What do you think of Purgatory?

[URAVIP2ME]

......................Again, the "once saved, always saved" concept is very dangerous spiritually, and it can lull some into a false sense of security. IMO, the Boss will do the judging, so we should allow "Him" to make such decisions, not us.

Yes, Jesus did Not teach any such ' once saved, always saved ' but rather to endure to the end - Matthew 24:13
And as 1st Cor. 10:12 cautions us to beware..........
Even Paul expressed concern lest he end up a castaway - 1st Cor. 9:27

 

[Bird123]

No, not as a geographical location, but it does exist as a state of mind in this life and as a state of the soul in the afterlife.

Do not count on Hell existing in the after life. It would serve no purpose. God is above the petty things mankind holds so dear. On the other hand, if people do choose to value those petty things, I can see how people might believe or even want Hell to exist. There is a lesson to learn.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

 

[Estro Felino]

Do not count on Hell existing in the after life. It would serve no purpose. God is above the petty things mankind holds so dear. On the other hand, if people do choose to value those petty things, I can see how people might believe or even want Hell to exist. There is a lesson to learn.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

Pure allegories invented to be comprehensible to the populace. That's what Paradise-Purgatory-Inferno are.
If a person is filled with love, they are already in Paradise.
If a person is filled with hatred, they are already in Hell.

 

[Trailblazer]

Do not count on Hell existing in the after life. It would serve no purpose. God is above the petty things mankind holds so dear. On the other hand, if people do choose to value those petty things, I can see how people might believe or even want Hell to exist. There is a lesson to learn.

I did not say that Hell exists in the afterlife.
I said that hell is not a geographical location, but it exists as a state of the soul in the afterlife.
People make their own Hell by rejecting God and favoring earthly pleasures, God does not send them to Hell.

 

[1213]

...
Sin is Not equal in the sense that sin is: either on purpose or not, deliberate or not, intentional or not, willful or not.

Yes, agree that ALL resurrected have the chance to become righteous because as Acts 24:15 says the coming resurrection includes both the righteous and unrighteous as being worthy of a resurrection.
(Only the wicked destroyed - Psalm 37:38; Psalm 92:7; Psalm 104:35; Proverbs 2:21-22)
The righteous to choose to remain righteous and the unrighteous to then choose to become righteous and remain righteous.

Sorry, I don't think there is unintentional sin that was not done on purpose.

Also, I don't think the unrighteous have chance anymore at the resurrection. They are resurrected to their judgment.

and will come out; those who have done good, to the resurrection of life; and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of judgment.
John 5:29

It is too late then, and I don't think they would even want to change.

 

[wellwisher]

This question is addressed to Christians, particularly.
I am curious about the other people's stance, though.
So anyone can express their opinion on what Purgatory is.

Purgatory - Wikipedia

You can express your global vision on soteriology, as well. I would appreciate it, if you did.
Thank you in advance.

In the Old Testament people believed that one slept after death, which is closer to what modern Atheism thinks. One is not conscious when they sleep, except in dreams. The New Testament was more about life after death via heaven and hell. Purgatory is sort in the middle between these extremes.

In terms of Purgatory, when you die one does not sleep or go directly to heaven or hell. Rather there is a waiting period in Purgatory, where most people will go. It is similar to the sports draft, where dead people collect, to be chosen to go to heaven or to hell. Nobody is pure evil or pure good, so Purgatory helps to sort out the gray areas.

An important factor in which of the two teams drafts and picks you, as well as your position in the draft, is how the people you left behind, feel about you after you die. If you were well loved this move you closer to the front of the line to heaven; faster path to heaven. While if you were feared and hated this moves you closer to the front of the line to hell.

Those who may not have anyone to speak on their behalf, can stay in Purgatory for some time. Many are often seen walking the earth looking for support from the living; ghosts. Other are assisted by strangers who pray on behalf of all the dead; Memorial Day.

 

[metis]

There is a process to overcoming the sins we commit after salvation, but it no longer separates us from God's presence.

Does that mean "once saved always saved"? No.

IMO, those two sentences contradict one another. In the top, you assume that the person already has "salvation" even though they are still alive, but then in the bottom sentences you say "no" to that.

[also see my next post]

 

[metis]

I think that the Sower and the Seed isn't about returning to faith. The sower and the seed is more about progression of the veracity of the word and its capacity. IMV

It states that one may fall away from the faith, much like Paul stated later.

Sorry, but you're trying to force a square peg into a round hole. In the Parable of the Sheep & Goats, Jesus condemns the latter, not because they don't have any belief in him but because they're belief didn't manifest itself into "agape". In Koine Greek, that word implies action, sorta like saying "living a life of love". It's not "kissy-face love", or "making love", or even just "having love".

 

[Estro Felino]

In the Old Testament people believed that one slept after death, which is closer to what modern Atheism thinks. One is not conscious when they sleep, except in dreams. The New Testament was more about life after death via heaven and hell. Purgatory is sort in the middle between these extremes.

