• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

What are the best and worst things about heaven?

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
What are the best and worst things about heaven?
I’ll start. There are a lot more things but these are my top 5.

Best things about heaven:

1. No more cars or traffic.
2. No more houses to take care of.
3. No more physical ailments or physical pain.
4. No more grief when loved ones die.
5. Seeing loved ones again.

Worst things about heaven:

1. There is no way of knowing what it will be like.
2. There is no itinerary.
3. There is no return ticket if we don’t like it.
4. Eternity is a long time.
5. There might be no animals there.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
What are the best and worst things about heaven?
I’ll start. There are a lot more things but these are my top 5.

Best things about heaven:

1. No more cars or traffic.
2. No more houses to take care of.
3. No more physical ailments or physical pain.
4. No more grief when loved ones die.
5. Seeing loved ones again.

Worst things about heaven:

1. There is no way of knowing what it will be like.
2. There is no itinerary.
3. There is no return ticket if we don’t like it.
4. Eternity is a long time.
5. There might be no animals there.
No offense, but what makes you think we know anything at all about heaven, or if there even is a heaven? After all, it's not like people who die come back to tell us about it.

BTW, despite the seriousness of my reply, I did enjoy the general humor of your post :)
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
What are the best and worst things about heaven?
I’ll start. There are a lot more things but these are my top 5.

Best things about heaven:

1. No more cars or traffic.
2. No more houses to take care of.
3. No more physical ailments or physical pain.
4. No more grief when loved ones die.
5. Seeing loved ones again.

Worst things about heaven:

1. There is no way of knowing what it will be like.
2. There is no itinerary.
3. There is no return ticket if we don’t like it.
4. Eternity is a long time.
5. There might be no animals there.
I can't imagine that poor road crew in Christian heaven who has to keep repairing that insipid gold road made by gods highway dept stated in Revelations 21:21?

Didn't God know that gold is one the softest metals out there?
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
No offense, but what makes you think we know anything at all about heaven, or if there even is a heaven? After all, it's not like people who die come back to tell us about it.
We can know some things about heaven from scripture, coupled with a little deductive reasoning....
For example:

Best things about heaven:

I believe that heaven is a spiritual world, not a physical world, so that is why there can be:
1. No more cars or traffic.
2. No more houses to take care of.
3. No more physical ailments or physical pain.

And I thank God for that, especially 2 but also 1. So far so good on 3.

4. No more grief when loved ones die.
Grief when loved ones die only happens in this world. Loved ones cannot die in the next world because they are already dead!

5. Seeing loved ones again.
That is wishful thinking, but I think it is also in the Bible and it is in the Baha'i Writings that we will see our loved ones in heaven.

Worst things about heaven:

1. There is no way of knowing what it will be like.
Since nobody has gone to heaven and come back to tell us what it is like.

2. There is no itinerary.
That is just what makes sense to be since itineraries are for getting things done in this world.
I don't think we will need to get things done in heaven although I believe we will still have work to do if we choose to do it.

3. There is no return ticket if we don’t like it.
Since I do not believe in reincarnation, once we die we remain in the spiritual world so there is no coming back.

4. Eternity is a long time.
That speaks for itself.

5. There might be no animals there.
There is no way of knowing that one way or another since nobody has ever been to heaven and back.
BTW, despite the seriousness of my reply, I did enjoy the general humor of your post :)
Thanks, it was intended to be funny as well as serious. I mean I am dead (pardon the pun) serious about the Best and Worst things.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
According to Abdul-Baha there are no animals in heaven;

*Mod edit*
*Mod edit*

No, I do not go along with what Abdu'l-Baha said about there being no animals in heaven. There may or may not be any animals in heaven, I don't know, but it there aren't any it won't be for the unscientific reasons Abdu'l-Baha wrote about. I will have you know that many Baha'is reject what he said and believe there will be animals in heaven.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

joelr

Well-Known Member
What are the best and worst things about heaven?
I’ll start. There are a lot more things but these are my top 5.

Best things about heaven:

1. No more cars or traffic.
2. No more houses to take care of.
3. No more physical ailments or physical pain.
4. No more grief when loved ones die.
5. Seeing loved ones again.

Worst things about heaven:

1. There is no way of knowing what it will be like.
2. There is no itinerary.
3. There is no return ticket if we don’t like it.
4. Eternity is a long time.
5. There might be no animals there.
In the OT Yahweh lived in heaven alone.
When the Christians incorporated Hellenism into their religion to make the NT heaven became a place for the souls of people.
Adopting Greek myths doesn't make them real no matter how many religions use the concept.


