What is a moderate Muslim?

[Abu Rashid]

"Mizrahi Jews are now half of the Jewish population in Israel."
Jews of the Middle East

No statistics, just a claim from a Jewish "culture" site. Quite empirical.

It simply doesn't mesh with the statistics I've already provided. All of the earliest Aliyahs were majority Europea/Russian. They accounted for most of the pre-1948 immigrants. 1948-1951 saw the first major influx of Mizrahim, but they still did not make up 70% of the population, because of the massive amount of Ashkenazim that came from WWI to WWII.

Let us break it down:

1880's - 1948: 560,000 Jews immigrated, the vast majority from Europe and Russia (source: Wikipedia:Aliyah).

In 1948 prior to the creation of Israel there were about 600,000 Jews, and the vast bulk of them were European/Russian immigrants from the above mentioned Aliyahs. Therefore about 85% of the Jewish population were Ashkenazim in 1948.

After the theft of Palestine, the Mizrahi immigration began, but it still was not as high as the Ashkenazim immigration. That is in the CBS statistics I already provided to you.

1948 - 1951 (period of mutual expulsions): 687,624 Jews immigrated, of these 278,483 were from the Middle East, the vast bulk of the rest from Europe and Russia. (Source: Israeli CBS)

Still the % of non-Middle Eastern Jews is rising, so now higher than 85%.

1952 - 1960: 297,138 Jewish Immigrants. 173,966 were from Middle Eastern countries, the rest from Europe, Russia and others. (Source: Israeli CBS)

First time the _influx_ of Middle Eastern Jews is higher, still nowhere near enough to even reduce the non-Middle Eastern % to below it's pre-1948 figure of 85%.

1961 - 1971: 427,828 Jewish immigrants. 205,375 from Middle Eastern countries, rest from Russia, Europe etc. (Source: Israeli CBS)

Ashkenazim % keeps growing.

1972 - 1979: 267,580 Jewish immigrants. 28,522 (about 10% only) from Middle Eastern countries. Rest as usual from Russia/Europe etc.

From this point in it just goes down hill for your argument.

At no point in it's short 60 year history has Israel ever had a Middle Eastern majority. So the Jewish Virtual Library seems to be "virtual" in more than just it's location, also in it's facts.

2,112,269 Jews have immigrated through the years into Israel, again you fail to show even the most minimal mathematic and statistical logic

This doesn't take into account the 560 thousand odd immigrants prior to 1948. Most of whom were Russian/European. Besides, the Israeli CBS document I've linked you to several times now states it's just over 3 million (between 1948 and 2006).

All up about 3.5 million Jews have swamped Palestine, the vast majority from Russia and Europe. The only way your preposterous claims about 50% of the population being from Middle Eastern background, is with my theory about spiking the water supplies above.

I rest my case. The facts are laid bare for all to see, from your own government's website. Debate them how you like, but you can't change the simple numbers that tell the truth.

 

[Caladan]

No statistics, just a claim from a Jewish "culture" site. Quite empirical.

Mizrahi Jews 4,000,000 (estimate), in Israel: 3,100,000 (2009).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mizrahim
"In the early 20th century, severe violence against Jews forced communities throughout the Middle Eastern region to flee once again, arriving as refugees predominantly in Israel, France, the United Kingdom, and the Americas. In Israel, Middle Eastern and North African Jews were the majority of the Jewish population for decades, with numbers as high as 70 percent of the Jewish population, until the mass Russian immigration of the 1990s. Mizrahi Jews are now half of the Jewish population in Israel."
Jews of the Middle East

It simply doesn't mesh with the statistics I've already provided. All of the earliest Aliyahs were majority Europea/Russian. They accounted for most of the pre-1948 immigrants. 1948-1951 saw the first major influx of Mizrahim, but they still did not make up 70% of the population, because of the massive amount of Ashkenazim that came from WWI to WWII.

As I have explained, your statistical logic if flawed, European Jews did not arrive into Israel in one wave, about a million of them arrived from Russia in the last couple of decades, therefor your false assumption, that European Jews should have 'outbreed' Oriental Jews is flawed from the most basic mathematical level.

Let us break it down:

1880's - 1948: 560,000 Jews immigrated, the vast majority from Europe and Russia (source: Wikipedia:Aliyah).

In 1948 prior to the creation of Israel there were about 600,000 Jews, and the vast bulk of them were European/Russian immigrants from the above mentioned Aliyahs. Therefore about 85% of the Jewish population were Ashkenazim in 1948.

After the theft of Palestine, the Mizrahi immigration began, but it still was not as high as the Ashkenazim immigration. That is in the CBS statistics I already provided to you.

1948 - 1951 (period of mutual expulsions): 687,624 Jews immigrated, of these 278,483 were from the Middle East, the vast bulk of the rest from Europe and Russia. (Source: Israeli CBS)

Still the % of non-Middle Eastern Jews is rising, so now higher than 85%.