In terms of Purgatory, when you die one does not sleep or go directly to heaven or hell. Rather there is a waiting period in Purgatory, where most people will go. It is similar to the sports draft, where dead people collect, to be chosen to go to heaven or to hell. Nobody is pure evil or pure good, so Purgatory helps to sort out the gray areas.

An important factor in which of the two teams drafts and picks you, as well as your position in the draft, is how the people you left behind, feel about you after you die. If you were well loved this move you closer to the front of the line to heaven; faster path to heaven. While if you were feared and hated this moves you closer to the front of the line to hell.

Those who may not have anyone to speak on their behalf, can stay in Purgatory for some time. Many are often seen walking the earth looking for support from the living; ghosts. Other are assisted by strangers who pray on behalf of all the dead; Memorial Day.

This stance is very interesting.
I think there's a great difference between venial sins and deadly sins.
People tend to overindulge and then to repent...and they will have to atone for their sins in Purgatory.
In Purgatory people do suffer. I have heard terrible stories, of people who experienced Purgatory and then came back. It's a necessary expiation to be cleansed from sin.
People in Purgatory do acknowledge they were sinners.

People who go to Hell are not aware of their sins. They think that the evil they commit is good.
They are already in Hell on this Earth.
Which is not a punishment...it's their own condition of blindness. There are people who believe theirs life is perfect, and that they are perfect.
Even if they harm others...but are not aware of the consequences of their actions.

 

[Kenny]

IMO, those two sentences contradict one another. In the top, you assume that the person already has "salvation" even though they are still alive, but then in the bottom sentences you say "no" to that.

[also see my next post]

will look at next post though I personally don't see a contradiction. No more than if I were to say, "You are alive right now but if you don't stop smoking, you will die". Are you smoking?

 

[Kenny]

It states that one may fall away from the faith, much like Paul stated later.

Sorry, but you're trying to force a square peg into a round hole. In the Parable of the Sheep & Goats, Jesus condemns the latter, not because they don't have any belief in him but because they're belief didn't manifest itself into "agape". In Koine Greek, that word implies action, sorta like saying "living a life of love". It's not "kissy-face love", or "making love", or even just "having love".

Maybe I am mixing up which parable you are talking about?

I do agree with the sheep and the goats. I do wonder, however, if the goats were saved in the first place. Thoughts?

 

[Dogknox20]

John 16:
7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;
10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

In our scriptures, Jesus expressed it this way:

His Holy Spirit is constantly expressing three point, sin, righteousness and judgment and then Jesus explains each point:

1. The only sin that is the dividing line is whether or not one has believed on Jesus Christ. It isn't the litany of what we have done wrong, doing wrong or going to do wrong. Rather it is the simply the sin on not believing on him.
   1. Why? Because the totality of all sin was paid for on the Cross.
   2. We all have heard that there is "no double jeopardy clause". In that God has judged our sins as "no guilty" by virtue of the Cross, the sins no longer are charged to our offense.
   3. The sin that we have not been declared "not guilty" is the sin of not believing on Jesus
2. Of righteousness, because Jesus went to the Father and the Father said "justice is satisfied" - my creation is now reconciled to me. (Again, we can reject the righteousness if we so choose)
3. And judgment. The real judgement is not against man but against the prince of this world. When we don't believe on Jesus, we are guilty by association and receive the judgment that was reserved for the prince of this world. Like a murderer who pulls the trigger but the other person who drove the car is guilty by association.

At least in my understanding.

Kenny good to meet you... A brother or sister are those IN the body of Jesus!
1 John 5:16
If you see any brother or sister commit a sin that does not lead to death, you should pray, and God will give them life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that you should pray about that.

Think a brother dies with a sin that does not kill (Does not lead to death); They will not enter Gehenna the home of Satan because their soul is still alive! They cannot enter heaven because nothing impure can enter heaven... They Must be Sanctified first! Clearly there are many sins that do not lead to death!

 

[Kenny]

Kenny good to meet you... A brother or sister are those IN the body of Jesus!
1 John 5:16
If you see any brother or sister commit a sin that does not lead to death, you should pray, and God will give them life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that you should pray about that.

Think a brother dies with a sin that does not kill (Does not lead to death); They will not enter Gehenna the home of Satan because their soul is still alive! They cannot enter heaven because nothing impure can enter heaven... They Must be Sanctified first! Clearly there are many sins that do not lead to death!

I'm not quite sure how that applies.

What is the sin that lead to death?

 

[metis]

will look at next post though I personally don't see a contradiction. No more than if I were to say, "You are alive right now but if you don't stop smoking, you will die". Are you smoking?

Smoking hot!

 

[metis]

I do agree with the sheep and the goats. I do wonder, however, if the goats were saved in the first place. Thoughts?