Death & Afterlife: Do Christians Follow Plato rather than Jesus or Paul?


Dr James Tabor


5:40
1st Hebrew view of cosmology and afterlife. The dead are sleeping in Sheol, earth is above, the firmament is above that and divides the upper ocean from falling to earth,

7:50 A linear version emerged with time and an end times and final Judgment.
Genesis says you will return to dust.

10:40 Hellenistic period - the Hebrew religion adopts the Greek ideas.


13:35 In the Hellenistic period the common perception is not the Hebrew view, it’s the idea that the soul belongs in Heaven.

14:15 The basic Hellenistic idea is taken into the Hebrew tradition. Salvation in the Hellenistic world is how do you save your soul and get to Heaven. How to transcend the physical body.

Greek tomb “I am a child of earth and starry heaven but heaven alone is my home”

15:46 Does this sound familiar, Christian hymns - “this world is not my home, I’m a pilgrim passing through, Jesus will come and take you home”.
Common theme that comes from the Hellenistic religions. Immortal souls trapped in a human body etc…

47:15 Hellenistic Greek view of cosmology, used in NT

Material world/body is a prison of the soul

Humans are immortal souls, fallen into the darkness of the lower world

Death sets the soul free

No human history, just a cycle of birth, death, rebirth

Immortality is inherent for all humans

Salvation is escape to Heaven, the true home of the immortal soul

Humans are fallen and misplaced

Death is a stripping of the body so the soul can be free

Death is a liberating friend to be welcomed

Asceticism is the moral idea for the soul


49:35 Genesis view

Creation/body very good, procreation good

Humans are “living breathers”, akin to animals, mortal, dust of the earth

Death is dark silent “sleeping in the dust”

Human history moves toward a perfected new age/creation

Salvation is eternal life in the perfected world of the new creation

Humans belong on earth

Resurrection brings a new transformed glorious spiritual body

Death is an enemy

Physical life and sensory pleasures are good
 

chinu

chinu
What are the best and worst things about heaven?
I’ll start. There are a lot more things but these are my top 5.

Best things about heaven:

1. No more cars or traffic.
2. No more houses to take care of.
3. No more physical ailments or physical pain.
4. No more grief when loved ones die.
5. Seeing loved ones again.

Worst things about heaven:

1. There is no way of knowing what it will be like.
2. There is no itinerary.
3. There is no return ticket if we don’t like it.
4. Eternity is a long time.
5. There might be no animals there.
Best things about heaven:
No blah blah blah…

Worst things about heaven:
Questioner lose his/her identity by merging back into heaven.

Why can’t you take it this way ? :)
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Best things about heaven:
No blah blah blah…
I believe that'll be the case.
And you'd better know what you need to know before you go, because there will be no Google.
Worst things about heaven:
Questioner lose his/her identity by merging back into heaven.
I do not believe this will be the case. I think we will retain our selfsame identity, since the soul is the person and the soul goes with us.

Why would God have us go through this life and develop our personality just to have it be lost upon death? That makes no sense to me.
Why would God have us suffer through this life if there was no reward in heaven? I believe that reward accrues to individuals since they all had different lives on earth, thus different rewards..
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
In the OT Yahweh lived in heaven alone.
When the Christians incorporated Hellenism into their religion to make the NT heaven became a place for the souls of people.
Adopting Greek myths doesn't make them real no matter how many religions use the concept.
Adopting myths from the OT doesn't make them real no matter how many religions use the concept. The same applies to the NT.

Baha'u'llah said that God is one and alone, so I believe that, but that doesn't mean that only God is in Heaven, as I believe there are various levels in Heaven, the lower and higher heavens.
Death & Afterlife: Do Christians Follow Plato rather than Jesus or Paul?

Dr James Tabor


5:40
1st Hebrew view of cosmology and afterlife. The dead are sleeping in Sheol, earth is above, the firmament is above that and divides the upper ocean from falling to earth,

7:50 A linear version emerged with time and an end times and final Judgment.
Genesis says you will return to dust.

10:40 Hellenistic period - the Hebrew religion adopts the Greek ideas.

13:35 In the Hellenistic period the common perception is not the Hebrew view, it’s the idea that the soul belongs in Heaven.

14:15 The basic Hellenistic idea is taken into the Hebrew tradition. Salvation in the Hellenistic world is how do you save your soul and get to Heaven. How to transcend the physical body.

Greek tomb “I am a child of earth and starry heaven but heaven alone is my home”

15:46 Does this sound familiar, Christian hymns - “this world is not my home, I’m a pilgrim passing through, Jesus will come and take you home”.
Common theme that comes from the Hellenistic religions. Immortal souls trapped in a human body etc…
Thanks for the video, That explains a lot of things I did not know. I watched the entire video and took notes. I will comment on it as soon as I have time.

