muhammad_isa
Well-Known Member
Do those verses contain the whole of the Bible?
..thought not .. in any case I assume that you would like to go to paradise and do the necessaries .. just in case.
-
Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:- Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
- Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
- Access to private conversations with other members.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!
What do you think of Purgatory?
- Thread starter Estro Felino
- Start date
..thought not .. in any case I assume that you would like to go to paradise and do the necessaries .. just in case.
Hermit Philosopher
Selflessly here for you
Dear muhammad_isa,
I have thought about your comment and though I could not possibly know your predicament, something about this feels problematic.
Perhaps it’s merely semantics but saying you hope that you are forgiven before saying that you also hope for strength, makes me wonder if it is so that you have already decided to act from that sense of “weakness” you mention that you have?
It is of course entirely your choice, but would it not be a little interesting to explore what strategies you may have at your disposal to constructively be able to empower yourself against such “weaknesses”…?
In my experience, when we merely “resist” something, it risks consuming us; creating a huge void of emptiness and sense of meaninglessness within. But, when we manage to convert a “resistance” into something fruitful and rewarding -perhaps beyond what we envisioned receiving through what we resist- our whole view of the situation changes and we no longer even want what we were once resisting so desperately.
Life is, after all -if we allow it to be- an amazing opportunity to explore what internal changes are achievable and how.
Humbly,
Hermit
muhammad_isa
Well-Known Member
It is .. I'm becoming "too old in the tooth" .. none of us are here in this life forever.
We can but try..
..medication and social therapy?
See the flowers, and not the weeds, you mean?
Thanks for your post.
Hermit Philosopher
Selflessly here for you
Hah. No, I truly was not referring to that here.
Is that what first comes to mind?
It’s obviously not easy to pick a good example to illustrate by, when addressing a stranger about an unknown situation and I do not expect you to elaborate on your predicament on a social platform, so perhaps my reflections should not have been expressed.
Apologies; your comment had just stayed with me a little longer than usual.
Humbly,
Hermit
muhammad_isa
Well-Known Member
No apology necessary .. I enjoy reading your posts.
Dogknox20
Well-Known Member
URAVIP2ME Yes: Gehenna was a garbage pit outside of Jerusalem and it was always on fire. It is an example of the fire of hell!
The words of Jesus... Mark 9:48 where “‘the worms that eat them do not die,
and the fire is not quenched.’
49 Everyone will be salted with fire.
2 Thessalonians 1:9 but everlasting destruction
Dictionary
Eternal
lasting or existing forever; without end or beginning.
"the secret of eternal youth"
Everlasting
lasting forever or a very long time.
Rev 20:10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Matt 25;41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.”
Rev 14:3 And they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders. No one could learn the song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth. 4 These are those who did not defile themselves with women, for they remained virgins. They follow the Lamb wherever he goes. They were purchased from among mankind and offered as first fruits to God and the Lamb.
Dogknox20
Well-Known Member
URAVIP2ME I hope all is well...
Christians have always believed Hell is Eternal the same as Heaven is "Eternal"! The teaching of Charles Taze Russell go against what Christians have always believed!
Matthew 25:46
“Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
URAVIP2ME Gehenna was burning forever... It's fires never went out! It is used as an example for the place of torment reserved for Satan and his children!
Early Christians tell you......
Ignatius of Antioch 110 A.D.
“Corrupters of families will not inherit the kingdom of God. And if they who do these things according to the flesh suffer death, how much more if a man corrupted by evil teaching the faith of God for the sake of which Jesus Christ was crucified? A man become so foul will depart into unquenchable fire: and so, will anyone who listens to him” (Letter to the Ephesians 16:1–2 [A.D. 110]).
Second Clement A.D. 150
“If we do the will of Christ, we shall obtain rest; but if not, if we neglect his commandments, nothing will rescue us from eternal punishment” (Second Clement 5:5 [A.D. 150]).
.
“But when they see how those who have sinned and who have denied Jesus by their words or by their deeds are punished with terrible torture in unquenchable fire, the righteous, who have done good, and who have endured tortures and have hated the luxuries of life, will give glory to their God saying, ‘There shall be hope for him that has served God with all his heart!’” (ibid., 17:7).