Not according to the test:
Matt.25[37] Then the righteous will answer him, `Lord, when did we see thee hungry and feed thee, or thirsty and give thee drink?
[38] And when did we see thee a stranger and welcome thee, or naked and clothe thee?
[39] And when did we see thee sick or in prison and visit thee?'
[40] And the King will answer them, `Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me.'
[41] Then he will say to those at his left hand, `Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels;
[42] for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink,
[43] I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.'
[44] Then they also will answer, `Lord, when did we see thee hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to thee?'
[45] Then he will answer them, `Truly, I say to you, as you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me.'
[46] And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

There's a great danger in believing that one is "saved", which the Goats appear to believe as such. Us humans have a propensity to excuse our faults by making excuses or by saying things like "Everyone else does it too!".

The once saved, always saved" concept is a bastardization of the Gospel because it makes us the Judge, not the Boss. On top of that, it can lead us into carelessness and/or into self-centered arrogance. Even though Paul said he thought he deserved the prize (of salvation, he wouldn't judge himself because of not understanding his "innermost thoughts".

It simply is wrong and dangerous.

 

[Bird123]

I did not say that Hell exists in the afterlife.
I said that hell is not a geographical location, but it exists as a state of the soul in the afterlife.
People make their own Hell by rejecting God and favoring earthly pleasures, God does not send them to Hell.

What you do not realize is that God is Unconditional. Choices a person makes only determines the lessons they choose for themselves.

Everyone will know God's Unconditional Love that heals all hurt. It is a Love that feels so good and so complete one would do anything for it. At this point, religion's accepting and rejecting is meaningless.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

 

[Kenny]

There's a great danger in believing that one is "saved", which the Goats appear to believe as such. Us humans have a propensity to excuse our faults by making excuses or by saying things like "Everyone else does it too!".

The once saved, always saved" concept is a bastardization of the Gospel because it makes us the Judge, not the Boss. On top of that, it can lead us into carelessness and/or into self-centered arrogance. Even though Paul said he thought he deserved the prize (of salvation, he wouldn't judge himself because of not understanding his "innermost thoughts".

It simply is wrong and dangerous.

I agree

Not according to the test:
Matt.25[37] Then the righteous will answer him, `Lord, when did we see thee hungry and feed thee, or thirsty and give thee drink?
[38] And when did we see thee a stranger and welcome thee, or naked and clothe thee?
[39] And when did we see thee sick or in prison and visit thee?'
[40] And the King will answer them, `Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me.'
[41] Then he will say to those at his left hand, `Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels;
[42] for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink,
[43] I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.'
[44] Then they also will answer, `Lord, when did we see thee hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to thee?'
[45] Then he will answer them, `Truly, I say to you, as you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me.'
[46] And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

But if you are a sheep and welcome the stranger, clothe the naked, visit the sick, Isn't there a confidence?

Jude 1:24
Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

1 John 3:21
Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God.

1 John 2:28
And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.

Hebrews 10:35
Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward.

Ephesians 3:12
In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him.

 

[metis]

But if you are a sheep and welcome the stranger, clothe the naked, visit the sick, Isn't there a confidence?

Yes, there can and should be, but one still has to be careful with what we say and do plus also beware that backsliding is always possible. I don't think it's bad to question as we cannot grow unless we do as such, but that also brings dangers as well as I personally experienced.

What Gandhi noticed with some of the "once saved, always saved" Christians is that they didn't seem much to care about what they said and did because they thought they already were "saved".

Frankly, even if I just use RF as an example, there are some atheists and agnostics here that I who say and support things that are more moral under the most basic Judeo-Christian standards versus some self-professed Christians. Obviously, I am not going to mention any names nor imply anyone or any denominations. My guess is that you've seen much the same.

 

[Dogknox20]

I'm not quite sure how that applies.

What is the sin that lead to death?

Kenny Good question...
It applies this way! The Soul must be purged, cleansed, sanctified before it can have a life in Paradise! Nothing impure can enter heaven!

1 John 5:16
If you see any brother or sister commit a sin that does not lead to death, you should pray, and God will give them life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that you should pray about that.

Revelation 21:27
Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life.

A sin that wounds the sou does not kill the soul; l the soul is not dead. Only the dead are the children of Satan! God will sanctify the soul if you pray for the brother or sister!

A sin that leads to death is a sin committed that knowingly rejects God. A sin that kills the soul could be something like premediated murder!

10 By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as a wise builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should build with care. 11 For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. 14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.

 

[Muffled]

This question is addressed to Christians, particularly.
I am curious about the other people's stance, though.
So anyone can express their opinion on what Purgatory is.

Purgatory - Wikipedia

You can express your global vision on soteriology, as well. I would appreciate it, if you did.
Thank you in advance.

I believe as a concept rather than a place, then we are all in it. Only those in Heaven escape it. As an alternative to Hell, it lacks credence. In a sense Hell is a purgatory as well.