I also copied the Hebrew vs Hellenistic chart but since you have listed it below I will comment on it now, presenting the Baha'i view, so what I will write is according to the Baha'i view.
47:15 Hellenistic Greek view of cosmology, used in NT

Material world/body is a prison of the soul
The material world is not a prison, but rather a place where we learn and grow and prepare for life in the spiritual world (aka Heaven).
In a sense the body is a prison for the soul, from which we are set free at the moment of death, like a bird freed from a cage.
Humans are immortal souls, fallen into the darkness of the lower world
Humans are immortal souls who inhabit physical bodies while we live on earth, and those souls take on another form when we die, a spiritual body (congruent with the 'transformation' that takes place that Paul spoke of).
Death sets the soul free
Death sets the soul free from the physical body.
No human history, just a cycle of birth, death, rebirth
There is no cycle. We are born, we live on this Earth, and then we die and cross over to the spiritual world (aka Heaven) and continue to advance spiritually and get closer to God. The following paragraph is congruent with the Baha'i view, although what he refers to as the spirit Baha'i call the soul, which is the human spirit..

421. When the body is no longer able to perform the bodily functions in the natural world that correspond to the spirit’s thoughts and affections, which the spirit has from the spiritual world, man is said to die. This takes place when the respiration of the lungs and the beatings of the heart cease. But the man does not die; he is merely separated from the bodily part that was of use to him in the world, while the man himself continues to live. It is said that the man himself continues to live since man is not a man because of his body but because of his spirit, for it is the spirit that thinks in man, and thought with affection is what constitutes man. Evidently, then, the death of man is merely his passing from one world into another. And this is why in the Word in its internal sense “death” signifies resurrection and continuation of life. Heaven and Hell, p. 351
Immortality is inherent for all humans
All humans are immortal.
Salvation is escape to Heaven, the true home of the immortal soul
Salvation is not escape to Heaven, salvation is nearness to God, be it on Earth or in Heaven.
Heaven is our true home since it is where we will spend eternity. Life on is only a preparation for Heaven.
Humans are fallen and misplaced
We were placed here on Earth for a particular purpose, to learn and grow spiritually.
Humans are not fallen. We were all born good, made in the image of God.
Death is a stripping of the body so the soul can be free
Death sets the soul free from the physical body.
Death is a liberating friend to be welcomed
Death is a liberating friend to be welcomed.

32: O SON OF THE SUPREME! I have made death a messenger of joy to thee. Wherefore dost thou grieve? I made the light to shed on thee its splendor. Why dost thou veil thyself therefrom?
The Hidden Words of Baha'u'llah
Asceticism is the moral ideal for the soul
Asceticism is not the moral ideal for the soul

Asceticism is prohibited; all deeds depend on God's acceptance; to enjoy bounties of the open world, engage in what will profit themselves and others, and marry and have children.
Asceticism - Bahai9
49:35 Genesis view

Creation/body very good, procreation good
That is the same as the Baha'i viewpoint.
Humans are “living breathers”, akin to animals, mortal, dust of the earth
That is the same as the Baha'i viewpoint.
Death is dark silent “sleeping in the dust”
That is not the Baha'i view. When we die, our souls immediately cross over to the spiritual world and take on a new form.

“The world beyond is as different from this world as this world is different from that of the child while still in the womb of its mother. When the soul attaineth the Presence of God, it will assume the form that best befitteth its immortality and is worthy of its celestial habitation.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 157

“The answer to the third question is this, that in the other world the human reality doth not assume a physical form, rather doth it take on a heavenly form, made up of elements of that heavenly realm.”
Selections From the Writings of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, p. 194
Human history moves toward a perfected new age/creation
That is the Baha'i view. It is called the ever-advancing civilization.

All men have been created to carry forward an ever-advancing civilization. The Almighty beareth Me witness: To act like the beasts of the field is unworthy of man. Those virtues that befit his dignity are forbearance, mercy, compassion and loving-kindness towards all the peoples and kindreds of the earth. Say: O friends! Drink your fill from this crystal stream that floweth through the heavenly grace of Him Who is the Lord of Names. Let others partake of its waters in My name, that the leaders of men in every land may fully recognize the purpose for which the Eternal Truth hath been revealed, and the reason for which they themselves have been created.
Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, CIX
Salvation is eternal life in the perfected world of the new creation
Salvation is nearness to God on this Earth and in the next life in the spiritual world (aka Heaven).
We don't have to wait for the perfected world which Baha'is refer to as the Kingdom of God on Earth (aka the new world order).
Humans belong on earth
Humans belong on Earth for their given lifespan. After that they belong in the spiritual world (aka Heaven).
Resurrection brings a new transformed glorious spiritual body
Resurrection brings a new transformed glorious spiritual body which will be suited for life in the spiritual world (aka Heaven).

