century mass departure of Jews, primarily of Sephardi and Mizrahi background, from Arab and Islamic countries. The migration started in the late 19th century, but accelerated after the 1948 Arab-Israeli War. Between 800,000-1,000,000 Jews left their homes in Arab countries due to persecution and anti-Semitism.


Jewish exodus from Arab and Muslim lands - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Abu Rashid]

Firstly, you claimed they'd lived in Palestine for thousands of years, they clearly did not. How on earth Jews from Iraq, Yemen or Morocco are any more relevant here than Jews from Poland or Russia is beyond me. They are not from Palestine, and their entry into Palestine, in order to boot Palestinians out of their home is nothing but theft and tyranny.

Secondly the statistics you're trying to peddle just don't match up. The following statistics are from the Israeli government's Central Bureau of Statistics:

Between 1919 and 2006, 3,374,275 Jews have "officially" immigrated into occupied Palestine. Of those only 51,119 came from countries directly bordering Palestine (including Sudan, since it's been lumped in with Egypt), and a further 4,415 were originally born in Palestine, and were returning migrants. All up 698,657 of them came from "Middle Eastern / North African" countries, including Iran and Afghanistan.

So that means that well over 2.5 million of the immigrants into Palestine over that period have come from places other than the Middle East, most of them Europe and Russia. Are you suggesting that those 2.5 million only account for the other half of the current population??? Even if we run with your inflated figure of 900,000, then we'd have to conclude that their birth rate is exorbitantly high. There's about 6 million Jews in Palestine today, and you have concluded that 3 million of them came from about 900,000 immigrants, whilst the other 3 million came from the other 2.5 million immigrants? Yeh makes a lot of sense.

I noticed you've quietly tried to steer this away from your initial claim that most Jews have been in Palestine for thousands of years now to pretty much all Jews are recent immigrants (past century), but you're trying to make the still unworkable claim that at least half of them descend from immigrants who come from the general area, even if it's mostly from 2 or 3 countries away.

 

[Caladan]

Firstly, you claimed they'd lived in Palestine for thousands of years, they clearly did not.

Lie.
go back to my post. I have said that they have lived in this region for thousands of years, in what later in history became 'Muslim lands', and that they were expelled from different geographical locations in the region by Muslims.

How on earth Jews from Iraq, Yemen or Morocco are any more relevant here than Jews from Poland or Russia is beyond me. They are not from Palestine, and their entry into Palestine, in order to boot Palestinians out of their home is nothing but theft and tyranny.

I see a lot of complaining about the Palestinian refugees, who were a tragic result of the invasion of 7 Arab armies into Israel, these armies have not been able to eradicate Israel, and the aftermath of the war was about a million Arab refugees, now called 'Palestinian refugees', and about an equal number of Jewish refugees from Muslim lands who were persecuted and expelled by Arab goverments and Muslim mob, in international politics it seems to be some kind of a mysterious fact, hardly ever heard of. but reality is that these people were always living in the region.

Secondly the statistics you're trying to peddle just don't match up. The following statistics are from the Israeli government's Central Bureau of Statistics:

Between 1919 and 2006, 3,374,275 Jews have "officially" immigrated into occupied Palestine. Of those only 51,119 came from countries directly bordering Palestine (including Sudan, since it's been lumped in with Egypt), and a further 4,415 were originally born in Palestine, and were returning migrants. All up 698,657 of them came from "Middle Eastern / North African" countries, including Iran and Afghanistan.

Your link does not help me as it is to the main site. furthermore you have just proven what im saying, you have admitted that 700,000 Jews have arrived to Israel from other locations in the middle east, where they have always lived. our numbers may be different, but they are not that different, and they result in the same reality: that half of Israeli citizens are Jews who have always lived in the middle east.

So that means that well over 2.5 million of the immigrants into Palestine over that period have come from places other than the Middle East, most of them Europe and Russia. Are you suggesting that those 2.5 million only account for the other half of the current population???

The backpedaling begins.
let me try to educate you about Israel again. about half of the Jews in Israel are Jews with historical roots in the middle east from the beginning of history, other Jews are Jews who have roots in the Rhine area and other more exotic locations.

Even if we run with your inflated figure of 900,000,

It is not my inflated figure, I can provide plenty of other sources, further more your figure is not dramatically different, and still results in the same scenario: half of Israelis are Oriental Jews.

then we'd have to conclude that their birth rate is exorbitantly high. There's about 6 million Jews in Palestine today, and you have concluded that 3 million of them came from about 900,000 immigrants, whilst the other 3 million came from the other 2.5 million immigrants? Yeh makes a lot of sense.

