What do you think of Purgatory?

[Dogknox20]

Ok. That basically eliminated the whole race.

Got it.

It applies this way! The Soul must be purged, cleansed, sanctified before it can have a life in Paradise! Nothing impure can enter heaven!
Ok. That basically eliminated the whole race.
Kenny. .. ??? The scriptures tell you: Nothing impure can enter heaven!

The scriptures tell you all are sinners! I fail to understand your comment (above) Christians have always prayed for their dead!
Early Christian monuments in favor of prayer for the dead that no historian any longer denies that the practice and the belief which the practice implies were universal in the primitive Church. There was no break of continuity in this respect between Judaism and Christianity.

Kenny God lives outside of time a prayer will always reach God at the proper time, even after the prayer is said after the person has died!
The Jews prayed for their dead in the Old Testament the Christian continued this truth in the New Testament!

Marten Luther taught; "the soul is a dung heap covered over as with a white sheet; God does not see the putrid mess just the sheet"!! As If...

Kenny as if those who believe as Luther can pull a fast one on God and sneak into heaven, trick God!?

 

[URAVIP2ME]

muhammad_isa I hope all is well...
I reply: There are people who teach you cannot pray for the dead because there is only Gehenna (Hell) or Heaven (Paradise) the soul will be in one or the other! If in heaven, there is no need to pray for the soul of the dead. If in hell it would be too late to pray for the soul!
The Catholic (Christian) believes that God lives outside of time and prayers always arrive at God on time! Also... Our scriptures teach prayers for the dead are a good!
Protestant (Protestors) who reject prayers for the dead; might care for their children with love then when a child dies, they do nothing for the soul refusing to do the most important thing that they could do, that is help the soul arrive in heaven!

The soul that sins dies - Ezekiel 18:4,20.
Parents pass down their wrong leanings to their children.
The dead know nothing. Nothing but sleep ( -> Psalms 115:17: Isaiah 38:18; Ecclesiastes 9:5; John 11:11-14 )
I know of No Holy Scripture that teaches prayers for the dead are good __________________ - Romans 6:7
Gehenna and hell are two (2) different words:
Bible hell is just mankind's temporary stone-cold grave for the sleeping dead.
Even the word cemetery means: sleeping place.
Gehenna stands for: destruction.
Everything thrown (Not buried) in Gehenna was: destroyed.
Wicked people are destroyed according to the Bible at Psalms 37:38; Psalms 92:7; Psalms 104:35
Gehenna was a garbage pit, Jesus did Not go to Gehenna's garbage pit the day he died but to the grave/hell - Acts of the Apostles 2:27

 

[muhammad_isa]

The dead know nothing. Nothing but sleep..

Why do you talk about things that you don't know?
Do you speak for God?

I think we will all find out one day.

Cherry-picking verses in order to satisfy your creed does not change truth .. it only serves to deceive..
It is better to remain silent, if one cannot explain the verses that reports Jesus teaching about paradise and hell.
There are verses where Jesus is reported to have said that our souls are immortal.

Why do you ignore that which you dislike, and interpret others to mean what you DO like?
i.e. a God who does not see anybody suffer

If God does not let people suffer in hell, then why does he let so many people suffer now?
Is that fair, when they have done relatively little wrong?
God is the fairest of all judges.
Humans are not. They make up what seems good to them.

 

[1213]

The majority of mankind lived and died without knowing about Jesus.
..

I believe those who have not heard of Jesus go by these:

For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without the law. As many as have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. For it isn't the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law will be justified (for when Gentiles who don't have the law do by nature the things of the law, these, not having the law, are a law to themselves, in that they show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience testifying with them, and their thoughts among themselves accusing or else excusing them) in the day when God will judge the secrets of men, according to my gospel, by Jesus Christ.
Romans 2:12-16

Most assuredly, I tell you, the hour comes, and now is, when the dead will hear the Son of God’s voice; and those who hear will live.
Joh. 5:25

 

[Hermit Philosopher]

This question is addressed to Christians, particularly.
I am curious about the other people's stance, though.
So anyone can express their opinion on what Purgatory is.

Purgatory - Wikipedia

You can express your global vision on soteriology, as well. I would appreciate it, if you did.
Thank you in advance.

Purgatory is a state in the spiritual process of being, that we pass through upon leaving our physical one, on our way back to source.