".... the death of man is merely his passing from one world into another. And this is why in the Word in its internal sense “death” signifies resurrection and continuation of life. Heaven and Hell, p. 351
Death is an enemy
Death is not the enemy. Death is a Messenger of Joy.

32: O SON OF THE SUPREME! I have made death a messenger of joy to thee. Wherefore dost thou grieve? I made the light to shed on thee its splendor. Why dost thou veil thyself therefrom?
The Hidden Words of Baha'u'llah
Physical life and sensory pleasures are good
Physical life and sensory pleasures are acceptable as long as they don't intervene between man and God, and as long as they are what God has allowed us under the law.

“Should a man wish to adorn himself with the ornaments of the earth, to wear its apparels, or partake of the benefits it can bestow, no harm can befall him, if he alloweth nothing whatever to intervene between him and God, for God hath ordained every good thing, whether created in the heavens or in the earth, for such of His servants as truly believe in Him. Eat ye, O people, of the good things which God hath allowed you, and deprive not yourselves from His wondrous bounties. Render thanks and praise unto Him, and be of them that are truly thankful.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 276
 
Last edited:

joelr

Well-Known Member
Adopting myths from the OT doesn't make them real no matter how many religions use the concept. The same applies to the NT.

And it applies to Bahai writings as well.
Baha'u'llah said that God is one and alone, so I believe that, but that doesn't mean that only God is in Heaven, as I believe there are various levels in Heaven, the lower and higher heavens.


Heaven is a myth from Hellenism and is almost 100% mythical. we would need evidence , sufficient evidence to consider it real.
Thanks for the video, That explains a lot of things I did not know. I watched the entire video and took notes. I will comment on it as soon as I have time.

Glad you were able to learn from Dr Tabor. He does good work.
The material world is not a prison, but rather a place where we learn and grow and prepare for life in the spiritual world (aka Heaven).
In a sense the body is a prison for the soul, from which we are set free at the moment of death, like a bird freed from a cage.

Well that is a view the Christians often take. You are giving a Bahai view. I am quite sure both are fiction. After death consciousness ends.





Humans are immortal souls who inhabit physical bodies while we live on earth, and those souls take on another form when we die, a spiritual body (congruent with the 'transformation' that takes place that Paul spoke of).
That is a fiction the Christians took from Hellenism. I am sure it was mythical in Greek religion and is still mythical in whomever is preaching it today.





Death sets the soul free from the physical body.


100% Hellenism. 100% fiction.
There is no cycle. We are born, we live on this Earth, and then we die and cross over to the spiritual world (aka Heaven) and continue to advance spiritually and get closer to God. The following paragraph is congruent with the Baha'i view, although what he refers to as the spirit Baha'i call the soul, which is the human spirit..
Bahai is taking a Hellenbistic view and making a few modifications. HE provided no evidence he was communicating with a deity, but he did make many many errors in prophecies so he is definitely not providing any evidence.
Taking Hellenistic thought and changing it to fit modern new-age beliefs isn't even unique to 1870.





421. When the body is no longer able to perform the bodily functions in the natural world that correspond to the spirit’s thoughts and affections, which the spirit has from the spiritual world, man is said to die. This takes place when the respiration of the lungs and the beatings of the heart cease.
So first, in neurology, this is incorrect. In fact since these writings millions of people have come back from heart and lung stoppage.
It is a specific type of brain death, defined more specifically in neurology that constitutes death.
Bahai was jsut saying what was common knowledge at the time. Further evidence he wasn't speaking to a deity but was making it all up using what was available at the time.



But the man does not die; he is merely separated from the bodily part that was of use to him in the world, while the man himself continues to live. It is said that the man himself continues to live since man is not a man because of his body but because of his spirit, for it is the spirit that thinks in man, and thought with affection is what constitutes man. Evidently, then, the death of man is merely his passing from one world into another. And this is why in the Word in its internal sense “death” signifies resurrection and continuation of life. Heaven and Hell, p. 351
Classic Hellenism and NT theology, total copied mytholgy.

I don't know how you cannot see this. For 1000 years there was no afterlife in Judaism. Then just as the Greeks come up with this new model about souls and humans being eternal beings who return to heaven, they occupy Israel and the NT is all Hellenism.
It embraces the new myths fully. And they stick to all new movements because of the success of Christianity.
Then Aquinas takes more Platonsim and makes Yahweh beyond space and time and so on.

