What is a moderate Muslim?

[emiliano]

What is a moderate Muslim?
Here in Australia we hear that no all of then are fanatical and bent on convert or kill, that their good religion has been taken away from them and transform, what are they doing to reclaimed?

 

[Abu Rashid]

I think you're misidentifying the reasons why some Muslims are violent.

Usually it is those whose country is under occupation or being bombed or is under a sanctions regime.

I think it has a lot more to do with their socio-political situation than it does to do with them being extremist or moderate.

 

[Rainbow Mage]

I agree with Abu Rashid. Basically these people come from an oppressive society where a political party has hijacked the religion for political control

 

[Abu Rashid]

That's not what I said at all, so you're not agreeing with me.

My point was Muslim resistance movements are not so much defined by their extreme or moderate religious stance, but by the political situation they find themselves in. al-Qaedah grew in Afghanistan under a brutal invasion, and it's no surprise they use violence in their methods, not so much because they're extreme in their religious views, but because they've been formed in extreme circumstances.

 

[Rainbow Mage]

Abu Rashid you know that's basically horse radish that they were forced to be extreme. I agree that they might have felt forced to a certain extent, but don't try to play like the Islamic governments of those countries are innocent. They are corrupt politicians who hijacked a religion for their own purpose, and you know fully well that Islam teaches the only one who can rule rightly by Islamic law is a Caliph.

 

[xkatz]

A moderate Muslims is literally a Muslim whom is religiously moderate.

I think as to why there are extremist groups like Al Qaeda around, Fareed Zakaria has good insight into this.

Zakaria argued that Islamic extremism had its roots in the stagnation and dysfunctions of the Arab world. Decades of failure under tyrannical regimes, all claiming to be Western-style secular modernizers, had produced an opposition that was religious, violent, and increasingly globalized. Since the mosque was a place where people could gather and Islam an institution that was outside the reach of censorship, they both provided a context for the growth of the political opposition.

 

[Abu Rashid]

Abu Rashid you know that's basically horse radish that they were forced to be extreme

It's not a case of being forced to, it's a case of that's the political environment they are in.

When you grow up under brutal military occupation, chances are some of you will turn out to be militant, because that's the best way to survive. This is just a simple fact of human nature.

but don't try to play like the Islamic governments of those countries are innocent.

I am trying to play like that? I find the governments in the Muslim world to be despicable, and so do most Muslims. In fact this is precisely one of the points of contention of many Islamist militant groups is that the U.S back these oppressive governments (most of whom couldn't give a stuff about Islam btw). The U.S government and intelligence agencies have admitted since the 1950's that their funding/backing of the oppressive Middle Eastern regimes was causing a lot of hatred for them in the Muslim world.

They are corrupt politicians who hijacked a religion for their own purpose

This statement indicates you know little about the Muslim world. Most politicians in the Muslim world couldn't give two hoots about Islam, nor even about hijacking it for political purposes. Most of them are in power due to brute force, and have little need to win popular opinion.

and you know fully well that Islam teaches the only one who can rule rightly by Islamic law is a Caliph.

Yes. And? I can't see how that's relevant? In fact it detracts from your other points, since it signals those leaders are all invalid by Islamic law.

 

[Rainbow Mage]

Therefore, moderate Muslims aren't deviating from Islam, but actually being true to it by recognizing that the extremists are the product of a political environment created by unfit, unrightful rulers under the banner of Islam.

 

[Abu Rashid]

xkatz,

There is some truth to that analysis, but it's not the complete picture. It completely neglects one of the clearly obvious points of contention for all the Islamic militant movements, and that is the existence of colonialist entities in the Muslim world. Israel is quite clearly the elephant in the room, along with the various invasions, bombings, occupations of the Muslim world that nobody wants to admit might just have possibly led people to become militarised (who would've thought??).

The idea that the West can carry on normal relations with the Muslim world, whilst they continue to arm, an occupationist state in their land, to the teeth, is just ludicrous. As is the idea that invading more Muslim countries is going to lead to less hostility. Few in the West are brave enough to admit this, for fear it might be perceived as being "soft on terrorism". Michael Scheuer (former head of the OBL tracking unit of the CIA) is one of the few that comes to mind.

 

[Abu Rashid]

unrightful rulers under the banner of Islam.

Come on, apart from Saudi Arabia and Iran, which Muslim countries claim even anything about the banner of Islam? The vast majority are so openly anti-Islamic it's not funny. They ban the hijab (Turkey & Tunisia), they ban any political party based on Islam (Turkey, Syria, Egypt, Jordan).

Therefore, moderate Muslims aren't deviating from Islam, but actually being true to it by recognizing that the extremists are the product of a political environment created by unfit,

The problem is in framing it in terms of moderate and extremist Muslims. These two classes are just wrong. Any people, Muslim or otherwise, when under attack, will usually react violently in self-defense, there's nothing extreme about it, it's just normal human nature.

I find it bizarre that people cannot fathom that when Muslims have been under continual assault for decades, they might finally respond and lash out at the aggressors. Yet when America murders tens of thousands of Muslims in response to 9/11, all of a sudden revenge and defense is fine and normal and completely understandable.

People are not thinking, they're just regurgitating what they've been spoon fed.