Justin Martyr A.D. 151
“No more is it possible for the evildoer, the avaricious, and the treacherous to hide from God than it is for the virtuous. Every man will receive the eternal punishment or reward which his actions deserve. Indeed, if all men recognized this, no one would choose evil even for a short time, knowing that he would incur the eternal sentence of fire” (First Apology 12 [A.D. 151]).
“We have been taught that only they may aim at immortality who have lived a holy and virtuous life near to God. We believe that they who live wickedly and do not repent will be punished in everlasting fire” (ibid., 21).
“[Jesus] shall come from the heavens in glory with his angelic host, when he shall raise the bodies of all the men who ever lived. Then he will clothe the worthy in immortality; but the wicked, clothed in eternal sensibility, he will commit to the eternal fire, along with the evil demons” (ibid., 52).
The Martyrdom of Polycarp A.D. 155
“Fixing their minds on the grace of Christ, [the martyrs] despised worldly tortures and purchased eternal life with but a single hour. To them, the fire of their cruel torturers was cold. They kept before their eyes their escape from the eternal and unquenchable fire” (Martyrdom of Polycarp 2:3 [A.D. 155]).
Muffled
Jesus in me
Yes, I believe that too ..
Some people will go directly to paradise.
some people will be in hell, but some time later will be removed.
..and then some, like satan, will be in hell forever.
I don't know how long "forever" is, and wouldn't want to find out.
I believe it is very rare for a person to go to paradise.
I believe no-one will be in hell before the end of the world and the majority won't be there until the last judgment.
I wouldn't guarantee that Satan will be in Hell forever or anyone else.
Muffled
Jesus in me
I believe that is speculation. I believe I was one of the crowd that followed Jesus but departed when he mentioned drinking His blood. I have come a long way since then and have my own opinions but I find God is faithful in shaping my thinking.
Muffled
Jesus in me
I believe it is God who purifies and that includes anyone willing.
That makes two truths that I won't argue about since it matches my signature.
Yes, because Jesus referred back to the old Hebrew Scriptures as the basis for his teaching that the dead: sleep - John 11:11-14Do those verses contain the whole of the Bible?
..thought not .. in any case I assume that you would like to go to paradise and do the necessaries .. just in case.
In other words, Jesus' teaching is in harmony with the OT such as at Psalms 115:17; Isaiah 38:18; Ecclesiastes 9:5
Before Jesus died (John 3:13) No one was offered heaven.
Not even any of God's Hall of Fame persons listed in Hebrews chapter 11. - Hebrews 11:13; Hebrews 11:39
They, like Daniel (Daniel 12:13), are still sleeping in death til the coming Resurrection Day - John 6:40
Even King David did not ascend anywhere according to Acts of the Apostles 2:34
What Adam and Eve needed to do to continue their everlasting life on a beautiful paradisical Garden of Eden is what those who have a physical resurrection will also be doing in order to gain eternal life on Earth as originally offered to Adam before his downfall.
Please notice the ^ above ^ quotes took place after Luke's warning at Acts of the Apostles 20:29-30.
I think you know what is thrown into the incinerator (Gehenna ) was turned into ash.
Adam went back returning to dust - Genesis 3:19
Can't glue back dust and or ashes.
Whatever is thrown into a fireplace, a fire pit, a burn barrel is gone forever, forever gone.
So, Gehenna stands for destruction and why Psalms 92:7; Psalms 104:35 lets us know the punishment is annihilation.
Please notice what is recorded at 2 Peter 3:9 because it is ' repent ' or ' PERISH' ( perish means: destruction )
- www.jw.org
Adam and Eve were in paradise, the paradisical Garden of Eden and offered eternal life on a paradise Earth.
The coming end of the world of badness ( 2 Timothy 3:1-5,13) is when the sheep and goats are separated.
That is the last judgement -> for the living on Earth at Jesus' coming Glory Time of separation - Matthew 25:31-34,37
Then, we have a thousand-year judgement day aka Jesus' Millennium-Long Day judging over Earth.
This is when the righteous and unrighteous are resurrected - John 6:40; Acts of the Apostles 24:15
They are resurrected on Earth, an Earth that will become like the paradisical Garden of Eden originally was.