But it's not real. It came from mythology and made people happy because life was really hard. Nothing to do with any truth.
Bahai picked it up as well and it's still mythology. Once hooked in it becomes your identity and probably very hard to realize there is no heaven and it's all from old stories.
So I'm speaking more to people who want to look at it with a critical, rational lens. I do know how you cannot see this.




All humans are immortal.
Is the central theme in Hellenistic Greek thought and completely made up. Just as zeus was in the Classical Greek phase.
Salvation is not escape to Heaven, salvation is nearness to God, be it on Earth or in Heaven.
In Hellenism salvation was getting into the afterlife. By 1800 there were more new-age thoughts about being close to God and so on. As mythical as any other.




Heaven is our true home since it is where we will spend eternity. Life on is only a preparation for Heaven.
Total NT/Hellenistic rip-off


"Salvation is escape to Heaven, the true home of the immortal soul"

We were placed here on Earth for a particular purpose, to learn and grow spiritually.
Humans are not fallen. We were all born good, made in the image of God.
A slight modification of Hellenism, in mid 1800's came Spiritualism, which added that type of thought.






Death sets the soul free from the physical body.

Death is a liberating friend to be welcomed.
Greek mythology



32: O SON OF THE SUPREME! I have made death a messenger of joy to thee. Wherefore dost thou grieve? I made the light to shed on thee its splendor. Why dost thou veil thyself therefrom?
The Hidden Words of Baha'u'llah
Yes, more proof he's just using Greek, NT and modern spiritualism. Not one new idea in all those writings.


Bahá'í Reference Library - The Hidden Words of Bahá’u’lláh
Asceticism is not the moral ideal for the soul


That is the same as the Baha'i viewpoint.

That is the same as the Baha'i viewpoint.

That is not the Baha'i view. When we die, our souls immediately cross over to the spiritual world and take on a new form.
I seriously don't care what the Bahai view is because there isn't one single new idea in the lot, it's a rehash of NT and more modern ideas. Total fraud.
He could have simple said, I'm writing MY ideas down, stuff I like and hope is true. But no, he had to add on the fake revelations.




he womb of its mother. When the soul attaineth the Presence of God, it will assume the form that best befitteth its immortality and is worthy of its celestial habitation.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 157
Mumbo jumbo, did he happen to get any numbers, like the decimal point of pi at 10 trillion? Didn't see that.

http://reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/GWB/gwb-81.html.utf8?query=best|befitteth&action=highlight#pg157
“The answer to the third question is this, that in the other world the human reality doth not assume a physical form, rather doth it take on a heavenly form, made up of elements of that heavenly realm.”
Selections From the Writings of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, p. 194
Brother. That is the theology of Paul and Jesus having a purely spirit body. Also from the Greeks.


Bahá'í Reference Library - Selections From the Writings of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, Pages 193-196
That is the Baha'i view. It is called the ever-advancing civilization.

It's also called, copy Greek myths and pretend they are your own. He probably took them from the NT however.
All men have been created to carry forward an ever-advancing civilization. The Almighty beareth Me witness: To act like the beasts of the field is unworthy of man. Those virtues that befit his dignity are forbearance, mercy, compassion and loving-kindness towards all the peoples and kindreds of the earth. Say: O friends! Drink your fill from this crystal stream that floweth through the heavenly grace of Him Who is the Lord of Names. Let others partake of its waters in My name, that the leaders of men in every land may fully recognize the purpose for which the Eternal Truth hath been revealed, and the reason for which they themselves have been created.
Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, CIX
" forbearance, mercy, compassion and loving-kindness towards all the peoples "

ridiculous. Hillell was teaching this before Jesus? HE didn't claim to be a "messenger of god"??

Gandi taught this, every religion teaches this, Sikhs, Hinduism, secular movements and philosophy teaches this, ancient Greek philosophy teaches this? This is not new? It's extremely stripped down. Read Meditations by M. A.


“Should a man wish to adorn himself with the ornaments of the earth, to wear its apparels, or partake of the benefits it can bestow, no harm can befall him, if he alloweth nothing whatever to intervene between him and God, for God hath ordained every good thing, whether created in the heavens or in the earth, for such of His servants as truly believe in Him. Eat ye, O people, of the good things which God hath allowed you, and deprive not yourselves from His wondrous bounties. Render thanks and praise unto Him, and be of them that are truly thankful.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 276
Yes, its all Greek and modern 1800s spiritualism? Literally ZERO new. Despite they are supposed to be progressive revelation there is not one new thing?