Are you saying that 700,000 to 900,000 people cannot multiply into a handful of millions in some decades? think again :no:

I noticed you've quietly tried to steer this away from your initial claim that most Jews have been in Palestine for thousands of years

Same lie repeated, yet again I point you to my original post, where I have said that Jews have been expelled from different geographical locations in the region.

 

[Abu Rashid]

Lie.
go back to my post. I have said that they have lived in this region for thousands of years

Well I'll concede that one, you did say Middle East, not Palestine. But that detracts from the relevance of it anyway, since it's got nothing to do with Palestine nor with Palestinians having to be booted out of their homes for people from Morocco or Iraq or Iran. And there's no evidence they've been in those lands for thousands of years anyway. For instance those in North Africa (a good chunk) were most likely from Europe, who fled during the Reconquista.

As I pointed out with those statistics, only about 50,000~ come from countries directly bordering Palestine, and if there's any relevance in coming from the region, then it would be limited to bordering countries, not to entire Muslim/Arab world. The fact many lived in this region was because historically we treated Jews better than Europe did, which was obviously a mistake, considering the betrayal we received for such good hospitality.

and that they were expelled from different geographical locations in the region by Muslims.

After 1 million Arabs were made homeless by the Zionist takeover of Palestine, yes.

I see a lot of complaining about the Palestinian refugees, who were a tragic result of the invasion of 7 Arab armies into Israel

No, they were the inevitable result of Israel coming into existence, and at least 45% of their land needing to be given to Zionist immigrants to create Israel inside their land. You can't escape this obvious fact, no matter how much obfuscating you try to do.

Your link does not help me as it is to the main site

http://www.cbs.gov.il/shnaton58/download/st04_04.xls

furthermore you have just proven what im saying, you have admitted that 700,000 Jews have arrived to Israel from other locations in the middle east, where they have always lived.

Yeh 700,000, ie. about 20% of all immigrants, the other 80% being from Europe and Russia etc.

our numbers may be different, but they are not that different, and they result in the same reality: that half of Israeli citizens are Jews who have always lived in the middle east.

Perhaps in your mind it's a "reality" that 20% of immigrants account for 50% of the present population and the other 50% is a result of the other 80% of immigrants. To me it's just whimsical fantasy, and an obvious over-reliance on nationalist propaganda.

further more your figure is not dramatically different, and still results in the same scenario: half of Israelis are Oriental Jews.

LOL, you're really insane if you think that's gonna pass.

Are you saying that 700,000 to 900,000 people cannot multiply into a handful of millions in some decades? think again

The idea that Jews immigrating from Arab/Muslim lands (20% of all immigrants) resulted in 50% of the current Jews and the 80% who came from Europe, Russia etc. (80% of all immigrants) only resulted in the other 50% is not feasible in my estimation.

How do you explain the obvious and dramatic difference? Did they put fertility drugs in the water supply of towns with the largest Mizrahi populations? And sterility drugs in the water supply of towns with largely Ashkenazim? that's about the only possible explanation I could think plausible.

And to compound it all, between 1919 and 1948, the number of Jews from Europe/Russia was about 10 times that from the Middle East, meaning that they've been there for more generations too in much greater numbers. There's no possible way I can imagine your 50/50 figure as being plausible.

 

[Caladan]

Well I'll concede that one, you did say Middle East, not Palestine.

Wow, thanks.

But that detracts from the relevance of it anyway, since it's got nothing to do with Palestine nor with Palestinians having to be booted out of their homes for people from Morocco or Iraq or Iran. And there's no evidence they've been in those lands for thousands of years anyway. For instance those in North Africa (a good chunk) were most likely from Europe, who fled during the Reconquista.

The backpedaling continous, I see Im going to enjoy this.
lets see what I was originally responding to, you said:

If only the Zionist entity were an external factor it'd be great. Instead it is superimposing itself over the heart of the Muslim lands. Look, Muslims are responsible for being so divided and allowing outsiders to come in, but that doesn't in any way diminish the role played by the Zionists.

So, I have proved you wrong. as I have educated you that about half of the people of Israel have lived in the middle east for thousands of years. if you now want to open a new debate and claim that these people have not lived in the middle east, Im gamed, I will force feed you your ignorance with pleasure.
further more your petty mentality of expressing crocodile tears of the 'Palestinian refugees', and ignoring or rather being completely ignorant of the Jewish refugees from Muslim lands is staggering.

As I pointed out with those statistics, only about 50,000~ come from countries directly bordering Palestine, and if there's any relevance in coming from the region, then it would be limited to bordering countries, not to entire Muslim/Arab world. The fact many lived in this region was because historically we treated Jews better than Europe did, which was obviously a mistake, considering the betrayal we received for such good hospitality.