It is the point at which we experience all that we contributed to in the lives of others, as if they were our own, first-hand experiences and emotions.

Purgatory is the means by which we judge the results of having been who we were in our worldly state. It is where we are either pardoned by repentance*, cleansed by understanding* and freed from our worldly selves to return to source (heaven) or where we get stuck in the pain that we contributed to in our state of worldliness (hell).

*) Purgatorial “repentances” and “understandings” - unlike many mundane versions - are torturously profound and transformative.


Humbly,
Hermit

 

[muhammad_isa]

It is where we are either pardoned by repentance*, cleansed by understanding* and freed from our worldly selves to return to source (heaven) or where we get stuck in the pain that we contributed to in our state of worldliness (hell).

*) Purgatorial “repentances” and “understandings” - unlike many mundane versions - are torturously profound and transformative.


Humbly,
Hermit

Mmm

 

[Hermit Philosopher]

Mmm

But you live yet, @muhammad_isa !
Which is beautiful, as it means that if you feel that you have wronged others in painful ways, you can stop now and are still in a position to change and to contribute to much good and harmony in others instead.
For as long as we live, we can all do this still.

Forgive me if I misunderstood your emoji by the way.


Humbly,
Hermit

 

[muhammad_isa]

But you live yet, @muhammad_isa !
Which is beautiful, as it means that if you feel that you have wronged others in painful ways, you can stop now and are still in a position to change and to contribute to much good and harmony in others instead.
For as long as we live, we can all do this still.

Mmm .. I hope you are right .. I feel weak .. and satan is "putting the boot in".
I can only hope that God will forgive me, and give me strength.

 

[Dogknox20]

The soul that sins dies - Ezekiel 18:4,20.
Parents pass down their wrong leanings to their children.
The dead know nothing. Nothing but sleep ( -> Psalms 115:17: Isaiah 38:18; Ecclesiastes 9:5; John 11:11-14 )
I know of No Holy Scripture that teaches prayers for the dead are good __________________ - Romans 6:7
Gehenna and hell are two (2) different words:
Bible hell is just mankind's temporary stone-cold grave for the sleeping dead.
Even the word cemetery means: sleeping place.
Gehenna stands for: destruction.
Everything thrown (Not buried) in Gehenna was: destroyed.
Wicked people are destroyed according to the Bible at Psalms 37:38; Psalms 92:7; Psalms 104:35
Gehenna was a garbage pit, Jesus did Not go to Gehenna's garbage pit the day he died but to the grave/hell - Acts of the Apostles 2:27

Yes.. The soul that sins dies - Ezekiel 18:4,20.
URAVIP2M there is sin that does NOT kill the soul!
1 John 5:16
If you see any brother or sister commit a sin that does not lead to death, you should pray, and God will give them life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that you should pray about that.

URAVIP2M If a person dies with a sin that does not kill the soul... God will give them life - praying for them they will be able to enter heaven They will be "Sanctified"!

Luke 16 The Rich Man & Lazarus
The Rich man is a Child of Abraham; Abraham calls him "Son"!
The Rich Man addresses Abraham as "Father"!
The Rich Man has Compassion he wants to help his brothers left on earth; a person in Gehenna (Satan's Home) would be full of hate, Satan would be his father not Abraham!
The Rich man was being Sactyfed so he could enter heaven!
The Rich man was dead... He knew everything! Don't....
Your words... The dead know nothing. Nothing but sleep ( -> Psalms 115:17: Isaiah 38:18; Ecclesiastes 9:5; John 11:11-14 )
Don't forget it was Jesus telling us this story of the Rich Man.. Jesus cannot lie or mislead!

Galatians 3:29
If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Acts 13:26
“Fellow children of Abraham and you God-fearing Gentiles, it is to us that this message of salvation has been sent.

URAVIP2M The Rich Man was a Child of Abraham Salvation was his!
Holy Scripture teaches prayers for the dead "In Christ" are good; they are called "Brothers and Sisters"!
7 because anyone who has died has been set free from sin 8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him.