I do not care what he has to say because he is a fraud. Everything he says has been said and is already in other religions.

If he had any type of reasonable evidence it would be a start but he is a complete failure. Old theology, incorrect prophecies. I care about what is actually true. Unless you have new evidence (maybe pray for some new evidence) I do not care about Jesus in Au and his ministry, Joeseph Smith and his Bible or Bahai and his made up revelations.
 
Last edited:

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
And it applies to Bahai writings as well.
That's correct.
Heaven is a myth from Hellenism and is almost 100% mythical. we would need evidence , sufficient evidence to consider it real.
You cannot claim that Heaven is mythical unless you can prove it is mythical, although you can hold that opinion.
I cannot claim that Heaven is real unless I can prove it is real. I cannot prove it is real so I only hold it as a belief.

There is no verifiable evidence that Heaven exists but I have sufficient evidence to believe it exists, although I have no idea what it will be like.
Well that is a view the Christians often take. You are giving a Bahai view. I am quite sure both are fiction. After death consciousness ends.
You are free to believe that until you die and realize you are fully conscious, existing in a different kind of body.
That is a fiction the Christians took from Hellenism. I am sure it was mythical in Greek religion and is still mythical in whomever is preaching it today.
It does not matter where Christians got it, it is either true or false.
You keep claiming things are mythical but unless you can prove that it is only your personal opinion.
100% Hellenism. 100% fiction.
Unless you can prove that it is fictional that is only your personal opinion.
I don't know how you cannot see this. For 1000 years there was no afterlife in Judaism. Then just as the Greeks come up with this new model about souls and humans being eternal beings who return to heaven, they occupy Israel and the NT is all Hellenism.
Why should I care if there was no afterlife belief in Judaism? I don't care.
I only care what Baha'u'llah revealed because I consider it accurate.

Why does it matter if it is Hellenism? That is just a distraction from the only important point -- it is either true or false.
Once hooked in it becomes your identity and probably very hard to realize there is no heaven and it's all from old stories.
There is an afterlife and you will find that out when you die. Till then, there is no point arguing about it, since it cannot be proven either way.
So I'm speaking more to people who want to look at it with a critical, rational lens. I do know how you cannot see this.
Speak away. If you think that all your knowledge of religious history is going to get you anywhere you are sorely mistaken.
I am extremely fortunate to have never been endowed with such knowledge, which is why I am not confused by it and can see the truth.

I see there is nothing to discuss here. It is just more of the same soapbox stuff. There is nothing critical or rational about it.
Silly me, thinking I could actually have a discussion with you. I guess I never give up my optimism.
 
Last edited:

joelr

Well-Known Member
That's correct.

You cannot claim that Heaven is mythical unless you can prove it is mythical, although you can hold that opinion.
1)The burden of proof rests on the claim, you have to show heaven exists

2) I said it's mythical, which it is, we have proof, it started in Hellenism which is a myth.

3)Just because Christianity adopted Greek myths doesn't give them any more realism. If Christianity adopted Middle Earth as a real place it wouldn't make it any more real

4)the entire system the NT adopted is all Greek and all from a myth. The Hellenistic influenced myths include:

Elusinian Mysteries = Mycenaean + Hellenistic


Bacchic Mysteries = Phoenician + Hellenistic


Mysteries of Attis and Cybele = Phrygian + Hellenistic


Mysteries of Baal = Anatolian + Hellenistic


Mysteries of Mithras = Persian + Hellenistic


Mysteries of Isis and Osiris = Egyptian + Hellenistic


Christian Mysteries = Jewish + Hellenistic


ALL before Christianity. You cannot special plead and say one thing from myths is real, Christianity is the last of the Greek influenced mystery religions. Isis and Osirus are myth, the Greek myths about heaven are also myth, started as myth and reman myth.
Without evidence they are myth.




There is no verifiable evidence that Heaven exists but I have sufficient evidence to believe it exists, although I have no idea what it will be like.
You have no evidence that heaven exists. You have a man making a claim and a lot of Greek mythology. Nothing there constitutes good evidence.

By "good evidence" you mean you really want it to be real. Not evidence.




You are free to believe that until you die and realize you are fully conscious, existing in a different kind of body.
The most common apologetic used when a fundamentalist loses an argument.

I was not fully conscious before I was born. I was not conscious during surgery.
Neuroscience agrees a soul is an antiquated myth.
We have an existing explanation for how consciousness emerged, it has nothing to do with a soul.

This explains you have a fear of death and use confirmation bias to hold this ancient folk tale belief. It's understandable.