Backpedaling, backpedaling. I have said THE REGION, ie, the middle east, the near orient, the near east, choose your term, I have not said 'bordering Palestine'. the childish argument is yours, who cares if the lived in nations bordering 'Palestine', they lived in the middle east where they have been EXPELLED BY MUSLIM GOVERNMENTS AND MUSLIM MOB.

After 1 million Arabs were made homeless by the Zionist takeover of Palestine, yes.

If you want to play the vengeance game, lets go, your primitive tribal mentality of an eye for an eye is not met well in today's world.

No, they were the inevitable result of Israel coming into existence, and at least 45% of their land needing to be given to Zionist immigrants to create Israel inside their land. You can't escape this obvious fact, no matter how much obfuscating you try to do.

The state of Israel has officialy offered these Arab men and women to take part in the creation of the state, but as the story goes, the Arab nations decided to attempt to eradicate Israel, 7 Arab armies invaded the newly born state, and have failed miserably, resulting in these Arab refugees.

Yeh 700,000, ie. about 20% of all immigrants, the other 80% being from Europe and Russia etc.

Statistical nonsense. I want your source that 80% of Israei citizens are of European descent, I have provided sources that half of the citizens of Israel are of oriental descent. further more this whole 'debate' is hilarious to me, as I live in Israel and probably would know more than you will ever will about Jewish and Israeli culture and society.

Perhaps in your mind it's a "reality" that 20% of immigrants account for 50% of the present population and the other 50% is a result of the other 80% of immigrants. To me it's just whimsical fantasy, and an obvious over-reliance on nationalist propaganda.

Im still waiting for you to provide your sources that the majority of Israeli Jews are of European descent.

IM WAITING!

 

[Abu Rashid]

So, I have proved you wrong. as I have educated you that about half of the people of Israel have lived in the middle east for thousands of years.

You've yet to show how 900,000 (we'll give you your over-inflated figure) became 3 million, whilst a further 2.5 million only become 3 million (to make up the 6 million Jews there today.

And I've already provided you with the link to the CBS website spreadsheet which breaks down the country of birth of Jewish immigrants to Palestine, so don't give me this nonsense about me not giving you sources. It's your own government sources.

The state of Israel has officialy offered these Arab men and women to take part in the creation of the state

Chicken and egg argument? An as yet unformed entity supposedly makes an offer to partake in it's creation, to the people whose land it's going to usurp.

How can something as yet unformed offer anything? The state of Israel could not offer anyone anything since it did not exist to offer it. What you meant to say was the half a million or so illegal Jewish immigrants and their militias said "Either accept us taking 45% of your land, or we're going to take it by force". When the Arabs (quite rightly) refused this, they were expelled from their villages. Don't claim it never happened, your own historians like Illan Pappe and Benny Morris have documented this through Zionist documents de-classified in the 1970's.

but as the story goes, the Arab nations decided to attempt to eradicate Israel, 7 Arab armies invaded the newly born state, and have failed miserably, resulting in these Arab refugees.

Come on do you honestly buy this propaganda? It was concocted to fool the Arab masses (not the leaders, they were party to it all along, the filthy traitor scum), and for some time it did, but do you actually buy it? Jordan was the only properly armed and trained military who "fought" you, and they were led by a British intelligence officer (John Glubb). It was a facade, and anyone with an analytical mind who's studied the history well knows it.

So either you're just pushing the usual propaganda, or you've actually bought it yourself.

Statistical nonsense. I want your source that 80% of Israei citizens are of European descent

I never stated 80% of Israeli citizens are of European descent. Btw that would mean all Jews, since 20% of Israeli citizens are Arabs, right?

And I never stated 80% of Jewish citizens are of European descent. Please go back and read a little more carefully.

I have provided sources that half of the citizens of Israel are of oriental descent.

You've provided no such thing. You've just made an unfounded claim that 900,000 immigrants were from Middle Eastern countries, last time I checked the population is not 1.8 million.

You don't even seem to realise the issues here.

1) There are Jewish immigrants (about 3.4 million over the past 80 odd years).
2) There is the present Jewish population (about 6 million).

They are not the same, obviously, due to population growth.

I've shown you CBS figures which state there was about 3.4 million Jewish immigrants over the past 80 years. Obviously if only 900,000 of them were from the Middle East, the other 2.5 million were not from the Middle East (ie. about 80%). The idea that 900,000 have grown to 50% of the current 6 million Jews there, whilst the non-Middle-Eastern 80% have only grown to 50% of that 6 million is just ludicrous.

I have provided sources that half of the citizens of Israel are of oriental descent.

Where? I've seen no such sources which show that 3 million Jews today are descended from the 900,000 Middle Eastern immigrants, and that the other 3 million are descended from the 2.5 million Euro-Russian immigrants.

Im still waiting for you to provide your sources that the majority of Israeli Jews are of European descent.