1 Samuel 28:11
Then the woman asked, “Whom shall I bring up for you?”
“Bring up Samuel,” he said.
12 When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out at the top of her voice and said to Saul, “Why have you deceived me? You are Saul!”
13 The king said to her, “Don’t be afraid. What do you see?”
The woman said, “I see a ghostly figure coming up out of the earth.”
14 “What does he look like?” he asked.
“An old man wearing a robe is coming up,” she said.
Then Saul knew it was Samuel, and he bowed down and prostrated himself with his face to the ground.
15 Samuel said to Saul, “Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?”

URAVIP2M Clearly the dead (Samuel) in the scriptures is not without understanding!!

You should pray for the dead and God will give them life!
From the mouth of Jesus...
Matthew 25:46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

URAVIP2M If there is Eternal life, then there is Eternal punishment! Jesus uses the same word... Eternal!

 

[URAVIP2ME]

......................If God does not let people suffer in hell, then why does he let so many people suffer now? Is that fair, when they have done relatively little wrong?
God is the fairest of all judges. Humans are not. They make up what seems good to them.

Good grief ! Remember: God "IS" love. Love does Not suffer people.
Jesus was well educated in the old Hebrew Scriptures which teach sleep (Not pain) in death.
Psalms 115:17 and Isaiah 38:18 agrees and so does Ecclesiastes 9:5 thus Jesus taught the same at John 11:11-14.
Sinner Satan challenged God that Job under suffering conditions would Not serve God - Job 2:4-5.
'Touch his flesh..... '( loose physical health ) and Job would not serve God under bad conditions.
By way of extension we are ALL part of that suffering issue raised by; Satan.
Both Job and Jesus under adverse conditions proved Satan a liar and so can we.
Look, suffering will cease when Jesus comes ! - Revelation 22:20,2
This is why we are all invited to pray the invitation to God for Jesus to come !
Jesus will end suffering because ALL nations of Earth will be healed - Revelation 22:2
Healthy healing as described in Isaiah 35th chapter.
No one will say, " I am sick......" - Isaiah 33:24
Even ' enemy death ' will come to a final end on Earth as found at 1 Corinthians 15:24-26; Isaiah 25:8

 

[URAVIP2ME]

The rich man and Lazarus is a parable illustrative story and Not a real happening. - Matthew 13:34; Mark 4:34
Dead Samuel was Not brought up but just seemed that way.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

I believe those who have not heard of Jesus go by these:
For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without the law. As many as have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. For it isn't the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law will be justified (for when Gentiles who don't have the law do by nature the things of the law, these, not having the law, are a law to themselves, in that they show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience testifying with them, and their thoughts among themselves accusing or else excusing them) in the day when God will judge the secrets of men, according to my gospel, by Jesus Christ.
Romans 2:12-16Most assuredly, I tell you, the hour comes, and now is, when the dead will hear the Son of God’s voice; and those who hear will live. John 5:25

John 5:24-25 connects to 1 John 3:13-14 passing over from spiritual death to spiritual life.
This is because of being set free from the law of sin and of death - Romans 8:2
So, Jesus was Not speaking about literal death, Not about people already in their graves.
Rather, Jesus was referring to ones who were spiritually dead such as the man found at Matthew 8:21-22.
Before literal death we can be raised up, so to speak, out of spiritual death living with the hope of everlasting life.
- 1 Peter 4:3-6
Any thoughts regarding John 6:40 _________________

 

[URAVIP2ME]

.........I can only hope that God will forgive me, and give me strength.

MORE than only hope because one who repents is forgiven - 2 Peter 3:9 B
" IF " we do as 1 John 1:7 says Jesus sacrificial blood covers us.
You might like what is written at Isaiah 1:18 _________________

 

[muhammad_isa]

Good grief ! Remember: God "IS" love. Love does Not suffer people.

That makes no sense..
God is God .. love is one of His attributes .. a selfless love .. a purer form of love than a human is capable of.

Nevertheless, God is not "a fool" .. it makes no sense that somebody like Hitler will just "cease to be", while so many suffered by his hand.

Jesus did not teach that, in any case.
Your quotes of this verse and that verse, while ignoring this appears to be deceitful..
Why would a person do that?

 

[osgart]

I don't see anyone repenting unless they lose exactly what they have robbed others of.

The worst people in the history of humanity certainly deserve punishment equal to what they have robbed others of.

I think purgatory is some kind of fantasy for bad people.

Without punishment no one learns and changes. That doesn't mean that humans are qualified to deliver that kind of justice.