1952 - 1960: 297,138 Jewish Immigrants. 173,966 were from Middle Eastern countries, the rest from Europe, Russia and others. (Source: Israeli CBS)

First time the _influx_ of Middle Eastern Jews is higher, still nowhere near enough to even reduce the non-Middle Eastern % to below it's pre-1948 figure of 85%.

1961 - 1971: 427,828 Jewish immigrants. 205,375 from Middle Eastern countries, rest from Russia, Europe etc. (Source: Israeli CBS)

Ashkenazim % keeps growing.

1972 - 1979: 267,580 Jewish immigrants. 28,522 (about 10% only) from Middle Eastern countries. Rest as usual from Russia/Europe etc.

From this point in it just goes down hill for your argument.

Make a better order of your statistics, so far you have claimed about 850,000 Jews arrriving from Europe, and about 700,000 from middle easten nations.
Your numbers support my case. so either you make a better order of your numbers or start coming to terms with the fact that about half of the population of Israel is of Jews who have always lived in the middle east.

At no point in it's short 60 year history has Israel ever had a Middle Eastern majority. So the Jewish Virtual Library seems to be "virtual" in more than just it's location, also in it's facts.

One, I have never claimed it had a majority, I have claimed that half the population always lived in the middle east, secondly if you examine the new sources I have provided, than yes, until the immigration from the former soviet union, Jews from the middle east WERE a majority in Israel. the fact that you have a problem with the Jewish virtual library and wikipedia is your porblem.

This doesn't take into account the 560 thousand odd immigrants prior to 1948. Most of whom were Russian/European. Besides, the Israeli CBS document I've linked you to several times now states it's just over 3 million (between 1948 and 2006).

Actually it does, read the statistics: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aliyah#Statistics

 

[Abu Rashid]

As I have explained, your statistical logic if flawed, European Jews did not arrive into Israel in one wave

Nowhere did I state they did. In fact I've provided clear sources and statements that say they've come constantly in waves from the 1880's up until today. That's the point, they've continually come, and in much large numbers than Middle Eastern Jews (except for the 1952-1961 period), which can only lead to one possible conclusion, they are a much larger % than Middle Eastern Jews.

Please re-read my post, and examine the spreadsheet from the CBS site, it's all there in plain figures, country by country.

Make a better order of your statistics, so far you have claimed about 850,000 Jews arrriving from Europe

It seems you can't count.

In the quote you just made of me, you quoted me stating over 1.5 million non-Middle-Eastern Jews:

560,000
409,141
123,172
222,453
239,058 +
---------
1,553,824

And that is because I stopped at 1979, which is prior to the most massive Euro-Russian waves (as you yourself already mentioned).

If you like I'd be glad to summarise the CBS figures for you, to give exact figures (from your own government). But it just gets worse for you, so I don't know why you insist on pushing this.

One, I have never claimed it had a majority

Didn't read the Jewish Virtual Library site properly? Because it does, and you presented it as your source.

"In Israel, Middle Eastern and North African Jews were the majority of the Jewish population for decades, with numbers as high as 70 percent of the Jewish population" (Jewish Virtual Library article you referenced as your source)

Actually it does, read the statistics: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aliyah#Statistics

But your own government provides that spreadsheet which says just over 3 million for 1948-2006, so how can your 2 million estimate be taking into account the pre-1948 immigration, when it's about 1 million less than your government's records without pre-1948???

Honestly Caladan, you're not making a lot of sense here mate.

 

[Caladan]

Nowhere did I state they did. In fact I've provided clear sources and statements that say they've come constantly in waves from the 1880's up until today. That's the point, they've continually come, and in much large numbers than Middle Eastern Jews (except for the 1952-1961 period), which can only lead to one possible conclusion, they are a much larger % than Middle Eastern Jews.

Please re-read my post, and examine the spreadsheet from the CBS site, it's all there in plain figures, country by country.

Your Sources, say that close to a million Jews have arrived from the Middle East and less than 2 million Jews have arrived from Europe. from these 1,800,000 Jews from Europe about a million arrived only in the last decades, after Oriental Jews have been a majority in Israel. why didnt you tell me your sources back up my arguments?

Didn't read the Jewish Virtual Library site properly? Because it does, and you presented it as your source.

"In Israel, Middle Eastern and North African Jews were the majority of the Jewish population for decades, with numbers as high as 70 percent of the Jewish population" (Jewish Virtual Library article you referenced as your source)

Didnt read my post? I have exactly said that this is what the Jewish Virtual Library has said.

 

[kai]

heres an interesting document;

Palestine: Report on Immigration, Land Settlement and Development - UK Government report - Non-UN document (see attached also as PDF file at the end of the doc) (1 October 1930)

 

[emiliano]

There is good article in here that I like to ask for opinions on it by the thread’s participants.
The piece is by Muqtedar Khan, Ph.D.
Director of International Studies, Adrian College, MI
Association of Muslim Social Scientists
Center for the Study of Islam and Democracy.
You’ll find it here: Who are the "moderate Muslims", asks Muqtedar Khan, Ph.D.