During Jesus' 1,000 year reign over Earth biblical hell/grave will ' deliver up ' its dead - Revelation 20:13-14
After everyone in biblical hell/grave is resurrected out of biblical hell, then emptied-out hell is cast vacant into that symbolic ' second death ' for vacated biblical hell grave.
Sinner Satan never was and never will be in any hell.
Sinner Satan ends up in ' second death ' - Revelation 21:8
Sinner Satan is destroyed by Jesus - Hebrews 2:14 B ( gone forever )
ALL the wicked are: destroyed - Psalms 37:38; Psalms 92:7; Psalms 104:35; Proverbs 2:21-22
Sinner Satan is wicked, and No wicked person (human or angelic) can gain everlasting life anywhere.
muhammad_isa
Well-Known Member
Tell me .. do you want to live forever?
If so, why?
I would be quite content to sleep forever knowing nothing.
..no such luck .. life is not that easy .. never has been .. never will be!
We are accountable .. not one of us is guaranteed not to suffer after our death.
We all rely on God's Mercy. We should not think too highly of ourselves.
Half of faith is hope in God's Mercy .. the other half is fear of His wrath.
A person who is convicted of a serious crime will be executed or imprisoned.
It does not depend on whether the person is a believer or not .. and quite rightly so.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
..so you want to live forever. pfff .. I believe I will live forever, as we all do.
I have no choice in the matter .. killing myself won't help.
Last edited:
Dogknox20
Well-Known Member
.
Acts 20:29-30 I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock. 30 Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them.
URAVIP2ME The Church Jesus established on Rock 2000 years ago will never fail! Jesus did not build on sand Jesus is Not a Fool!
Scriptures tell you: Jesus is Always With his Body his holy Church to the end of time! Arius WAS a Christian until he rejected what Christians have always believed>> Jesus is God!! Arius was rejected by Christians he was AMONG Christians as the prophesy in Acts 20:30 (above) point out! Proving......
URAVIP2ME proving what Arius believed was NOT the way of truth!
More scripture prophesy (below) to make it very clear to you...
2 Peter 2:1 But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves. 2 Many will follow their depraved conduct and will bring the way of truth into disrepute.
Arius was rejected by Christians because he rejected what Christians have always believed he was rejected as a False Teacher! Clearly Arius is a Salvage Wolf what he believed was Wrong just as it was prophesied!!
Jesus is the Man-God a Man with God' Holy Spirit! Unseparated Flesh and Spirit are always united forever!
Yes, Adam went back returning to dust when his Spirit left him!
Gehenna stands for destruction and eternal flame! The flesh of everyone rots/ashes but the spirit never dies!
2 Kings 2:15
The company of the prophets from Jericho, who were watching, said, “The spirit of Elijah is resting on Elisha.” And they went to meet him and bowed to the ground before him.
URAVIP2ME Every person has a spirit when their spirit leaves them, their body dies! Evil spirit can enter a person the body/flesh is the home of the spirit! The body will be destroyed the spirit cannot die! Evil Spirits leave a body and then search for another to live in the spirit stays alive>> Forever! Satan is Spirit NO Flesh!
The body dies but the spirit will live... In heaven God will give us back our body those in Hell the home of Satan they will remain Evil Spirits!
All in Satan's home have perished they are just spirit!
....................................................................
per·ish
/ˈperiSH/
verb
past tense: perished; past participle: perished
- suffer death, typically in a violent, sudden, or untimely way.
"a great part of his army perished of hunger and disease"
Similar:
die
lose one's life
be killed
depart this life
- suffer complete ruin or destruction.
"the old regime had to perish"
.......................................................................................
- suffer complete ruin or destruction.
muhammad_isa
Well-Known Member
You are continuing the "sick" behaviour of your predecessors..
..pointing to "Arius" and claiming that it was all his fault that people believed that a man is not God.
Jews are not "Christians" either, but they are believers, as are others who believe that a man cannot be God.
Ridiculous. "trinity belief" was enforced by Roman Empire builders, and God knows why they declared war on their fellow believers in the OT and Jesus. The NT never existed in the time of Jesus.
I totally agree with you there..
Dogknox20
Well-Known Member
.
muhammad_isa I hope all is well...
You make good points but if you think about what you said you are defending my position!
Arius "Was" a Christian until Christians rejected him! Christians rejected Arius because he taught Jesus is Not God! The scriptures warned Christians there would be people "Among Them" that were hieratics!