As for salvation I love to think it is universal and that there is a truth that conquers the hearts of all the worst people. I'd love to think that every bad person will meet justice as deserved and that would change them all.

The idea that there is a free pass for bad people at the expense of the innocent is a bad person's fantasy. It changes nothing. The threat of eternal hell changes no one.

For every bad person's actions there must be consequences fit for what they did. Otherwise there's no appreciation on their part for the suffering they've caused.

I see that humanity is not righteous enough to deliver justice. It takes perfect innocence, judgment, knowledge and wisdom to be authority. It takes knowing things humans couldn't possibly know.

All humanity can do is enforce laws to make life safer and more worthwhile for people that are on the side of life, and for those that have done no wrong. Laws are mainly to keep bad people in line, and protect the innocent.

I hope there is a force of justice that conquers all but right now that seems very strongly to be wishful thinking. It's almost indisputable that good people suffer atrocity, and bad people live without consequences often enough.

Love is the answer. But I don't see love as a pushover that takes evil and just let's it run wild and free to do whatever harm it wishes.

Mercy has its limits. Forbearance and tolerance have limits. Self defense is what love does when needed. Why should purgatory and heaven be any different? What lessons are you going to teach those that commit rape and genocide? There are none for that.

 

[1213]

...
Any thoughts regarding John 6:40 _________________

I don't think it helps in this case, because not speaking of purgatory.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

That makes no sense..
God is God .. love is one of His attributes .. a selfless love .. a purer form of love than a human is capable of.
Nevertheless, God is not "a fool" .. it makes no sense that somebody like Hitler will just "cease to be", while so many suffered by his hand. Jesus did not teach that, in any case.
Your quotes of this verse and that verse, while ignoring this appears to be deceitful..
Why would a person do that?

I find God's 'attributes' are such things as: justice, power, wisdom, mercy .....
In other words, God ' has ' power ', God ' has ' justice, God ' has ' wisdom', God ' has ' mercy......
Whereas, God " IS " love - 1 John 4:16; 1 John 4:8 B
Jesus taught about Gehenna ( wrongly translated into English as hell fire )
Gehenna was a garbage pit outside of Jerusalem where things were destroyed.
Gehenna stands for: destruction.
It is ' repent ' or ' perish ' ( perish means: destroyed ) - 2 Peter 3:9
Destruction for the wicked is in harmony with Psalms 37:38; Psalms 92:7; Psalms 104:35; Proverbs 2:21-22.
Please notice what the executional words from Jesus' mouth will do as found at Isaiah 11:3-4; Revelation 19:14-15.
Besides Hitler, so many have suffered by sinner Satan's hands. Jesus will ' destroy' Satan - Hebrews 2:14 B.
I am Not ignoring what the Bible really teaches, what we can learn from the Bible.
Why would a person ignore what the Bible is saying?

 

[URAVIP2ME]

I don't think it helps in this case, because not speaking of purgatory.

So, you are thinking along the lines that there is No resurrection out of purgatory ___________
Who is resurrected then at John 6:40 ___________

 

[URAVIP2ME]

.......Love is the answer. But I don't see love as a pushover that takes evil and just let's it run wild and free to do whatever harm it wishes.
Mercy has its limits. Forbearance and tolerance have limits. Self defense is what love does when needed. Why should purgatory and heaven be any different? What lessons are you going to teach those that commit rape and genocide? There are none for that.

I like that you say ' love is the answer ' because the Bible's God is just that: God "IS" love. - 1 John 4:16
Purgatory is Not a Bible teaching.
Heaven is only for people like those of Luke 22:28-30 who have that first or earlier resurrection - Revelation 20:6
The majority of people can have a happy-and-healthy resurrection back to live life again on Earth.
The same opportunity that was offered to Adam before his downfall to have everlasting life on Earth forever.

 

[muhammad_isa]

..I am Not ignoring what the Bible really teaches..

Matthew 25 is quite clear..

44 "They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'
45 "He will reply, 'Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'
46 "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

This is reporting what Jesus actually said.
Do I really need to quote verse after verse, like you, on this matter .. isn't that enough?
You say the eternal punishment is "death" .. what sort of punishment is that?
Who cares if their soul "dies"? So what?

It is not really very different to an atheist who claims we all "die", and there is no such thing as a soul.