It does not matter where Christians got it, it is either true or false.
You keep claiming things are mythical but unless you can prove that it is only your personal opinion.
Of course it does. The Christians didn't say they were borrowing ideas. They framed it as if it were all from Jesus telling Paul and so on.
Which we know is not true, the writers used Hellenism as did all the mystery religions.

These are not real, the gods are myth, the theology is not a revelation because the gods do not exist.
heaven and souls comes from myth. Zeus and the Classical Greek gods are also myth.
The video of Dr Tabor shows it all comes from Greek mythology.

If your gripe is "maybe Greek mythology is real:, then I don't care. You, do not care about what is true, I do. Enjoy making up your fantasy realm.


myths.....

Elusinian Mysteries = Mycenaean + Hellenistic


Bacchic Mysteries = Phoenician + Hellenistic


Mysteries of Attis and Cybele = Phrygian + Hellenistic


Mysteries of Baal = Anatolian + Hellenistic


Mysteries of Mithras = Persian + Hellenistic


Mysteries of Isis and Osiris = Egyptian + Hellenistic

when they go here.....still not real


Christian Mysteries = Jewish + Hellenistic



Unless you can prove that it is fictional that is only your personal opinion.
It's proven that it's from fiction. Please link to a peer reviewed paper that suggests Greek mythology was true.

Genesis is using Mesopotamian stories. Also myth. Christian fundamentalists can make the same argument "oh but maybe those were all real too so Genesis is real..."

Yeah, don't care, that is confirmation bias plus denial. I don't have to provide evidence Greek myths are real, they are Greek myths.

But it provides me with another definition of confirmation bias.

"Yeah Greek myths are all mythology, except the part about people having a soul that belongs in heaven"
Confirmation bias.

Why? Because you grew up hearing about these myths as if they were real because Christianity evangelized and spread them around as if they were true. They are not and they were made up by the same Greek writers who made up all the rest of the Greek myths and claimed Osirus was sending revelations. Now, to make your story work, Osirus has to be real.
]





Why should I care if there was no afterlife belief in Judaism? I don't care.
I only care what Baha'u'llah revealed because I consider it accurate.
Why would you look at evidence in a critical way?
Why would you look at what Yahweh says and notice it's at first the same beliefs as other Mesopotamian nations?
And then after 1000 years and after the Hellenistic Greeks occupy Israel, a new religion emerges with those exact Greek beliefs?

And this exact thing already happened in several other nations.

And now it's happening in Judaism, a new movement arises with savior demigod who can get you oo heaven, where you belong according to Greek myth.
Because it's ridiculously clear and obvious evidence that there is no Yahweh and they are following cultural beliefs.
To the T. You couldn't make a better model of syncretism.

Bahai, who does not know about this history, assumes the NT is correct and makes up his new religion based on this and Islam.

Because you care if your beliefs are true or not and you look at all evidence rationally and with a skeptical and logical eye.


But you do not. Any myth being true is not logical, the most probable reality is these are syncretic myths passed down from cultures.

Even if we had NONE of this evidence it would make most sense.
With this historical evidence it's incredibly obvious.

Also, no god, angel, revelation, supernatural, spiritual, anything has ever been demonstrated.

So, if you cared about what is true that is why. But, you do not care. You only care at using confirmation bias to make your beliefs true.

So go do that. I'm only answering for anyone who is interested in looking into where truth leads. Look at all the variables and come to a non-bias conclusion for yourself.
For fundamentalists, not interested.


Why does it matter if it is Hellenism? That is just a distraction from the only important point -- it is either true or false.

Because Christians believe it comes from Jesus and God, it does not, it's syncretic mythology from Hellenism. Which supports the idea that it's fiction.




There is an afterlife and you will find that out when you die. Till then, there is no point arguing about it, since it cannot be proven either way.
According to mythology there is. Unfortunately there is no evidence these myths are anything but pure fiction. Souls and afterlife, pure fantasy, fiction, no evidence of probability whatsoever.




Speak away. If you think that all your knowledge of religious history is going to get you anywhere you are sorely mistaken.
So now you speak for everyone here and make definitive claims about everyone's beliefs.

More evidence you are completely wrong.

Knowledge of religious history has helped to see the bigger picture. Only one with confirmation bias would hand wave away historical information on a subject they think they already know everything about.

Odd that you seem to know what information on a subject will definitively bring ME, more incredible confirmation bias. You know SO MUCH that even knowledge I have won't get me anywhere. Wow, that's beyond bias and right into delusion land.