Scripture Prophesy...2 Peter 2:1 But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves. 2 Many will follow their depraved conduct and will bring the way of truth into disrepute.
muhammad_isa Arius started the controversy! It was because of this that the "Counsil of Nica" was convened! It was decided By Christians "Jesus is truly Man/God!"
God is Spirit.
The Word is Spirit
The Holy Spirit is Spirit.
God is Spirit; But the Word came to earth to save man from death... The Word became flesh!
John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.
.
14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the father, full of grace and truth.
muhammad_isa God in heaven gained the title "Father" when Jesus was born! No man is called Father until there is a birth! Jesus became "Son of God" at his birth!
Your words... Jews are not "Christians" either, but they are believers, as are others who believe that a man cannot be God.
Scriptures...John 6:52 Then the Jews began to argue sharply among themselves, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?”
Christians are NOT Jews: Christians believe God can take any form he wants to take even the form of a Man! Jesus just told these Jews his flesh is living Bread it must be eaten to have life! Christians believe God can take any form he wants to take even the form of "Bread"!
John 6:53 Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. 56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them.
You are right to say Jews are not "Christians" Christian's worship Jesus because Jesus is God!
Thomas is an Apostle he is Christian...
John 20:28 Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”
29 Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”
Clearly Jesus is saying, those who do Not believe as Thomas the Christian are Not Blessed!
muhammad_isa God is not an oppressive ruler we are not his slaves we are his Children! God loves us, he offered up himself out of pure love to save us from death!
Jesus died in our place he destroyed death from the cross and he restored life! God is Love!
1 John 3:1
See what great love the Father has lavished on us, that we should be called children of God! And that is what we are! The reason the world does not know us is that it did not know him.
1 John 3:10
This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not God’s child, nor is anyone who does not love their brother and sister.
1 John 4:16
And so we know and rely on the love God has for us. God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.
Matthew 5:2
He said:
3 “Blessed are the poor in spirit,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
4 Blessed are those who mourn,
for they will be comforted.
5 Blessed are the meek,
for they will inherit the earth.
6 Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness,
for they will be filled.
7 Blessed are the merciful,
for they will be shown mercy.
8 Blessed are the pure in heart,
for they will see God.
9 Blessed are the peacemakers,
for they will be called children of God.
10 Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
11 “Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. 12 Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.
muhammad_isa
Well-Known Member
That is what you are supposed to believe..
..and what do you know about Origen
Origen of Alexandria ( c. 185 – c. 253), also known as Origen Adamantius, was an early Christian scholar, ascetic, and theologian who was born and spent the first half of his career in Alexandria.
What a "pity" that we haven't got his original works .. we only have Latin translations, that we know have been altered. Some Roman Emperors ordered 1000's of texts to be destroyed.
However, they can't stop God establishing the truth in the world.
You merely follow the rhetoric that the Roman Empire enforced.
The belief that Jesus is a created being, was not only believed by Arius .. millions of Christians believed that, and they were persecuted and slaughtered.
..and then came the Qur'an .. that tells us exactly the same thing.
..and they did not have to make trouble, in "deciding" what God is or isn't. It was political in nature.
No .. the Romans did not want that .. they destroyed the temple that Jesus used to attend.
Yes .. God can do anything He wants .. but why He would pretend to be a man, and get killed purposely, I cannot make any sense of at all !
In life there is No sleeping in death. Only in death is there sleeping in death as Jesus teaches us at John 11:11-14.
In the beginning, life was easy and not hard for Adam and Eve.
Jesus to return to us that original easy life as was found in the delightful paradisical Garden of Eden.
Yes, we are all accountable and that is why we die. SIN is the total asking price tag that SIN pays - Romans 6:23,7
No where does it say SIN plus any post-mortem penalty, No double jeopardy to be paid for after SIN.
Does Not have to be fear (fright) of God's wrath, but rather reverential fear of displeasing someone you love.
Yes, like the person who is convicted of a serious crime of committing the unforgivable sin - Matthew 12:32 - is never forgiven, but classed with the wicked who are executed for justice sake. - Isaiah 11:3-4; Revelation 19:14-15.
The wicked who are destroyed forever - Psalms 37:38; Psalms 92:7; Psalms 104:35; Proverbs 2:21-22.