IM WAITING!

It only makes sense that if 80% of immigrants are from Europe/Russia, then the majority of the current population are their progeny. Unless you have another explanation?

 

[Caladan]

You've yet to show how 900,000 (we'll give you your over-inflated figure) became 3 million, whilst a further 2.5 million only become 3 million (to make up the 6 million Jews there today.

"Mizrahi Jews are now half of the Jewish population in Israel."
Jews of the Middle East

And I've already provided you with the link to the CBS website spreadsheet which breaks down the country of birth of Jewish immigrants to Palestine, so don't give me this nonsense about me not giving you sources. It's your own government sources.

Your sources have only strengthened my points. which is that hundreds of thousands Jews from the middle east have been expelled by Muslims and are now citizens of Israel.

Chicken and egg argument? An as yet unformed entity supposedly makes an offer to partake in it's creation, to the people whose land it's going to usurp.

How can something as yet unformed offer anything? The state of Israel could not offer anyone anything since it did not exist to offer it. What you meant to say was the half a million or so illegal Jewish immigrants and their militias said "Either accept us taking 45% of your land, or we're going to take it by force". When the Arabs (quite rightly) refused this, they were expelled from their villages. Don't claim it never happened, your own historians like Illan Pappe and Benny Morris have documented this through Zionist documents de-classified in the 1970's.

By Allah, your ignorance is deeper than I have intially thought. the Arab refugees only became refugees AFTER Israel was created, if you dont know these very basics, how do you plan to make any case here, in this debate?

"Palestinian refugees or Palestine refugees are the people and their descendants, predominantly Palestinian Arabic-speakers, who fled or were expelled from their homes during and after the 1948 Palestine War, Within that part of the British Mandate of Palestine that after that war became the territory of the State of Israel, and the Palestinian territories."
Palestinian refugee - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Come on do you honestly buy this propaganda? It was concocted to fool the Arab masses (not the leaders, they were party to it all along, the filthy traitor scum), and for some time it did, but do you actually buy it? Jordan was the only properly armed and trained military who "fought" you, and they were led by a British intelligence officer (John Glubb). It was a facade, and anyone with an analytical mind who's studied the history well knows it.

I have never commented on the competence of these Arab forces and armies, and by the way some of them were competent as they have been trained and also led in battle by the British, what I have stated was the fact, that several Arab armies and forces invaded the newly born state, including Egypt, Anglo-Egyptian Sudan, Syria, Jordan, Lebanon, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, 'Holy War Army', 'Arab Liberation Army', and forces from the Muslim Brotherhood. they were defeated by holocaust survivors, WWII war heroes, and Jews from the middle east.
now we have established a fact. which is that the Arabs invaded the new born state of Israel. we can move forward.

I never stated 80% of Israeli citizens are of European descent. Btw that would mean all Jews, since 20% of Israeli citizens are Arabs, right?

Then don't waste my time and admit that you were ignorant of the fact that half of the citizens of Israel are Jews who have always lived in the region, the middle east.

You've provided no such thing. You've just made an unfounded claim that 900,000 immigrants were from Middle Eastern countries, last time I checked the population is not 1.8 million.

Here it is again:
"Mizrahi Jews are now half of the Jewish population in Israel."
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/mejews.html

You don't even seem to realise the issues here.

1) There are Jewish immigrants (about 3.4 million over the past 80 odd years).
2) There is the present Jewish population (about 6 million).

They are not the same, obviously, due to population growth.

I've shown you CBS figures which state there was about 3.4 million Jewish immigrants over the past 80 years. Obviously if only 900,000 of them were from the Middle East, the other 2.5 million were not from the Middle East (ie. about 80%). The idea that 900,000 have grown to 50% of the current 6 million Jews there, whilst the non-Middle-Eastern 80% have only grown to 50% of that 6 million is just ludicrous.

Again you fail. you seem to be completely out of touch on what we are debating. my claim is that half of the population of Israel is made up of middle eastern Jews, I am not debating immigration statistics, and again, you have failed to counter this fact, that half of the people of Israel are Jews who have always lived in the middle east.

Where? I've seen no such sources which show that 3 million Jews today are descended from the 900,000 Middle Eastern immigrants, and that the other 3 million are descended from the 2.5 million Euro-Russian immigrants.

2,112,269 Jews have immigrated through the years into Israel, again you fail to show even the most minimal mathematic and statistical logic, these 2 million people have not immigrated in one huge event, but gradually, about a million of them immigranted from the former soviet union in the last couple of decades, ergo, your amateur claim that these people have immigrated some where around 60 years ago is false. as for the 900,000 Jews who have lived in the middle east, see my sources again, although by now I would hope you dont need them to realize your errors.