I am extremely fortunate to have never been endowed with such knowledge, which is why I am not confused by it and can see the truth.
Brilliant, getting some gems here. Now we got this, I'll paraphrase:


"I have such little knowledge of historical religion that it's much easier for me to fool myself with confirmation bias and the delusional belief that lack of knowledge allows me to see the truth"

could also be:

"I am extremely fortunate I don't care at all about actual knowledge and logical, rational thought, which is why my fundamentalist attitude shows me "the truth"..."

or
"why would I want to put my scripture to a test with actual historical knowledge and skeptical thought when I already see the truth"


y'know what? You don't. Truth is not for you. Confirmation bias is clearly the way.







I see there is nothing to discuss here. It is just more of the same soapbox stuff. There is nothing critical or rational about it.
Silly me, thinking I could actually have a discussion with you. I guess I never give up my optimism.
No there is nothing critical or rational about it. Because I am using critical and rational thought and you are denying it and clearly showing you are not interested. You are only interested in confirmation bias.


The "soapbox stuff" is a lie. You are saying a lie.
Please demonstrate where I am doing "soapbox stuff", I am explaining why the evidece sucks, and using historical knoweldge.


Which you then try to gaslight me by calling it "soapbox stuff".


Then you try guilt tripping - "silly me thinking I could have a discussion" No, you have not thought that. Not when you copy/pasted my post back at me uncalled for.
Not when I brought up the history of a concept and you deny and act as if it cannot be relevant.
Not when I talk history and you say I am confused by it (more gaslighting) and that's why you can see the truth.

Not when you gaslight me again and say " If you think that all your knowledge of religious history is going to get you anywhere you are sorely mistaken."

There is no call to put down my knowledge. Yet you do.
There is no call to gaslight someone multiple times, then at act if it's YOU who is trying to have a discussion. That would be toxic.
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The best thing about heaven is that it's a place of proximity towards God. The wives of believers are pure, holy, bright, and luminous and everything brings you closer to God and everything there is connected to bringing an experience of God.

The worst thing is that it's too late to impress, please, or work for the sake of God. It's a reward and the trials in this world if treated it the right way would bring seeds that continuously grow there, however, there is no more seeds to plant.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
What are the best and worst things about heaven?
I’ll start. There are a lot more things but these are my top 5.
Best things about heaven:
1. No more cars or traffic.
2. No more houses to take care of.
3. No more physical ailments or physical pain.
4. No more grief when loved ones die.
5. Seeing loved ones again.
Worst things about heaven:
1. There is no way of knowing what it will be like.
2. There is no itinerary.
3. There is no return ticket if we don’t like it.
4. Eternity is a long time.
5. There might be no animals there.
1. Heaven will be with Jesus governing over Earth with Jesus - Rev. 20:6; 5:9-10 - serving as kings and priests over earthly subjects.
2. Yes, the itinerary is working with Jesus to help make Earth a paradisical Earth as Eden originally was.
3. Will like Heaven so No need for a return ticket.
4. Yes, immortal life is for all eternity.
5. Right, there will be No animal there, but the meek who will inherit the Earth will have animals - Isaiah 65:25; Hosea 2:18
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
1. Heaven will be with Jesus governing over Earth with Jesus - Rev. 20:6; 5:9-10 - serving as kings and priests over earthly subjects.
2. Yes, the itinerary is working with Jesus to help make Earth a paradisical Earth as Eden originally was.
3. Will like Heaven so No need for a return ticket.
4. Yes, immortal life is for all eternity.
5. Right, there will be No animal there, but the meek who will inherit the Earth will have animals - Isaiah 65:25; Hosea 2:18
Earth is not Heaven, and it was never intended to be like Heaven.
Earth is Earth and Heaven is Heaven.
Immortal life is for all eternity in Heaven, not on Earth.
The physical body is not immortal so it cannot exist on Earth forever.
There will be a Kingdom of God on Earth, but it will be for people who are living on a physical body when that Kingdom is built.

When we die.......

Ecclesiastes 12:7 and the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.

The physical body cannot exist in the Kingdom of God in Heaven. That is why it needs to be transformed into a spiritual body.

1 Corinthians 15 New Living Translation

40 There are also bodies in the heavens and bodies on the earth. The glory of the heavenly bodies is different from the glory of the earthly bodies.

44 They are buried as natural human bodies, but they will be raised as spiritual bodies. For just as there are natural bodies, there are also spiritual bodies.

50 What I am saying, dear brothers and sisters, is that our physical bodies cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. These dying bodies cannot inherit what will last forever.

51 But let me reveal to you a wonderful secret. We will not all die, but we will all be transformed!
 
Top