 

[Rainbow Mage]

I agree that Israel is a big problem, but it's also something to late to be taken back. Myself personally, I'm not a Zionist, but I also support Israel's right to exist. I think the ways the Israeli government treats the Palestinians is inhumane and abhorrent. Also, I don't think Israel needs to continue to recieve funds and support from western nations

 

[Rainbow Mage]

What the US government did after 9/11 was wrong on all counts. I am not suggesting the west has been a good guy in this either. They attacked two third world countries without the means to defend themselves, to go after a terrorist organization that isn't even mainly stationed in the Middle East, but in southeast Asia. The US used 9/11 to escalate this whole deal

 

[Abu Rashid]

I agree that Israel is a big problem, but it's also something to late to be taken back. Myself personally, I'm not a Zionist, but I also support Israel's right to exist.

Whilst Israel continues to exist, there's going to continue to be a problem. You can't just plonk a new country into someone elses home, and expect them to ever accept it. They will not.

Also, I don't think Israel needs to continue to recieve funds and support from western nations

If they didn't have that support, they'd perish. That's the major problem

 

[xkatz]

xkatz,

There is some truth to that analysis, but it's not the complete picture. It completely neglects one of the clearly obvious points of contention for all the Islamic militant movements, and that is the existence of colonialist entities in the Muslim world. Israel is quite clearly the elephant in the room, along with the various invasions, bombings, occupations of the Muslim world that nobody wants to admit might just have possibly led people to become militarised (who would've thought??).

I think that another important "elephant" you are forgetting is Iran. I would say that even more so than the West, Iran is the greatest threat to social and political stability in the region. Iran has Hezbollah trying to stir up trouble in Lebanon and Israel, if the Iranians are so insistent of being anti-Imperialist, why do they use terror groups (Hezbollah)? I think one of the greatest threats to stability is Iranian-backed Shias and Arab-backed Sunnis waging war on each other, it could be devastating.

As is the idea that invading more Muslim countries is going to lead to less hostility.

That is a ridiculous notion, I agree. Although to be honest, I have heard virtually no one ever say this and/or support it.

 

[Caladan]

Whilst Israel continues to exist, there's going to continue to be a problem. You can't just plonk a new country into someone elses home, and expect them to ever accept it. They will not.

Reading the OP, I cannot avoid seeing the classical scapegoating syndrome.
Is Israel responsible for the many numerous violent conflicts through out the Muslim world which cost the lives of millions of people? is Israel responsible for the systematic persecution of homosexuals, the oppression of women, the persecution of minorities, the tyranny, the religious fanaticism, the illiteracy, the indoctrination, the superstitions?
its time to take responsibility and face social problems outside the frame of placing the blame on external factors. at some point people have to ask... 'where have WE gone wrong'?

 

[Rainbow Mage]

See and here is another difference between the liberal or moderate Muslim and the conservative or extremist. The conservatives blame Israel for all the world's problems, almost to the point of being anti-Jewish. The liberal or moderate Muslim may have an opinion akin to mine, that Israel has the right to exist, but not everything they do is right, or some may even support Israel. I've seen moderates who support Israel, due to the fact that Israel is secular, and they prefer secularism over theocracy.

 

[Abu Rashid]

xkatz,

I think that another important "elephant" you are forgetting is Iran.

Iran is a problem for The West and Israel. The West might try to bully the Arab puppets into thinking the same. Unlike the West or Israel, Iran is actually part of the region, therefore their status there is not even in question.

I would say that even more so than the West, Iran is the greatest threat to social and political stability in the region

As above, that's what the West & Israel must convince the Arabs of, doesn't make it so.

Iran has Hezbollah trying to stir up trouble in Lebanon and Israel

Hezbollah represent the Lebanese people, Muslims, Shia & Christians and Socialists even. Israel is just a foreign entity which obviously doesn't want hostile neighbours rejecting her foreign presence.

I think one of the greatest threats to stability is Iranian-backed Shias and Arab-backed Sunnis waging war on each other, it could be devastating.

I think the greatest threat is the U.S busting up countries and inciting civil wars between Sunnis and Shi'a.

 

[Shia Islam]

What is a moderate Muslim?


Here in Australia we hear that no all of then are fanatical and bent on convert or kill...

The post seems more like naming and shaming than an objective way to discuss the problem between some Muslim affiliations with the west.

I think that you did not choose the right words for your post.

but as for shia Islam, our main problem is that many people in the west, generalise when they talk about Islam.

Shia Muslims are the main victim of Islamic extremism.
Hundreds of thousands of Shia Muslims have been killed by al Qaeda and the other terrorists in Iraq and Afghanistan.

 

[Abu Rashid]

Shia Muslims are the main victim of Islamic extremism.
Hundreds of thousands of Shia Muslims have been killed by al Qaeda and the other terrorists in Iraq and Afghanistan.

The Shi'a invited the invaders and then assisted them to occupy the country. They attack Sunnah and so the Sunnah retaliate. And sometimes the U.S do black-flag operations against both of them, to get them to fight one another. Don't be a stooge by subscribing to it.

United we stand, divided we fall into an abyss of civil-war.

 

[Abu Rashid]

its time to take responsibility and face social problems outside the frame of placing the blame on external factors

If only the Zionist entity were an external factor it'd be great. Instead it is superimposing itself over the heart of the Muslim lands. Look, Muslims are responsible for being so divided and allowing outsiders to come in, but that doesn't in any way diminish the role played by the Zionists.